[spud]

[again edited for personal insults - Dave]

[daveshorts]

What evidence do you have that evolution can't explain the order in the world. If you ever studied biochemistry in depth, it is a strange mix of beautifully elegant design, and horrible hacks.

So either God is alternately inspired and lazy
or
he evolved everything anyway.

 You even get them on a large scale - why do we get so many back problems? It makes sense if we have only recently evolved, and there hasn't been time for subtle issues like back ache to evolve out, but does it if we are made in the image of God?

Why is childbirth so difficult and dangerous? Because a pelvis that was designed for giving birth to quatrapedal small headed apes has has evolved to bipedalism, and babies heads have got a lot bigger, and evolution hasn't had time to come up with a good answer - or god is still punishing women for Eve falling for a classic entrapment scheme 6000 years ago - nice example of a loving god that one.

[JimBob]

WHY ARE YOU UNABLE TO ANSWER A QUESTION DIRECTLY?

In Genesis, a day is defined as 24 hours. How do you get 6000 years or more in a day? If you can get more than 24 hours in a day what is the difference between 30 hours , 6000 years or 65 to 125 million years?

Secondly, you still have not shown me in the Bible where 1/3rd of the angels were thrown down, much less any angel.

Isaiah 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning"
This passage in Isaiah is about Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. Lucifer is the Morning Star, one of titles of Nebuchadnezzar. The passage is about Babylon, both before and after in Chapter 14 of Isaiah.  Isaiah 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" Your reading is out of context. It is also a reading that is not consistent with the Hebrew original.

The word angel is never used.

It was not until Jerome (full name = Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus) translated - incorrectly - the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible into the Latin vulgate, or "common Latin", that the word "Lucifer" was even used. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 14:12 is "heylel" and it has two meanings. 1.) the Morning Star or the planet Venus, 2.) of or pertaining to the King of Babylon. Lucifer is the Latin word for Venus.

It was only about 1310 when Dante wrote the Divine Comedy that there is any evidence in all of Christian writing that the angels and Satan were connected with this passage. This is over half of the history of Christianity. It was either Dante or John Milton who claimed that 1/3rd the angels fell with Satan; it is not in the Bible. In the Hebrew language "Satan" is a word for a completely different concept than the planet Venus; it is translated as "adversary."

As for Sadducee, the word refers to priests of the temple who interpreted the Old Testament literally. (look it up in a good  dictionary.) If the shoe fits, wear it.

My belief in God is only bolstered by the elegance of design I see explained in my science.

It has been my experience that scientist have given more thought to the question of the existence of God than any other group of people I have ever been acquainted with. The reason: the elegance and beauty and the PROVABLE REPETITIVE RESULTS found in an theory of mountain formation or a formula for particle physic or in evolution is awe inspiring. The beauty and majesty of this Universe makes a scientist ask questions or we would not be scientist. Some come to one conclusion, others come to another. The thought that goes into this decision is equal to the thought that is given to the existence of God among theologians.




The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[ejirolove30]

You do not understand what I meant by genesis 1 and 2. I never said 24 hours is not a day. You misunderstood me or I am not explaing myself very well.

To everyone else, everything I say, you tell me you need facts. I am going to say this that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God gave His only son Jesus Christ to die for the sin of mankind.  Jesus Christ has died for the sins of all and has risen from the dead. Those who call upon His name and trust in Him shall be saved.  It is only through faith that man will receive salvation.  

It is only through faith that you will believe that miracles did take place in the bible and that evolution have never setup the order that is all around us.


I  wish you the guys the best in your qwest for God.  Remember you were told the truth and refuse it because of the theories you were taught by your teachers and professors.

Take care guys.

Dan

[ejirolove30]

Luke 10:18-20, jim. There is a part in revelation that speaks about 1/3. I do not remember the exact verse.

Those are my last words, unfortunately this is a debate/conversation that I cannot win with words, it can only be by having faith without having all the proof. If that was the case, God will come down everyday on the earth and speak to man face to face.  It is by faith and only by faith in Jesus Christ shall all men be saved.

[neilep]

You've certainly hit the nail on the head there.

Faith is eveything...and yours is most certainly true and forthright. I am happy at the obvious comfortability factor that you have in your faith.

With others, their faith is of a different kind, but of equal determination..........perhaps scientific more than religious.

And you know what ?...YOU may be right...we just do not know !..though I understand in your subjectivity....you do know.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[science_guy]

quote:If everything has to have a beginning who created god did he just pop up from nothing.

I dont believe anybody has answered this yet.

God transends dimensions, so therefore he has more than one dimension of time.  Assuming that he only has even 2 dimensions of time, that is still sufficient for this.  with one dimension of time, its a timeline.  With two, its a "timesquare" of sorts.  with the two directions, there are an infinite amount of directions of time to go, and therefore he has no creation event.

there are two different creationist theroys.

1) young earth creationist.  They say that earth was literally created in 6 days, along with the universe and all other things, including our galaxy.  That cannot be so, because our galaxy would have to be coming from a white hole, and that is obviously not true.

2) Old earth creationist.  This is my belief.  Earth is how old we believe it is, 4.6 billion years, and all scientific facts that we have found are true.  The Record of Nature and the Word of God are both true, since God created them both, and he cannot lie.  The only problem is human interpretation. Days, as we call them are 24 hours long, and the day metaphor is how long it seemed to God.  Since God can trancend dimensions, time is irrelevent to him.  

That is my argument, and I polightfully request that we have no heated debating, just conversation.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by science_guy
2) Old earth creationist.  This is my belief.  Earth is how old we believe it is, 4.6 billion years, and all scientific facts that we have found are true.  The Record of Nature and the Word of God are both true, since God created them both, and he cannot lie.  The only problem is human interpretation. Days, as we call them are 24 hours long, and the day metaphor is how long it seemed to God.  Since God can trancend dimensions, time is irrelevent to him.  

If God is capable of all things, then why is he not capable of lying, and lying so well that we could never catch Him out?

As for the word of God, all we have is the word of man that he purports to be the word of God.

Ofcourse, the word of Man that purport to be the word of God, may indeed be the word of God, and indeed, maybe God is not lying – but what evidence do we have that these possibilities are indeed the reality?

quote:
God transends dimensions, so therefore he has more than one dimension of time.  Assuming that he only has even 2 dimensions of time, that is still sufficient for this.  with one dimension of time, its a timeline.  With two, its a "timesquare" of sorts.  with the two directions, there are an infinite amount of directions of time to go, and therefore he has no creation event.

Makes God sound very like a tachyon, except that has 3 dimensions of time, and only one of space (although that might be argued to be consistent with God's omnipresence, since if all space is compressed into one dimension, then to be everywhere you only need to be everywhere in that one dimension.

Ofcourse, there is a contradiction between omnipresence and freedom of movement, since you can only move to somewhere you are not, so if you are everywhere, you cannot actually move anywhere.  If God only exists in 1 dimension of space, then he can fairly easily be everywhere in space (but can move nowhere in space), but if He exists in two or more dimensions of time, then he may have a great deal of freedom of movement in time, but he most be absent from most of time, otherwise he would have to constrain his freedom of movement.

George

[spud]

you guys are pathetic. while your sitting here trying to figure out if there is a god or not, kevin krupp is out on the loose corupting the minds of the elderly...thats right kevin krupp,

edited due to foul language

[rosy]

Spud:
Urmm... do you know something about Kevin Krupp that we don't? All I can see by him is a rather poorly argued post in favour of the God hypothesis which whilst it isn't saying anything either new or interesting, and certainly doesn't convince, doesn't appear to me to be particularly objectionable (compared, say, to your own..) and I'm especially confused by your reference to corrupting the minds of the elderly... do you mean us? Would you like to explain yourself (preferably in moderate terms so the mods don't take it down before anyone can read it..).

[spud]

DELETED TEXT DUE TO ETREME VILE PROVOCATIVE LANGUAGE TOWARDS ANOTHER MEMBER

[neilep]

for anyone who is interested this is SPUDS info:

After what I just deleted this waste of space is most certainly NOT WELCOME here



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Reverse DNS:                    host-69-145-88-53.grf-mt.client.bresnan.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity:       [Verified]
ASN:                            33588
ASN Name:                       BRESNAN-AS
IP range connectivity:          2
Registrar (per ASN):            ARIN
Country (per IP registrar):     US [United States]
Country Currency:               USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range:               69.144.0.0 to 69.145.255.255
Country fraud profile:          Normal
City (per outside source):      Great Falls, Montana
Private (internal) IP?          No
IP address registrar:           whois.arin.net
Known Proxy?                    No

.............................................

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[neilep]

And some more:

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ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.bresnan.net:4321

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NameServer: DNS2.BRESNAN.NET
Comment:    
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Updated:    2005-04-15

RTechHandle: BRESN1-ARIN
RTechName:   BCC Manager
RTechPhone:  +1-406-294-6600
RTechEmail:  ********@bresnan.com

OrgAbuseHandle: BOA2-ARIN
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OrgTechHandle: BRESN1-ARIN
OrgTechName:   BCC Manager
OrgTechPhone:  +1-406-294-6600
OrgTechEmail:  ********@bresnan.com

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-05-29 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by ariel

let me just clear things up
there is a god
FSM
visit www.venganza.org if you wish to find out more and quite possibly become a pastafarian like myself

it's sacrilicious!

Continuing the lighter note on religious doctrine, here is another one favoured by some Mensans.

http://www.thebudgiecult.org/

George

[JimBob]

I need to apologize to the group for getting hot under the collar about an extreme fundamentalist position their beliefs on this group, trying to change our minds from a family held position.

His belief is a meaningful to him as mine is to me. Having asked questions about my belief, and gone through much inquiry and self examination, the threat of someone who does not acknowledge the continually growing mythology of Christianity threatening my belief system (family do it too much) I became defensive an protective.

I was wrong to become defensive. It ceratainly does not reflect the values I say I hold.


The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[neilep]

Well, as far as I can see there was no apology needed , required or expected...but seeing as you're apologizing anyway jimmy boy..then It's humbly accepted....truly though....no apology needed chum.

I would also like to apologise.......not for anything really...just to apologise...so.......sorry people !

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

[ukmicky]

Well seeing as we are all in the mood for apologises i will try to think of something i can apologise for.

PS Jim as neil said, you have done nothing to apologise for.

Michael

[ukmicky]

I'm really really sorry, but i just can't think of anything. its not fair why am i so good [][]

Michael

[JimBob]

WE HAVE FOUND GOD

Praise Michael?

[?]

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

[ukmicky]

LOL

Michael