[imatfaal]

Dchung - I have removed your latest post from general view.  If you want to discuss abstinence from procreative sex (via contraception, celebacy, or even android sex-bots) please do so in a more seemly manner; ie in a scientific rather than scabrous form 

This is a science site but we also insist it be kept acceptable reading for families and children - so whilst we tend not to shy away from any topic we insist that discussion is kept within certain boundaries of good taste and decency. 

Thanks
imatfaal - moderator

[HollowLibra]

You have to start somewhere... People love money, so you use money/taxes to effect population control. After 2 kids I I believe people should be penalized, and we should give incentives for men and women who get fixed. Did you know as a women you have to have so many kids or be a certain age to get your tubes tide.. well we should totally do away with that. In fact if you don't have a kid but you get you tubes tide ect. you should be rewarded. This is America people here love their freedom I think this plain still aloud people to have more then one kids but through incentives people won't want to.

[cheryl j]

Actually a high standard of living and access to birth control is even better at reducing the population rate. How many working couples do you know  with more than two children? Improving over all economic conditions is in my opinion a better strategy than penalizing people through laws or taxes. In China, the restrictions on number of children have had a measurable effect on the number of female offspring born, which was not supposed to happen but nevertheless did.

[yor_on]

Yes, most society's, still living in the past, will deem male offspring to be 'worth' more than female. That as they are the ones expected to draw the income, enabling them to support their elders. And that's the way it worked in most countries I know of, before the industrial revolution, and the major step we took from a farming community to a industrialized.

It's also a question of power naturally. 
Personal power over another person.
People enjoy power, although, not asking themselves why.

[yor_on]

I would rather see it as a result of education Cheryl, limiting the kids one want. But I still think you're right in the way it has limited the offspring's in our modern society. I don't find the way we've materialized living to be healthy myself, and it definitively won't suit Earths limited resources. One should notice that in spite of all talk about nano technology, unlimited energy sources etc, we humans still increase the amount of man-made CO2 each year, globally. And a lot of plans for nations becoming self sufficient in form of energy include spewing out more of it, as USA, Canada, versus 'fracking'. 

[CliffordK]

On average, if everyone had 1 or 2 kids, then society could absorb a few big families.  But, it seems as if some of those with larger families also have quite extreme viewpoints. 

And, I have met at least one woman on welfare with about 5 kids by 5 different fathers, battling to receive child support for each of the kids (which I think was her primary means of supporting herself).

Again, if all of society chose to have 1 or 2 kids, it could absorb a few larger families.  But, if everyone has 2 or 3 kids, and a few with 4 or 5, we get POPULATION GROWTH.

Education is key.  But, it also means convincing religious institutions and leaders, and various organizations that they must consider PROTECTING THE EARTH as a primary goal of their faith and practices.  Then, also remove tax incentives to have large families.  Those with large families should shoulder the burden that they put on the current and future populations.

[yor_on]

If it goes with sharing I will agree Clifford, and as you say, making sure everyone gets as good a education as possible, no matter where they was born. Because there is one way more, proven through history. To force people into a choice. but that way won't change a thing really, because then people do it because they have no choice, but not freely chosen. And that way cements the way we treat power and each other, also making dictatorships legit, as a means to an end without ethics. But probably it will need a little of both to work, as you seem to assume. But it is important to consider the ethics.

[veer10]

Birth control should be introduced at the places where birth rate is very high but it should be promoted where birth rate very poor for proper balanced at our planet.

[sunshaker]

To many people are having children for the welfare benefits, where i live, i see 15/ 16 years olds having kids for the benefits and a shortcut to a council home, their kids grow up thinking the same,

It seems the "poorer" or less "educated", follow this trend,

Governments need to help the young into real jobs, not just working in a £shop,

My neighbours as 7 children and as never worked, i spoke to her eldest son who is nearly 17, and he did not know he could go to the job centre, he thought it was just for "adults".

More and more jobs are being computerised or now have robots doing all the manual work, which give bigger profits to the few",
The skills needed to keep up with these changes are not being taught in our "state schools".

The rich like the poor, for without the poor you would not have the rich.

[alancalverd]

For the UK, at least, I suggest the abolition of child benefits and a grant of £500 to every woman aged 15- 50 every 6 months if she is not pregnant.

No compulsion, no penalty, no intrusion. You just turn up for a pregnancy test and the nurse gives you £500 if it is negative. 

If this halves the birthrate, it will save a huge amount of money and reduce the UK population to an indefinitely sustainable level (about 5 - 7 million) with a vastly better standard of living than we now enjoy, in 100 years.

[Bored chemist]

Until recently the birthrate in the UK was less than the death rate, so there wouldn't be much point to changing it. Outr net population would have fallen if it were not for immigration.
Also, the standard models for economics all rely on growth in the population.
You can find the data here
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=uk&v=25
What I want to know is what happened in 2009/2010?
The obvious contender is a change in government but how could that produce a sudden 3% drop in the death rate and a simultaneous 15% rise in the birth rate?

[alancalverd]

Feelgood factor.

Our net population would have fallen if it were not for immigration.

What my engineer father called "ignoring the weight of the elephant...." Or to quote a balloonist friend: "We would have crossed the Atlantic if we hadn't run out of fuel before we got to Ireland."

[Bored chemist]

You say "Or to quote a balloonist friend: "We would have crossed the Atlantic if we hadn't run out of fuel before we got to Ireland.""
as if you think it's relevant.

The fact remains that the birth rate in the UK is pretty low. Until recently it was below the death rate.
So it's not a sensible place to start population control.

And I think you want to discuss the juxtaposition of these concepts "no intrusion" and "You just turn up for a pregnancy test " with someone who might ever be, or ever has been, pregnant.

If it halves the birthrate then the people who are paying tax when you retire will each have to find twice as much for you.
Good luck with explaining to them that it's "a vastly better standard of living"

[alancalverd]

You have repeated an old fallacy. Fact is that in the UK the cohort under 20 years old contributes almost no tax, and a significant proportion of tax revenue pays for education, maternity and child heath, and other services (youth justice and offenders, etc) that are consumed entirely by that group. So current taxpayers would not have to work harder or longer to pay my pension as they would not be supporting as many newborns.

The figure that matters is the working fraction, that proportion of the population aged 20 - 60, whose taxes support those older and younger than themselves. At present it's about 0.54. If we halved the birthrate, the working fraction would increase gradually to a little below 0.6, whilst the total population would decrease so that each person had access to a greater absolute quantity of finite resources. More taxpayers and more resources per capita seem to be good objectives. 

From memory, a pregnancy test consists of little more than peeing into a cup. I'd be happy to do that for £500. In fact, I pay for the privilege of doing it (plus a whole lot of more intrusive tests) for my annual medical certificate.

[Europan Ocean]

The United States, Canada, NZ and Australia are great nations and economies due to immigration, the intelligence we chose in some cases with the immigration policy, and the boosts to our economies of only having young fit people come to take and create jobs, products and services, pay tax for many years before retiring... it has been great. So for the long term with us, this could continue, as a slower rate since we are now full. There are a lot of intermarriages.

For us I think condoms and pills are the answer, and for Catholics, abstinence after child bearing and perhaps having them in the late twenties, and thirties, even if they marry at 22 each.

Perhaps all over, teach people to have one or two children each, unless they earn a lot more than average. Say $95,000 AUD per year as a couple even with children at home.

I don't push for eugenics, that I believe is up to the individual. However, perhaps a tax award can be given to great sports people and artists and scientists... However they have the money naturally don't you think?

In India and China, education is a must and contraception methods. They seem to be old fashioned. They want boys and upward family sizes. India too, but they are less educated.

It seems the future is full of the kind of people who have larger families, and they are like my friends, Catholics. Great guys.

Poland, Russia, Hungary, they don't have much immigration, but life their is not desirable, touring looks great, but the corruption, poverty, human trafficking, and common things with us like drugs, and crime are high indeed! Then to speak a language only known locally... not so good.

I like the non melting pot of nations aspect to those countries, but not the antisemitism. The common thinking, the condensed patrimoniousness and nationhood...! I love the blonds and red heads. That from within there is little or no counter nationhood. I hope they learn from our immigration policies of the last 65 years. Their number stay at the old figures or decrease and because of slavery. Average age of a Hungarian man to reach is 68. They also take immigrants, and maybe this will bolster the tax payer, retiree ratio.

In a world working at healing infertility we are in an amazing situation. Ironic and a conundrum.

Perhaps if people with a prison sentence of six years or more were taxed for each child they had after the one.

Perhaps if the priesthood were given tax deductions. And celibate protestant clergyman and Buddhist monks, and perhaps atheist and any people specially dedicated to a job like university professing...

But the one child policy is shockingly evil and the forced sterilization has been done in Slovakia to gypsies and is so unfair.
 

[galaxysim]

The 'energy descent',  'population control' and 'peak everything' are elephants in the room
The energy descent will certainly sharpen peoples minds...AFAIK there are no get out jail free cards

Overpopulation and the Bathroom Metaphor - Isaac Asimov

Who needs or wants population control ?  A quick reminder of whats happening here & now

Phrases like population overshoot, carrying capacity and population undershoot will gain increasing attention in the media on the run up to 2035ad.  The next big oil shock will sweep aside much of the denial.

The most informative video you will ever see ? ....and perhaps for many it is

How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth (FULL)

For me Utopia = a 1 megawatt turbine per capita, but the replication rate (if seen as a self replicating system) may fall far below what is needed for 500 million people, let alone the 7billion +

Run the full scope energy maths & science and you end up with Soylent Green or A global Easter island

The age of go forth and multiply now has to be replaced with a new paradigm of self restraint. Right now short term strength through longterm exhaustion is burning our Uranium bridge to space. A+nother elephant in the room. Has anyone even considered this ?....I have never even heard this key issue mentioned. No one is even thinking of reserving global Uranium for space colonization....Yet its our one 'shot easy bridge' to permanent space colonies.

End of oil looks set to be less than 15,000 days away.

End of gas ? 2060ad

End of Uranium ? 2075

End of coal early next century

As we run out of oil, it inevitably causes a domino effect. Cultural inertia will see us using up vasts amount of gas and coal to make artificial oil. Despite the great cost and inevitable outcome we will probably hobble on with artificial oil until the end of gas.

Q: Who is going to get the last 10% of that energy ?

The Armies, Governments and Police forces of nations with their own reserves !...if even their own populace will be deprived of fossil/fissile fuel  what then of the populace of all those energy importer nations ? ....nations which cannot import any energy because no one is exporting any.

Long before we reach the bottom of the barrel the casualties and fall out of the energy descent will be pandemic...unless historically unprecedented levels of co operation occur at the global scale we will see a population plummet and historically unprecedented levels of migration away from energy poor regions.


Simple maths

Simple physics

Simply ignored

You don't have to be a lifetime subscriber to Doomers weekly, a couple of hours with a calculator holding the word finite uppermost in your mind tends to do the trick. Some inconvenient truths are flocking our way....and in our lifetimes.....Not feeling worried enough ? Here's a few videos to consider.

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of

Who Killed Economic Growth?

population control?
...unless a global miracle occurs in the next 25 years you wont need a pill post 2050ad, just a shovel and a fistful of lime


Climate change ? Methane Gun, Global sea levels, ....ask me do i care ?....Not really. The energy descent and the population plummet will soon have us ALL forgetting  about those relatively unimportant issues. 300 years of energy ascent  is about to be replaced with 300 years of energy descent.

This last century mankind has seldom been short of knowledge...but has always, always been short on wisdom....and thats the Stuff all those Malthusian catastrophes are made of isn't it ?


Someone else has been running the wisdom numbers too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones [nofollow]




...im going long on canablism myself

[dchung]

Just re-stating my position on Android Sex-bots coupled with an effective media campaign that promotes human-robot contact over human-human contact..

Estimate = drastic population reduction in a short period of time (20-30 yrs) without the need of taxation, chemicals or genocidal warfare.. Just an effective product and an effective promotion campaign..

[alancalverd]

Unless you are proposing android prostitution, you will need to make 7,000,000,000 of these pretty quickly, to have any impact on the problem.

What we do have, however, is 3,500,000,000 intelligent beings who are entirely capable of deciding the future population with no need for a new product.

As my old navigation instructor used to say "It's a good idea to start from where you are - then you won't get lost before you leave the runway."

[syhprum]

I think that what keeps the birth-rate down in the UK is the price of houses and the constant social pressure to turn them into mini palaces.
It is not possible for one wage earner in most parts of the UK to earn enough to buy a house so both man and wife must both work and take great care not to have children.

[dchung]

True, 7 billion sex bots is alot to produce, but it's possible considering the population mobilization of WW2 in making armaments and the fact that we have robots that can assist or do 100% of the production these days.. The input is worth the outcome.. Every human with a robot assistant that performs; information searches, mundane tasks and sexual acts, just seems like the future to me .. 20 years after introduction, i'd wanna see 75% of them recycled because they are no longer needed due to population decrease..

3.5 billion people choosing not to procreate is a good idea too, it's alot cheaper for one