[SteveD (OP)]

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

It is impossible for me not to notice a pattern here.

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

Procedure:

This morning, I measured one drop of peppermint into 8 pints of water. I then poured 4 ounces in a tea cup . In another tea cup I put 4 ounces of plain water. I identified them to my partner. I placed them in another room.  I left. She switched them around. I reentered and tried to identify them. I did this 3 times. 2 out of 3 times I was able to identify which cup was the titrated peppermint.

Then I consumed 12 ounces of wheatgrass and repeated the above experiment. I was able to identify 3 out of 3 times.

Observations:

I think I need to titrate the peppermint bowl more, or use more trials, or both, until I get a 50% ratio of being able to identify, or not, the titrated bowl, to get a clearer control.

[SteveD (OP)]

Monday observations:

5 incidences of smell before first wheatgrass
9 incidences of smel after first 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,one incidence of taste
9  incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving, one incidence of taste
11 after incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,



Total results for the last  eleven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday,with three 12 ounce, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste


There was a 1700% increase in the reported incidences of being able to smell over yesterdays report

[Bored chemist]

Steve,
That's a reasonable start at a measurment of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass.
It's possible, indeed quite likely, that your brain is playing tricks on you  (don't take that personally- it happens to everyone).
When you take the grass you expect to have a better sense of smell (and in the same way, when you don't you, expect to lose your sense of smell).
That expectation is enough for the brain to trun up and down the sensitivity to the signals it gets from your nose.

In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get soemeone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the pepermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.

Incidentally, this observation "Clearly the olfactory sense is diminishing. Starting tomorrow, Sunday, there will begin a fresh new supply of wheatgrass"
sugests that the effect is psychosomatic- the placebo effect tends to wear off whereas real healing tends to continue.
 

[_Stefan_]

How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.

[Bored chemist]

How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.

You can't so you cheat.
You get something that's fairly similar- perhaps another grass. Then you add something to both of them that covers the taste and smell.

Pernod and wheatgrass anyone?

[SteveD (OP)]

Tuesday observations:

Made a breakthrough between the second and third servings of wheatgrass. The sensing of smell, instead of being discrete incidences, suddenly became continuous.
 
After 7 incidences of being able to smell before the first serving of 12 ounces
          9 incidences of being able to smell after the first serving of 12 ounces
         11 incidences of being able to smell after the second serving of 12 ounces...Breakthrough

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.

[SteveD (OP)]

That's a reasonable start at a measurement of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass. In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get someone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the peppermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.

Total results for the last thirteen days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday, with three 12 ounce servings, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Tuesday, with three 12 ounce servings, I 27 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds before breakthrough into continuous smell

Bored Chemist,

I appreciate your feed back. I don't think that a double blind experiment with 'fake' wheatgrass would be practical, as time is limited.

I think all good experiments probably start with someone noticing, anecdotally, a repeated pattern and then wanting to see if that can be demonstrated accurately to others.
As my purpose was to restore my sense of smell, and in the last two weeks I've done that to my satisfaction, I'm done.

The peppermint testing seems useful if I want to try to communicate to other folks what I've found useful to me.

Thanks,

Steve D.

[_Stefan_]

If all you wanted was anecdote, why did you start this thread on a science forum?

[BenV]

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.

If a large enough dose can make you acutely ill, wouldn't you worry about the cumulative effects of several smaller doses?  Do we know what active chemicals are in wheatgrass?  Any idea how the body deals with and excretes these chemicals?  If something is to be treated as, or considered medicinal, these are really the sorts of things we should hope to find out.  You could be slowly poisoning yourself.

[SteveD (OP)]

Why did you start this thread on a science forum?

Stefen,

This is much more what I was expecting, frankly...

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.

If a large enough dose can make you acutely ill, wouldn't you worry about the cumulative effects of several smaller doses?  Do we know what active chemicals are in wheatgrass?  Any idea how the body deals with and excretes these chemicals?  If something is to be treated as, or considered medicinal, these are really the sorts of things we should hope to find out.  You could be slowly poisoning yourself.

The research I did before I started experimenting with large doses of wheatgrass was to talk with:

1) the two most financially successful owners of vegetarian restauarants in the world
2) the two most financially successful wheatgrass growers in the Bay area
3) the quality control expert in the largest organic wholesaler in the Bay area
4) an Ear, Nose and Throat Surgeon (about the olfactory possibilities)
5) the founder of the most successful food addiction program in the world
6) the founder of the largest natural foods spa in the US
7) the most successful vegan chef in the Bay area 

to see if there was an upper limit to the usage of wheatgrass. All consistently said "No". I found that not to be true. At three 16 ounce servings/day there is, in my body, a gastrointestinal reaction as well as cramping in my calves.

After not being able to smell for 19 years and now being able to successfully do that the last two years, if I maintain the dosage, it's hard for me to imagine that something that is that healing and regenerative could be poisonous. As for the reaction two days ago, I think my body would probably react similarly to too much H20 if put in too quickly.

Thanks for the intelligent, non-rancorous dialogue.

Steve D.

[Bored chemist]

Let's face it, 3 pounds of most things in a day would be pushing it.
Incidentally, most of the experts you cite could hardly be viewed as "neutral", particulalry the grower of the stuff.
Hope your sense of smell continues to improve.

So far there's no scientific evidence for the wheatgrass doing anything (apart, perhaps, from making money for the seller/ grower).
The improved sense of smell and the gastric upset might have been coincidentlal or psychosomatic.
I realise that doing the proper testing would be difficult so I can't really blame you for not doing it; just as long as you don't go saying that these observations are any sort of evidence supporting the hypothesis that wheatgrass improves your sense of smell.

[SteveD (OP)]

So far there's no scientific evidence for the wheatgrass doing anything (apart, perhaps, from making money for the seller/ grower).

LOL...Actually, since there was no control to compare it to, we're not even sure of that!

[SteveD (OP)]

Total results for the last eighteen days of observations:

Thursday, February 19, 2009 with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday, February 24, 2009, with three 8 once servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, February 27, 2009 with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday, March 2, 2009, with three 12 ounce servings, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Tuesday, with three 12 ounce servings, I 27 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds before breakthrough into continuous smell
Wednesday three 12 ounce glasses of wheatgrass. Smell is continuous

Thursday March 5 ,2009 one 12 ounce serving of wheat grass...supply ends.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday no wheat grass.
Monday March 9th supply replenishes, by the third meal of the day. One serving of 12 ounces.

A number of things have happened these last five days.

My sense of smell that was continuous has completely stopped working. But it's much much more incendiary than that.

I could not only smell better prior to last Thursday's exhaustion of wheatgrass supply but I could see and hear better. My (and I hate to admit that I have this) arthritis in my knees and L-5 was better. My skin was more oily. My bronchial passages were clearer. My weight had dropped down. My digestion was better. My heart, lungs worked more smoothly and mind (As Cliff C. noted with his experience) was clearer, before I ran out of my unusually high dosages of wheat grass.

Is there scientific evidence using single or double blind testing? No. But in the last two years, come April, the above conditions reappear every time the wheat grass supply exhausts.

It sho' 'nuff is a funny set of repeating conditions...


Steve D.

[Madidus_Scientia]

After a while of experiencing an odour you adapt so that you don't smell it anymore so how could you smell continuously?

It sho' 'nuff is a funny set of repeating conditions...

Yeah, let me summarise it all for you;

Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect.

Do it as often as you like, it adds nothing. As Bored Chemist said, evidence is not the plural of anecdote.

My digestion was better. My heart, lungs worked more smoothly and mind (As Cliff C. noted with his experience) was clearer

Really, how were you measuring your digestion? are you taking and analysing stool samples? How are you measuring how "smoothly" your heart works? How are you measuring how "smoothly" your lungs work? How are you measuring "mind clarity" ??

Do you think it's rejuvenated your energy field?

If your mind was clearer wouldn't you have realised what everyone has been trying to tell you?

[SteveD (OP)]

It's clear to me that this thread is divided into two camps: those who have experience with wheatgrass and find it to have salutary effects and those who do not have experience with it and believe that, since there is no scientific evidence, that this salutary effect is probably impossible, or, at least, not true.

I'm now more interested in production values. Specifically, how to keep a supply at 12 ounces, three times/day, consistently.
Ironically, this is easier to quantify and will therefore be more 'scientific'.

Currently, I have thirty six 17"x 17" trays of wheatgrass growing.

I plant 4 trays/day at using seven, 13 ounce glasses (dry weight)/tray or 22.75 ounces of seed/tray or 91 ounces per day.

Steve D.

[CliffC]

Hi SteveD,

Long time no post. I was also interested in production values regarding growing wheatgrass.  I've been growing trays of wheatgrass for some time, and have noticed that while it's the easiest thing to get some seeds to sprout, it's tricky to get consistent quality trays of wheatgrass.  They require frequent watering, the amount of sunlight/light affects how fast the sprouts grow, soil amount and quality is a big factor, and when the tray is harvested and juiced I think has a big influence on the nutrient content.

I've noticed when the sprouts get a bit too much for the tray/soil amount and start turning yellow, the juiced product and effect definitely suffers, and there is only a couple days' window before it gets like this.  When you walk into a Jamba J. store and ask for a wheatgrass shot, ever notice half the time the grass in the tray looks like it's dying?  One time I was in Hawaii and wanted a shot of wheatgrass.  The store there only had precut grass in plastic bags, ?how long it had been harvested.

There may be a wide number of factors affecting nutrient content, and that's why I think potentially prefrozen or freeze dried products or other "grass" supplements may not be as effective.

The previous studies that declare no benefit to wheatgrass in controlled studies I don't think took into account many of these variables, and that another reason why the anecdotal or observational effects that many people describe merits more investigation.

The posters that wave it all away to placebo effect are the ones being closed-minded.  Good scientific studies start from observational data, theories and postulates and go from there.

-Cliff

[Bored chemist]

"It's clear to me that this thread is divided into two camps: those who have experience with wheatgrass and find it to have salutary effects and those who do not have experience with it and believe that, since there is no scientific evidence, that this salutary effect is probably impossible, or, at least, not true."
What about those of us who don't know or particularly care about wheatgrass, but feel that since there's no evidence, this isn't science and possibly shouldn't be on a scientific web site?

[Madidus_Scientia]

Indeed. Why not post it on your own website, to spare us from your spam.

[_Stefan_]

Closed minded? WOW! Don't you get it? Your "observational data" don't actually have any scientific value at all, because they are anecdotal, completely subjective, and don't control against the placebo effect or any other extraneous variables. We are asking for strong scientific evidence, as we always do - we actually want to find out if wheatgrass is special or not. If anyone is closed-minded, it's you, who insist that it does work and reject the fact that your "data" is miserable. Is there anything that could convince you that wheatgrass doesn't work? If so, what? If not, what a waste of brain.