God real or not

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #100 on: 31/03/2006 00:24:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

isnt the idea of all powerful-ness adressed with-

can god make a stone so big he couldnt move it?

if he can, then he is not all powerful; because he cant move the stone. if he cant, then he is not all powerful either; because he cant make a large enough stone.

thats what always killed all-powerfulness for me.



Perfectly valid argument, excepting one has to ask whether things like mass, or even stones, are actually the same in God's reality as they are in ours.

Ofcourse, even if we remove ourselves from the specific issue of whether mass exists in God's world, there remains the more general question as to whether God is capable of creating a situation he is unable to change.

But, the point I was indirectly making is that in polytheist religions, none of the Gods are all-powerful, because each operates in their own domain, each with their own restrictions.



George
« Last Edit: 31/03/2006 00:28:48 by another_someone »

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #101 on: 31/03/2006 02:23:20 »
This topic seems to be going nowhere. Personally, I do not care if there is or is not a god.

IF there is a god, it is beyond any human understanding or mental contrivances, including logic and anthopomorphication (which most of the discussion has had at its logical core and is thus a limitation of something which, by definition, has no limit).

It doesn't really matter if there is or isn't a god. All will have their opinion. It is tantamount to arguing how many fleas there are on all the dogs in Sweden.  8 quintillion or 8 quintillion and 1? It just doesn't matter. It is a personal, not a public, belief and arguing about it is useless.

My personal belief is that there are two forces inside me, one working to better me and another to create confusion and strife. Whether these force are connected to anything else in the universe just doesn't matter. That is something I must judge for myself.

God's existence is subjective and not objective. This thread is thus, logically, irrelevant.
 



The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline GOD

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #102 on: 31/03/2006 02:43:24 »
At last. Someone who understands my irrelevance.

I am GOD..You are Not..I don't exist !!
It's tough not existing !!

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #103 on: 31/03/2006 02:45:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by JimBob

God's existence is subjective and not objective. This thread is thus, logically, irrelevant.



God's existence is subjective, but that does not make the debate about God's existence irrelevant.

The belief in God, as distinct from the fact of His existence or non-existence, is far from irrelevant, since it gives an important insight into the human psyche.



George

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #104 on: 31/03/2006 02:51:13 »
Hi everyone!  I got this e-mail today and thought it was funny.  It is not meant to make any statements about my religous beliefs, or offend anyone.  I just thought it was funny.

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods.
What majestic trees.  What powerful rivers.  What  beautiful animals
he said to himself.
As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in  the
bushes behind him.  He turned to look.  He saw an 8 foot Alaskan  grizzly
charge toward him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path, he looked over his  shoulder
and saw that the bear was closing in on him.
He looked over his  shoulder again, and the bear was even closer.  He
tripped and fell on the  ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top of him,  reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out: "Oh my God..."
Time stopped.  The bear froze.
The forest was  silent.As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice
came out of the  sky:

"You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit the creation to a cosmic accident.  Do you really expect me to help you out of this Predicament?
Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be  hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but  perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?"
"Very well," said the voice. The light went out.  The sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear Dropped his right paw, brought both paws  together and bowed his head and spoke:

"Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty, through Christ our Lord,
Amen."[:D]

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 31/03/2006 02:55:27 by Carolyn »
Carolyn

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #105 on: 31/03/2006 03:37:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by JimBob

God's existence is subjective and not objective. This thread is thus, logically, irrelevant.



God's existence is subjective, but that does not make the debate about God's existence irrelevant.

The belief in God, as distinct from the fact of His existence or non-existence, is far from irrelevant, since it gives an important insight into the human psyche.



George




Exactly. Every psyche is different and it is thus a matter of personal  PERCEPTION, not a fact. Insignt in to the human psyche is far difference that the existence or non-existence of God. What is being discussed is logical proof, not a subjective belief. I DO believe in God, but that is not proof I am right. I have made a subjective judgement based on my life experience, not fact.

By the way, I am a hingh church person - a dyed in the wool smells and bells person. But it has NOTHING to do with logic. It is my Opinion[/] (and experience) that in order to reap the full benefits of belief that logic must be suspended for the experience of God to be manifest. Read Thomas Aquinas. I am not saying anything new here.







The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #106 on: 31/03/2006 03:53:43 »
Certainly debating God leads to revelation (pun intended)...but revelation ,as has been mentioned ,of the psyche. Just like a debate on any subject about absolutely anything you like will also reveal these qualities.

A persons characteristics are open for display when any discussion is at hand. It is of course relevant to discuss god insofar that it serves it's purpose as a topic to debate.

 Communicating at length on a variety of subjects soon reveals the psyche and in some cases one can predict with some authority how a person will respond.

Circumstances have prevailed for all of us that we will think that we know how a person will react or what they will say in certain situations that offer conclusive answers to questions that meet the criteria for revealing the psyche.
« Last Edit: 31/03/2006 04:51:13 by neilep »
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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #107 on: 31/03/2006 17:01:57 »
When I referred to the human psyche, I was not only referring to the psyche of the individual, since religion is a social phenomenon, and effects entire societies.

As you say, every personal psyche is different, and the precise nature and reason for each person's belief is subtly different, but there still remains certain beliefs that are more prominent in certain societies, at certain times in history, than in other societies and in other times.  Thus one must conclude that the belief is not merely a personal choice, but also a social choice that serves a purpose within the society itself.



George

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #108 on: 31/03/2006 17:57:58 »
I agree.

You can not ignore the influences culture has on an individuals' opinions and convictions.

Without a doubt, society, for which I am including the family, and it’s trends are  the single most influencing factor upon a persons beliefs and therefore their psyche.

However unique we may think our psyche is, we can not help but have it impressed upon by the society we live in and the fashions of the day. It is in fact a product of that society.


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Offline Hadrian

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #109 on: 31/03/2006 18:10:47 »
The original question was “Is God real or not?”    The word real means true, genuine, or valid among other things. If the indented question was Does God exist or not? Then this is one of the most thought about question of all time. There is an answer for everybody out there. The right answer for you for me for anyone who asks. God is, to the degree you believe in God.  

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.

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Offline mcduke

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #110 on: 02/04/2006 00:54:01 »
Do you mean God as in the most generic term. That there is just some form of intelligence out there that created/is part of everything? Even if all creation was done through trial and error? Well then, Yes!
Then again Dog spelled backwards is?
You guys really know how to over think things. lol
 

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #111 on: 07/04/2006 16:37:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by mcduke

Do you mean God as in the most generic term. That there is just some form of intelligence out there that created/is part of everything? Even if all creation was done through trial and error? Well then, Yes!
Then again Dog spelled backwards is?
You guys really know how to over think things. lol



Well it all up to each of us to belive or not

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #112 on: 08/04/2006 00:02:30 »
quote:
Well it all up to each of us to belive or not

That sort of depends whether a tendancy towards skepticism is heritable or not I suppose... he says kicking off another debate

I have heard that an artistic temperament correlates with a tendancy to see patterns where there are none - I wonder if this has anything to do with religion.

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #113 on: 08/04/2006 05:24:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by daveshorts

I have heard that an artistic temperament correlates with a tendancy to see patterns where there are none - I wonder if this has anything to do with religion.



I think that religion actually comes in a variety of forms.

Certainly, it has been said that certain types of religious experience can be linked to certain peculiar forms of epilepsy, but I don;t think that this correlates with the more common social aspects of religion.

Ofcourse, one could even suggest that science, in its own way, is a form of religion, and in some ways, has its own believers just as much as any other religion, and has its own social pressures for people to conform to the established doctrine of that religion.  Again, I think this is one way in which people approach religion, but other people have other reasons for being religious, and for them, merely accepting and belonging to the established doctrine is not the primary motivation.



George

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Offline ZMIVI

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #114 on: 08/04/2006 07:03:44 »
If you are saying that god is not real then are you saying some man 2,000 years ago made the book up? Someone who that long ago somehow knew about the evolution process that was proved to be chronologicly correct? Someone who just guessed on all of the events in the bible proven to have really happened? Even if you beleave much of it was made up HOW can you explain everything that has been proven right? Or the fact that the persons writing skills were as great as William Shakespears and as smart as Albert Enstien and new more than him before electricity was known to man?
 

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Offline ZMIVI

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #115 on: 08/04/2006 07:04:21 »
If you are saying that god is not real then are you saying some man 2,000 years ago made the book up? Someone who that long ago somehow knew about the evolution process that was proved to be chronologicly correct? Someone who just guessed on all of the events in the bible proven to have really happened? Even if you beleave much of it was made up HOW can you explain everything that has been proven right? Or the fact that the persons writing skills were as great as William Shakespears and as smart as Albert Enstien and new more than him before electricity was known to man?
 

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #116 on: 08/04/2006 13:50:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by ZMIVI

If you are saying that god is not real then are you saying some man 2,000 years ago made the book up? Someone who that long ago somehow knew about the evolution process that was proved to be chronologicly correct? Someone who just guessed on all of the events in the bible proven to have really happened? Even if you beleave much of it was made up HOW can you explain everything that has been proven right? Or the fact that the persons writing skills were as great as William Shakespears and as smart as Albert Enstien and new more than him before electricity was known to man?



Not sure exactly who you are responding to, or exactly what aspect of what you have read that this is a response to.

Firstly, there are two separate arguments, those regarding the truth of the Bible in general, and the specific questions regarding the existence of God.  Since there are many different conjectures in different religions, and even different sects within the same religions, as to what is and is not God, one can argue the existence/non-existence of God totally separately from the specific issue of whether the totality of the Bible is correct, or merely symbolic, or merely misunderstood, or a total fiction.

As for people's writing skills being as good as William Shakespeare's – which version of the Bible are you reading?  If it happens to be the King James Bible, then it would have been written within a few decades of William Shakespeare's death.  If you are reading the Bible is classical Greak, Aramiac, and the various other original languages, then it is another matter.  I have no doubt that there were some very good authors in ancient Greece, in Babylonia, and elsewhere in the ancient world; but I would not suppose to be a critic of their work, since I do not understand their native tongues.

It is folly to regard the ancients as stupid.  They were just as clever, and just as foolish, as we are today; they just did not have the material and intellectual infrastructure that we have upon which to base their work.  Hero, a Greek living in Alexandria around the time of Christ, invented the first known steam engine, almost 2000 years before anyone found any practical use for it – these are not the acts of stupid people.

Albert Einstein, smart as he was, got many things wrong; but no man who is willing to be as revolutionary as he was can reasonably expect to get everything right.

I am not sure what you mean by “ knew about the evolution process that was proved to be chronologically correct”?  In the first place, this seems to presume that evolution is a correct theory, which is something that some adherents to the Bible would argue goes against the teachings of the Bible.  What the writers of the Bible did assume was that the simpler parts of life were created first, and the more complicated came later – this is not an unreasonable judgement to make, no matter what the mechanism was that increased the complexity of life.



George

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Offline mcduke

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #117 on: 19/04/2006 23:32:24 »
It seems that the God of the bible, old and new testament, is the one being discussed. So, your choices are that you're either jewish or christian as far as your particular belief. The God of the old testament was pretty violent and harsh. The God of the new testament gave his only son and, well, you know the story. Does this mean that God evolved into what we need at a specific time in our existence? If everyone simply lived by the rules of christianity it would certainly be a wonderful world, if not overpopulated.
I wouldn't mind believing if I had some proof. Isn't that what science is all about? Proof!
So, how many in this discussion actually believe that there is a God (as per the bible)? And I actually mean believe, not think there is, or concider it a possibility.
 

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Offline elegantlywasted

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #118 on: 19/04/2006 23:59:30 »
My main problem with the bible is where do the women come from!? Adam and Eve have Cain and Abel, where does Cain's wife come from? If we are all decendants of Adam and Eve, are we all decendants of some odd incestouous (sp?) relationship?

-Meg
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Offline Laith

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #119 on: 20/04/2006 19:15:13 »
"I believe in a creator, but i don't believe in a personal God"
                                 Albert Einstein






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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #120 on: 21/04/2006 14:14:00 »
y do frogs hop? they got 4 legs? :)

- Big T
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Offline time-cop

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #121 on: 22/04/2006 00:56:29 »
someone said that the time of the creation and garden of eden,was approximately 4000 bc,this coincides with the change by early humans to a pastoral life,instead of being hunter gatherers,and they have placed this in the euphrates/tigres valley,so did early man just have more time to wonder about his environment and who put in there,you only have to watch a child play to see how fantastically inventive the human mind is,i would never condemn or ridicule some one for their beliefs,i personally dont believe, my choice, and everyone should be able to have their own choice,and not be press-ganged into a belief.

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #122 on: 02/05/2006 14:18:23 »
SO i guess no 1 will really know till they die huh?

- Big T
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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #123 on: 02/05/2006 15:13:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by tony6789

SO i guess no 1 will really know till they die huh?

- Big T



You're spot on there Tony.

Let your imagination take flight.

You may find comfort in a belief of God...millions and millions do...and they may be right..

Personally, I sometimes think I want to believe but I just can not take that leap of faith like others can and do....so, I always remain open and available to be convinced but it has to be convincing enough to my satisfaction...



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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #124 on: 04/05/2006 14:15:52 »
Same here i want to believe it but it just doesnt eem possible...

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #125 on: 04/05/2006 17:09:24 »
if i was to just choose, facts aside, how id like the universe to be, id definitely choose no god or creator. we all command our own actions and morality and that gives me much more comfort then "something else" doing it. note thats not the reason i believe there isnt one.

i just cant understand this atheist in pain syndrome...'i want to have faith in some vague, wishy-washy impossible thing, but im just so tortured by critical thinking and sense!'

whats the big deal? be proud of your ability to reason, so then you wont drink the kool aid when hale-bopp comes around again(im probably mixing up 2 groups of nutjobs)
 

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #126 on: 11/05/2006 14:30:16 »
Y wouldnt u want to have a god? In most religions "God" is portraied as a kind, loveing, genourous, and forgiving...ummm...thing....or spirt. So y wouldnt u want God?(I am speaking, of course, of the God that ties in with Jesus and the Saints)

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Offline Laith

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #127 on: 11/05/2006 19:01:12 »
i agree with tony, and they also offer more life after death..

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #128 on: 11/05/2006 19:39:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laith

i agree with tony, and they also offer more life after death..

Laith



I thought Buddhism, which lacks a God (although some variants have mixed atheistic core Buddhism with local theistic beliefs), and yet is the pre-eminent religion for reincarnation.



George

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #129 on: 11/05/2006 23:51:06 »
i do not want to live in a universe with a "god" because i do not want a supreme authority figure or even a loving father figure watching over me. i dont want a "right" and a "wrong", i want to decide these things for myself. i think individualism is far more important than some sort of maternal love with the invisible.

as far as life after death, thats a different question, its not really asking me about god because its not neccesarily one and the same. however, i dont want to believe in life after death either. living this one life is painting my masterpiece, and i dont know if i could take more than 75-100 years of keeping myself occupied. why would you want to live more than that? life is already long enough.
 

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #130 on: 12/05/2006 14:16:47 »
y? thats what im asking. y wouldnt y want "the ultimate protector" by ur side?

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #131 on: 12/05/2006 15:02:07 »

Would you?
 



What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #132 on: 12/05/2006 19:27:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian


Would you?
 



What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.




Agreed - It can be a very frightening approach.


The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
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Offline Hadrian

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #133 on: 12/05/2006 20:28:47 »

Turn your attention away from the surface of you mind and sink into the joy and peace in the depths of your hart. Only there will you be whit the I am.  



What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #134 on: 16/05/2006 14:26:12 »
ok back 2 the arguement. then how do u people explain exercism? when a demon controls the body.

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #135 on: 18/05/2006 18:22:36 »
you are the reason people think americans are stupid(i am one, by the way). you keep asking for scientific explanations of supposed actions by your obviously pseudo-christian abrahamic god. look at the whole world man. its bigger than one silly belief system and vision of god.
 

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #136 on: 18/05/2006 21:02:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

you are the reason people think americans are stupid(i am one, by the way). you keep asking for scientific explanations of supposed actions by your obviously pseudo-christian abrahamic god. look at the whole world man. its bigger than one silly belief system and vision of god.



You are so wrong!  You just called a 13 year old boy stupid.  What kind of person are you?  This young man is curious and looking for answers. How are kids supposed to learn if they don't ask questions?  Curious children aren't the reason SOME people think SOME americans are stupid.  Maybe you should do a little scientific research before you make such ignorant assumptions.  

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #137 on: 18/05/2006 22:00:43 »
i did not realize this person was 13, and am truly sorry. really.

i might have been taking out some vain agression where i shouldntve been.

im very embarrased
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #138 on: 19/05/2006 13:40:37 »
Tony is our resident youth !...and gecko was not aware of his age...and also, though I can see the inference of Geckos post he didn't actually say Tony was stupid directly. Though, the implication was there.

Unfortunately this topic ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS generates debate, frustration, confusion, anger and a whole host of other emotions which because of the nature of ' GOD ' are self perpetuating....the fact of the matter is ..I can't prove there is not a GOD and others can't prove there is a GOD.....

These topics(about God and Religion)  never have a resolution...because we just do not know...so all we can do is philosophise, speculate and elaborate on our personal points of view.

I am sure Tony is Ok and it's nice of Gecko to apologise as such.

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #139 on: 19/05/2006 13:43:22 »
If you really want to debate GOD I can direct you to a forum where Philosophies, God/lack of God and Religions of ALL types are openly discussed and debated with accord and discord but always with an open mind and respect.

Tony, you will find it an excellent site...in fact everone will.

let me know [:)]

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 19/05/2006 13:46:50 by neilep »
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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #140 on: 19/05/2006 14:21:51 »
It's ok gecko

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #141 on: 20/05/2006 05:40:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

i did not realize this person was 13, and am truly sorry. really.

i might have been taking out some vain agression where i shouldntve been.

im very embarrased




I also apologise.  I was a bit harsh.

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #142 on: 23/05/2006 14:10:08 »
So what about exercism

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #143 on: 23/05/2006 14:33:21 »
?

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Offline upton

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #144 on: 23/05/2006 16:38:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by tony6789

So what about exercism

NEVER! underestimate youth



Though I understand that exorcism exists I do not know if any have been accurately documented. You would think that the recording of such an event, with witnesses, would help to establish a truth in this respect.

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Offline Kevinkrupp

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #145 on: 24/05/2006 03:32:02 »
What is wrong with you all
There is a God and he sent his one and only son to die on the cross for you and you wont even believe in him

Well then how did humans get to be on this planet.
If the earth was tilted one direction up we would all burn and if it was tilted one direction down we would all freeze.
or if the earth was closer then everything would burn and it if where farther away we would all freeze

For example if i wound a wrist watch in the middle of a field i would not assume that it just appeared out of nowhere and i would not assume that it had always existed i would assume that it had a designer but you dont know the designer you would still KNOW there was a designer.

we realize that there will always be skeptics who have their own ideas concerning God. and will read evidence accordingly. and there will be some people who no amount of proof will convence them (it all comed down to fait.)

God shows himself through creation, and his word, and he sent his son jesus crist.

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #146 on: 24/05/2006 20:48:06 »
that's exactly what we r arguing on. All the proof we have og Gad or Jesus is the Bible!

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #147 on: 25/05/2006 06:31:57 »
kevin krupp, you are everything i hate.

im so angry i cant even gather my thoughts well enough to tell you everything that is wrong with what you just said.

im retiring from this whole "debate". sorry to be the embodiment of the "angry atheist" but sometimes thats just the way it is...
 

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Offline tony6789

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #148 on: 25/05/2006 13:28:09 »
we do not know if god really sent jesus or created the world. we have no proof if he does or has ever existed


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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #149 on: 25/05/2006 13:53:16 »
You see this is the problem (Whilst writing this I am having a ' here we go again moment '...and it's not nice)

Kevinkrupp believes in God...he believes in God so much that what ever one might say, his staunch point of view (ie: belief) wins through every time and nothing anybody will say will change his mind.

Nothing wrong with that I respect his beliefs  ( I personally don't share them )...but please leave the proselytising for a non science site !!

Incidentally...I'm sure I saw a program which mentioned the finding the watch thing....of course a watch may well have a makers mark on it !..YES...I suppose one could argue that the earth and the universe etc has it's own makers mark too...I suppose *le sigh*)....I am sure Kevinkrupp is happy in his certainty so much so that he thinks we're all blind to the obvious.

I have found that such perspectives have a weakness though.....it's the inability to entertain the possibility that there may be another answer.
 However, he MIGHT be right. we just do not know and will never know unless God calls round for tea and a chat !!....and that's why (it's that 'here we go again' moment')....this thread...like all the religious ones before it.......never have a resolution to them.


For the recent members...I once held a running poll on this site as to whether one believed in God or not...I wanted to keep it simple so the premise was...do you believe in God..Yes or No ?....it's interesting that after about 8 months...the votes were split right down the middle...that did surprise me considering the nature of this site........

I deleted the thread because it later became a place of argument and derision...but I did think the results interesting.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !