[SteveD (OP)]

Wednesday February 11, 2009

I have been a vegetarian, later a vegan and then a raw, organic, vegan for 20 years now...I'm not rigid about it and it's not done for moral purposes but rather for physical and emotional health purposes. I used to weigh 50 pounds more than I do and I lost it 20 years ago...and it ain't coming back on in this lifetime!

But that's not what my question is about.

I grow my own wheatgrass, in a beautiful compost of organic coconut shavings from Sri Lanki!
I drink it one, two or three times a day from 2 to 8 ounces at a time.
It is the most healing substance i have ever seen in my life.
I wanted to know if anyone else has positive experiences with wheatgrass

Steve D.
San Francisco CA, USA 

[dentstudent]

SKEPTOID #6

The other day, I was getting a pineapple smoothie for lunch, when I happened to notice a poster extolling the virtues of wheatgrass juice. I didn't know too much about it, except that I've heard a lot of people talk about it as if it's the second coming. So out of curiosity, I began reading.

My friends, the English language does not contain adequate hyperbole to do justice to the tons of manure printed on this poster. If the average person can take even half of this poster seriously, then the ignorance and gullibility of the general public is much worse than even I would have ever guessed.

The poster was a list of claims, almost all of which centered around chlorophyll, of which it said wheatgrass juice is a rich source. Chlorophyll, as you know, is used by plants to synthesize proteins and sugars, using radiation from the sun to power a chemical reaction, converting carbon dioxide from the air and water from the ground into proteins and sugars, exhausting oxygen as a waste byproduct. Humans and other animals, not surprisingly, don't work this way. We get our proteins and sugars by eating food; our bodies have no special use for chlorophyll.

Now, I'm not saying that there's anything unhealthy or bad about wheatgrass juice. It's probably at least as healthy as just about any other plant that you could put in your juicer and blend into green syrup. I probably wouldn't rate wheatgrass as high on the nutrition scale as a proper vegetable, but I doubt very much that there's any harm in it. However, wheatgrass juice proponents don't merely claim that it's healthy. They've assembled the most outrageous list of vague medical conditions that it cures, and all sorts of types of wellness that it supposedly promotes. Since these claims are all entirely unsubstantiated, and sound far fetched to say the least, this is certainly a product you should approach skeptically. Let's take a look at some of these claims.

Wheat grass is high in oxygen like all green plants that contain chlorophyll, and the brain functions at an optimal level in a high-oxygen environment.

While it's true that if you cut off the oxygen supply to your brain, its function will be somewhat less than optimal, it's not true at all that chlorophyll is a good source of oxygen. I suggest you continue to rely on your lungs for that, which are probably better, since you don't have leaves. All types of chlorophyll have only trace amounts of oxygen. Chlorophyll is a carbohydrate, thus its makeup is overwhelmingly carbon and hydrogen. The molecule has as many as 127 hydrogen and carbon atoms, but only 5 or 6 atoms of oxygen, 4 of nitrogen, and one lonely magnesium atom. Incidentally, this also refutes another claim: that the high magnesium content of chlorophyll builds enzymes that restore your sex hormones. Interesting, given that enzymes are proteins made of amino acids, which contain no magnesium at all. I have no idea whether a single atom of magnesium restores sex hormones, whatever that means, but if so that's one hell of an atom. If you want magnesium, take a vitamin pill. If you want oxygen, take a breath. If you want sex hormones, get a girlfriend.

Wheatgrass juice has been proven to cleanse the lymph system, building the blood, restoring balance in the body, removing toxic metals from the cells, nourishing the liver and kidneys and restoring vitality.

The grammatical errors are from the poster, not from me. Let's take these one at a time. First, the claim that it's been "proven" to do any of these things. Notice that these claims are very vaguely worded: "restores balance", and "builds the blood". This is deliberate. If they tried to be specific, they would get into trouble with the FDA. If you make a claim that a product is intended to diagnose, mitigate, treat, cure, or prevent a specific disease, and your product has not been tested and is therefore unregulated, you're in violation of the law (21 U.S.C. 343(r)(6)). The wheatgrass people of course can't actually submit their product for testing against any particular diseases, because of course it would fail. So they are relegated to making only vague, untestable claims like it "builds the blood" and "restores balance".

As for whether the ingestion of wheatgrass will lower the levels of toxic metals in your cells, I wasn't able to find any research that supports this. However I did find research where living wheatgrass was found to be one of the grasses most susceptible to the absorption of zinc and cadmium from the soil through its root system, so it's more likely to be contaminated with these metals. If lowering your toxic metal levels is important to you, wheatgrass is the last thing you should put on your shopping list. And, of course, this is all founded on the assumption that you have toxic metal problems that need to be addressed. Before you seek out quack remedies for this unusual illness, first find out from a medical professional that this is indeed a problem you have, and don't go only on the assurance of a health food store owner who wants to sell you something. Probably the best thing you can do is stop chewing the lead paint off your windowsills.

It contains most of the vitamins and minerals needed for human maintenance, including the elusive B12.

Sounds compelling! But it sounded less compelling when I turned away from the poster, and looked at the store's own nutritional facts chart. The only vitamins present in a 2-ounce shot of wheatgrass juice are 15% of your daily allowance of Vitamin C, and 20% of iron. The rest of the vitamins and minerals, "elusive B12" included? Zeros, all the way down the board. The bottom line is that a shot of wheatgrass juice offers far less nutrition than a single Flintstones vitamin pill.

I would welcome a scientific test of wheatgrass juice. I challenge wheatgrass proponents to pick any supposed benefit of wheatgrass juice, and substantiate it in a real test. And by a test I don't mean a report from a hippie whose energy fields have been rejuvenated. I mean one of their claims that some sick people might actually believe and are avoiding important medical treatment as a result, such as the claim that wheatgrass juice will reduce high blood pressure. That's easy enough to test in a real, peer reviewed, double blind clinical trial. Take notice that the wheatgrass proponents have not done such a test, and there's probably a very good reason they've avoided it. Approach far fetched claims with skepticism, especially those that have not been, or cannot be, substantiated.

In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my pineapple and banana smoothies, no wheatgrass juice, bee pollen, or extract of ginseng needed.

[SteveD (OP)]

Skeptoid #6

LOL...I love that. I, too, would welcome some objective testing of wheatgrass. I don't like the left wing, hippie, don't want to work, gonna drop dead from anemia,angry-at-your-Daddy-attitude I see from most vegans either...but I do like what works.

There's no money in testing though, so no one will do it.

[SteveD (OP)]

Dentstudent,

Been thinking about your outraged cry for testing for the truth of wheat grass.

For the last 19 years I have not been able to smell. I went to five doctors including the head of Ear nose and Throat at Emory University, a research medical college in Atlanta Ga.There I was told that just under 1% of the US population cannot smell. That they did not know what caused it, that there was no known therapy and that I would just have to live with it. Two years ago I began ingesting large quantities of wheatgrass while being monitored by an AMA Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon, every single week, for two years. We titrated dosages often and to our mutual astonishment my sense of smell returned, not fully, but at it's best, at about 70% it's capacity...(best guess)

I don't like quacks, frauds and hustlers and I don't want to be duped by some Jim Jones-esque smooth talker trying to get my money.
But, on the other hand I don't want to go to the other extreme, like the tobacco manufacturers did in the 60's through the 90's, and say "because there is no effective testing that there is no correlation between cancer and smoking"

Steve D.

[dentstudent]

Dentstudent,

Been thinking about your outraged cry for testing for the truth of wheat grass.

For the last 19 years I have not been able to smell. I went to five doctors including the head of Ear nose and Throat at Emory University, a research medical college in Atlanta Ga.There I was told that just under 1% of the US population cannot smell. That they did not know what caused it, that there was no known therapy and that I would just have to live with it. Two years ago I began ingesting large quantities of wheatgrass while being monitored by an AMA Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon, every single week, for two years. We titrated dosages often and to our mutual astonishment my sense of smell returned, not fully, but at it's best, at about 70% it's capacity...(best guess)

I don't like quacks, frauds and hustlers and I don't want to be duped by some Jim Jones-esque smooth talker trying to get my money.
But, on the other hand I don't want to go to the other extreme, like the tobacco manufacturers did in the 60's through the 90's, and say "because there is no effective testing that there is no correlation between cancer and smoking"

Steve D.

I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  []. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

BTW - Skeptoid is a podcast so I do not claim any of the intellectual rights in my above post.....

[SteveD (OP)]

I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  []. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

If I dropped an anvil on my foot, and there was no control to make an objective comparison, would it still hurt?

There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

I grow my own, it's free.

[_Stefan_]

I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  []. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

If I dropped an anvil on my foot, and there was no control to make an objective comparison, would it still hurt?

Whether an effect occurred is not really the issue in this case. It's whether the anvil (or the wheatgrass) caused that effect. You can insist until you're blue in the face that wheatgrass cured you, but there are too many variables to consider, eliminate and study, before a conclusion can be made.

Just because A occurred before or coincided with Z, does not mean A caused Z. You must also consider B,C,D,E,F,G etc.

Without intense scientific investigation, all you have is anecdote. Anecdote can never equal scientific evidence, and no conclusions can be drawn from it.

There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

I grow my own, it's free.

Are the water, fertilizer, growth medium, equipment, time and effort etc, that you use to grow it, also free?

[SteveD (OP)]

Thursday February 12, 2009

Due to poor gardening planning I had an inadequate supply of  daily wheatgrass today. As a consequence my sense of smell diminished greatly. Tonight the lady I'm seeing visited told me there was a strong gas smell in the apartment. The Fire Department came with 13 men, two trucks and an SUV with axes and oxygen and corrected the situation.

This is an anecdote. It is also true. Only a fool would not learn from an anecdote because there wasn't any scientific evidence.

[_Stefan_]

You keep assuming that wheatgrass is the cause of your smell "cure" when in fact you have not isolated it from thousands of other possibilities.

Further, how do I know you have not made your gas story up?

[SteveD (OP)]

Thursday February 19, 2209

I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass. Also, that since wheatgrass's real effectiveness is due to it's 'living' quality, that is, (unlike spinach which has been harvested 1-7 days before consumption or broccoli which can be up to 2 weeks) it's still in the soil growing, that no pharmaceutical company would go to the expense of doing double blind testing on large groups of people, because the other types of wheatgrass delivery systems  that are currently commercially viable (powder or frozen) destroy the 'living' quality and render it uselessly inneffective.
  Finally, even commercial juice companies who sell over the counter wheatgrass, juiced on location, uses wheatgrass which has not seen the light of the sun or been watered in up to 7 days, so it's potency is diminished, significantly, and that the only really effective way to use wheatgrass is to grow it yourself. So, there is simply no money in it...

I don't like the crazy sounding and outrageous claims I've read about wheatgrass. It sounds irresponsible to me. But, as there are no claims for wheat grass being harmful, I'm not going to go to the other extreme and practice 'contempt prior to investigation' either.


Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

Thursday February 19, 2009

After not having wheatgrass for seven days, due to poor garden planning, I now have a fresh supply. On taking

8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for breakfast,

carefully weighed and measured on a digital scale, I noticed , within minutes, an increased sensitivity to temperature and moisture, olfactorily. This usually precedes the return of my sense of smell. Tommorrow I will have:

8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for breakfast,
8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for dinner, 

and will report any changes I observe...


Steve D.

[_Stefan_]

What do you think you're achieving by that? You can't even isolate your response from the placebo effect.

[SteveD (OP)]

Friday February 20, 2009,

As planned I took two 8 ounce glasses of freshly grown and cut wheatgrass today, whereas Thursday I had one 8 ounce glass and Wednesday I had no wheatgrass (see Food plan below). My sense of smell reappeared, as expected. It is fairly muted at this point, but is beginning to function slightly, for which I'm grateful. What I'm noticing is that while the wheatgrass is gradually supplanting the green drink and my sense of smell increases that I'm feeling a bit weak which I attribute to the decrease in calories associated with the green drink (which includes an avocado in the recipe). I also experienced a 1.2 pounds loss in weight. My plan tomorrow, Saturday, is the same as Friday but I'm going to add 1 ounce raw almonds at every meal

Wednesday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink

Thursday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 8 ounces wheatgrass
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink

Friday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 8 ounces wheatgrass
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon,8 ounces wheatgrass

[Madidus_Scientia]

I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread

[SteveD (OP)]

Saturday February 21, 2009

The original question on this thread was "(Does) anyone else has positive experiences with wheatgrass". So far, no one has any experience.
It seems there are a number of people here, though, with academic and/or professional clinical experience.
What might be useful is some constructive ideas on how to test for the potentialities of wheatgrass in a cost effective way.

I like the challenge Dentstudent put forth  "I mean one of their claims that some sick people might actually believe"

Steve D.

[CliffC]

I am new to this forum and was introduced to it my SteveD, who is one of my friends.  I have also been drinking wheatgrass on and off for several years, and lately have been growing trays at my home for my own juicing.

I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind.  I am not a vegetarian and eat pretty much a regular diet otherwise, but I think as a supplement it cannot be beat.

Why do people have so much skepticism regarding the efficacy wheatgrass which is a completely natural organic product and has not been shown to cause any harm, and there is a lot of experiential claims ("anecdotes") regarding its benefits?  I believe more study is merited regarding it's effectiveness and health benefits, and there hasn't been any good studies so far regarding this.  There may not be any big study since there is no money in a product where you can grow your own high quality wheatgrass for about $1.00 a tray or less.

I am also a physician/MD and have worked on many research projects in medicine and science, and believe in the scientific method.  However if we all wait for more evidence to produce itself convincingly regarding health benefits or not, it may be beyond our lifetimes and therefore too late to help us.

I know what works for me and therefore am coming from an experiential or pragmatic viewpoint in this case. If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  That and there being no major health detriment to using the product looks like a winner to me.

People had no idea regarding health benefits of fish oils, antioxidants, and other substances until they were more studied and their benefits "advertised" to the public.  People are just recently more recognizing the benefits of "whole" foods as opposed to processed foods.  It takes a long time for people to change their habits.  It's not all science, it's partly people's behavior and belief systems.  Why not put down the double cheeseburger and fries?  Because it tastes good, that's all that matters to many people, even me once in awhile...

-Cliff

[Madidus_Scientia]

From skeptoid:

And by a test I don't mean a report from a hippie whose energy fields have been rejuvenated.

From CliffC:

I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind.

^ just something I found amusing

SteveD I really hope you haven't made up this new account in the name of CliffC to try and add credibility to your case.

Anyway CliffC the reason people are so skeptical is because there is no evidence to support the claims that wheatgrass juice is akin to a magical healing potion. And you say experiments aren't being done because there's no money in it? How do you figure that? The wheatgrass industry even without scientific evidence backing it is big money, I see ads for wheatgrass juice all the time. And as Brian Dunning said:

Take notice that the wheatgrass proponents have not done such a test, and there's probably a very good reason they've avoided it.

If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  That and there being no major health detriment to using the product looks like a winner to me.

Stefan already said it, but it seems you missed it.

You can't even isolate your response from the placebo effect.

Of course being a doctor you should know all about the placebo effect.

[Bored chemist]

I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread

I didn't realise it was lost.

I'm intrigued by this "I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass."
Does that mean that your friend doesn't think it's possible to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.

Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.
When you have the ersults please come back adn tell us about how this product made a difference to your sense of smell.
If you can find a few more anosmics to take part in this experiment then you might find something significant.

[SteveD (OP)]

I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread

I didn't realise it was lost.

I'm intrigued by this "I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass."
Does that mean that your friend doesn't think it's possible to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.

Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.
When you have the ersults please come back adn tell us about how this product made a difference to your sense of smell.
If you can find a few more anosmics to take part in this experiment then you might find something significant.

Bored Chemist,

I am grateful for your positive input which is what this thread was designed to create.
I also appreciate the new word anosmic.
I'm not sure what a 'specialist kit' is, and would like to know.



During this current anecdotal episode what I have observed is, after having no wheatgrass for 7 days, that:
Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.


But most importantly, I am very interested to know how:

"Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smell is progressing."

If you would elucidate I would be grateful.

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

I have also been drinking wheatgrass on and off for several years, and lately have been growing trays at my home for my own juicing.

I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind. 

I am also a physician/MD and have worked on many research projects in medicine and science, and believe in the scientific method. 

I believe more study is merited regarding it's effectiveness and health benefits, and there hasn't been any good studies so far regarding this. 

I know what works for me and therefore am coming from an experiential or pragmatic viewpoint in this case. If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  .

-Cliff

Cliff C.,

It's good to see you here. Welcome. I appreciate your credentials,  your experience and  your absence of rancor on this incendiary topic. What do you think of Bored Chemist's idea?
I like it. Maybe some other substance besides gas, though? Don't want to be more noxious to my neighbors than necessary.

Steve D.

.... to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.
Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.