[Mjhavok]

Yep.

[TeapotTheist]

quote:Originally posted by tony6789

SO i guess no 1 will really know till they die huh?

A good and quite funny(!) book, suitable for kids, certain
to answer many of your questions, although mostly scientific ones:
Bill Bryson "A Short History of Nearly Everything".
Well, I enjoyed it...

---------------------
Faith is not a virtue

[Mjhavok]

I have that book. My brother is reading it at the moment.


Steven

[rcoyle13]

Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.

[vetteluv]

Hey folks, just stumbled onto this forum and found myself fascinated by all the different points of view on this subject. I would like to add a couple, hopefully their not too redundant.

1. Of all the posts I've read, I've read nothing that mentions faith. While faith is probably one of the most unscientific concepts we have, it is one of the strongest markers of ones belief in a religion / god. It's really just the ability to believe w/out proof.
2. There are many stories in the bible about having faith in God, as well as God testing the faith of believers. If someone proved or disproved God's existance w/science, it seems that you would be eliminating one of the foundational concepts of the the bible which is faith.

I too have spent alot of time researching and studying this (i'm hear, ain't i)because I would like to find the truth. I do believe in God not because I have emperical scientific evidence, but because I've been taught to have faith. Faith does not exist to discount science, but science is used quite often to discount faith.
I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".

Dennis

[Mjhavok]

quote:Originally posted by rcoyle13

Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.

I see the sun because of rods and cones in the retina of my eye which link to the optic nerve and then to the occiptal lobe which deals with the information, thus I see an image.

I feel the sun because of heat receptors in my skin which once again transmit information to the brain.

You saying evolution by chance is not a very strong argument just proves you know absolutely nothing about evolution. Read the origin of species a few times and don't just listen to intelligent design/creationist propaganda.

I am an atheist and I feel religion and to some extent believing in god can be harmful. I however don't attack people who believe in god because most are harmless and quite nice infact.

However, when people attack science because they are overly religious when they don't even have any evidence, just a contradictory book of fiction, it does bother me.

You may post your archaic and anti-scientific views somewhere else.

Here perhaps http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/


Steven
_______________________________________________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Mjhavok

quote:Originally posted by rcoyle13

Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.

I see the sun because of rods and cones in the retina of my eye which link to the optic nerve and then to the occiptal lobe which deals with the information, thus I see an image.

I feel the sun because of heat receptors in my skin which once again transmit information to the brain.

You saying evolution by chance is not a very strong argument just proves you know absolutely nothing about evolution. Read the origin of species a few times and don't just listen to intelligent design/creationist propaganda.

I am an atheist and I feel religion and to some extent believing in god can be harmful. I however don't attack people who believe in god because most are harmless and quite nice infact.

However, when people attack science because they are overly religious when they don't even have any evidence, just a contradictory book of fiction, it does bother me.

You may post your archaic and anti-scientific views somewhere else.

Here perhaps http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/


Steven
_______________________________________________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Steven - I'm just curious, in your last two sentences, are you addressing rcoyle13, or all Christians in general?

Carolyn

[RMorty]

quote:Originally posted by vetteluv

I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".

 I like that, because it's true, that does seem to be how it works. Yes, it is funny.  But I guess most people are raised with "Oh god" as a regular saying when something bad happens sort of like saying "oh [place four letter word here]!!"

I agree with vetteluv, this thread is awesome because of the low numbers of pointless posts.

  Here's my two cents.... I respect other's religious beliefs, finding them harmless most of the time. However, it's when you get millions of people believing what is right without any reasoning, especially in politics that it becomes a problem.

 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.  We update everything. Our computers, textbooks, cars, electronics, clothing styles, power systems. I know this may anger a lot of religious fanatics, but perhaps it's time for a new edition.  Two thousand years ago world population was around a quarter billion now it’s over 6 billion. So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger. I say again, maybe its time for a new edition.  Religion was an excellent way to control people back then by making answers that can't be questioned without being executed.

  As far as the possibility of god, I'd say it’s extremely possible because science hasn't figured out origins of the universe for example, the big bang theory, including the things with matter and antimatter. Whatever the theory, it raises one question... where did that big ball of matter that exploded come from?  Where did the unthinkable amount of energy needed to make matter and antimatter atoms come from?  We don't know....  if religious fanatics say "oh well god exists because he is necessary and never had a beginning or an end and just is because he must be" then the non-believers say "well then how do you know the universe isn't existent just because it is?"

  Now let me get to my point, I said earlier I believe god is very possible.... HOWEVER... I don't imagine this god being anything like "an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you"(George Carlin[Napalm and Silly Putty])  I would say this god would be an invisible man living in the sky who created the universe because he can, and not only is this god the creator of the universe but himself has a creator and that which created this god has a beginning and he dosen't give a damn about earth we're just another little ball of mold floating around a star and so on... But not some dude who's like "worship me and let your planet get cluster-****ed with 7 billion people because homosexuality and abortion are wrong and if you do you can live with me forever worshipping me with every moment of eternity.

  I think religion is only making overpopulation worse. I respect the fact that every one of us, each person reading this, was at one time an embryo, but abortion on a small cluster of cells, would be no more killing a human being than if I cut the tip of my finger off with a meat slicer and tossed it in the garbage. I do however disagree with later stage abortion when there is brain activity, but before it gets advanced there is no good reason why abortion isn't okay. I personally am not for the idea of homosexuality simply because I am straight, but I really don't care. In theory, you have couples who PHYSICALLY CANNOT HAVE KIDS and they are willing to adopt children who need families. I have heard some studies say children raised by two same gendered parents grow up no differently if not better than ones with both.

 I am aware of how much I contradict myself in my post but I simply do that to 1. Keep an open mind and 2. Be a step ahead of those wanting to make contradicting points... although I do try to make my personal opinion clear.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by RMorty
 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.

Sorry, but this statement is categorically wrong – when did you last read the old testament in Aramaic, or even the new testament in Latin?

Then again, Muslims have their own updated version of the bible (OK, it is still about 1,400 years old, but still newer that 2,000 years).

The English version of the bible has been regularly updated.  Not even the King James' version is any longer what most people refer to.

Ofcourse, most of the major revisions have been a consequence of a schism in the Church (Martin Luther being a prime example, splitting the church over his attempt to have the bible translated into the vernacular, as well as some issues with papal power).

Ofcourse, other new religions, such as Scientology, also keep springing up; and the Mormons had their own particular update of the bible.

There is nothing that prevents you from drafting a revised bible, or even to completely rewrite the bible from scratch (after all, if L. Ron Hubbard can create a new religion, so can you).  The problem you have is that Christianity has a 2000 year head start on you, and has a large established user base that may not immediately wish to throw away its long established systems, systems that millions of people are comfortable with, for the new and untested invention you may have in mind).

quote:
So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger.

Not even sure that the bible does forbid abortion – not sure it was actually an issue that was raised in biblical times.  The prohibition on homosexuality is there, as is the prohibition on masturbation for men (although it is not at all clear to me that the story of Tamar and Onan is really about masturbation so much as about a woman's right to bear children, but it has subsequently been interpreted as being a prohibition on masturbation).

I don;t actually believe we are overpopulated.  What is true is that in the aftermath of industrialisation, increasingly most labour in human society is undertaken by machines rather than by human beings, and so the wealth of human societies is no longer linked to its population of humans, but rather associated to its population of machines (it is interesting that no-one argues that the world is overpopulated with machines, although there are probably more machines out there than people, and the energy and raw material consumption of those machines is far in excess of the energy and raw material usage of human beings – the only machines people tend to be sometimes concerned about are motor cars).

Ofcourse, you are always at liberty to start a religion that forbids procreation (there certainly has been many past religious societies that have demanded their members abstain from sexual practices, which inevitably means that their members did not have children).

George

[Mjhavok]

quote:Steven - I'm just curious, in your last two sentences, are you addressing rcoyle13, or all Christians in general?

Carolyn

I was addressing rcoyle13 and people who attack science without any kind of evidence or facts behind them. I know people who believe in god and I have friends who do so. It is their right to believe in what they want.

Steven
_______________________________________________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

[RMorty]

quote:
Not even sure that the bible does forbid abortion – not sure it was actually an issue that was raised in biblical times.  The prohibition on homosexuality is there....

I understand what you mean by it dosen't directly forbid abortion because, as far as I know they didn't have it then and no where in the bible is the word abortion. However, it says you should not kill and many people interpret abortions as "Murdering babies" and then the religions look at it as a violation of religious rules.

quote:
Ofcourse, you are always at liberty to start a religion that forbids procreation (there certainly has been many past religious societies that have demanded their members abstain from sexual practices, which inevitably means that their members did not have children).

  No, I don't agree with saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that's everyone's right. All I was saying is that there are things that could assist the issue of overpopulation and homosexuality and abortions are among them.  I hope everyone understands where I am coming from with this.

  All of my statements are with the assumption that religion was created to control people and I was simply trying to point out some possible explanations of why certain things in the bible are what they are.

  Also to anwser one of your questions the last time I read any version of the bible is never, sorry.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by RMorty
I understand what you mean by it dosen't directly forbid abortion because, as far as I know they didn't have it then and no where in the bible is the word abortion. However, it says you should not kill and many people interpret abortions as "Murdering babies" and then the religions look at it as a violation of religious rules.

But this does not prevent most of them from going to war.

There is a very selective interpretation of 'Thou shall not kill'.  To be fair, I suspect the original was far more selective (it certainly was not written in English, and has been subject to translation, and the losses that that imposes).  I suspect the original was more along the lines of 'Thou shall not commit murder' (analogous with the prohibition 'Thou shall not steal'.

quote:
  No, I don't agree with saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that's everyone's right. All I was saying is that there are things that could assist the issue of overpopulation and homosexuality and abortions are among them.  I hope everyone understands where I am coming from with this.

  All of my statements are with the assumption that religion was created to control people and I was simply trying to point out some possible explanations of why certain things in the bible are what they are.

The problem is that the reason people like religion is precisely because that sort of simple control absolves them from the responsibility of complex uncertainty and ambiguity of morality.

quote:
  Also to anwser one of your questions the last time I read any version of the bible is never, sorry.

I am an atheist - I do not avidly read the bible myself, and have never read it cover to cover; but I am interested in history and in human behaviour, and you cannot really understand either unless you are at least a little familiar with the religious texts that humans use.  It is true that for obvious cultural reasons, I am more familiar with the Bibles than with the Koran, or other religious texts; although they are all in their own way equally as significant in the understanding of past and present human behaviour.

[RMorty]

I agree with you on this, good discussion.  Thanks for pointing out some of those things, Another_Somone.

  Also, I have heard rumors. Only rumors, that the government has scientifically proven over almost a century of work and research that the existence of god, I mean any god is impossible.  The suspicious part is that the rumor includes that the government won't take it public because it would, for lack of a better way of putting it, piss a lot of people off.  Yes, it would. But the complexity of the possibility of being able to scientifically disprove it would be hard to agree with.  That's the problem with this topic is it's hard to say for sure that a god is impossible and on the contrary its hard to say for sure that a god is real.  That's why I say I am agnostic. For those who aren't familiar with agnosticsm it is basically beleiving that the possibility of god isnt impossible but you would need real proof to beleive it Ie. Jesus floats down from the sky ina column of light one night when your sitting in the back of your pickup truck discussing why god can't be real with your buddy after work, then he stands there and says "Okay guys I'm real so you can stop talking **** about me now.....". Then floats back up.

P.S. Isn't his 2000 year return time up yet?

[Mjhavok]

I watched a DVD of the comedian Bill Hicks and he talks about the return of christ and the fact that catholics wear crosses. He basically states that if jesus did come back to earth the last thing he would want to see is a cross. How true.

[Mjhavok]

I watched a DVD of the comedian Bill Hicks and he talks about the return of christ and the fact that catholics wear crosses. He basically states that if jesus did come back to earth the last thing he would want to see is a cross. How true.

[4getmenot]

quote:Originally posted by RMorty

quote:Originally posted by vetteluv

I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".

 I like that, because it's true, that does seem to be how it works. Yes, it is funny.  But I guess most people are raised with "Oh god" as a regular saying when something bad happens sort of like saying "oh [place four letter word here]!!"

I agree with vetteluv, this thread is awesome because of the low numbers of pointless posts.

  Here's my two cents.... I respect other's religious beliefs, finding them harmless most of the time. However, it's when you get millions of people believing what is right without any reasoning, especially in politics that it becomes a problem.

 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.  We update everything. Our computers, textbooks, cars, electronics, clothing styles, power systems. I know this may anger a lot of religious fanatics, but perhaps it's time for a new edition.  Two thousand years ago world population was around a quarter billion now it’s over 6 billion. So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger. I say again, maybe its time for a new edition.  Religion was an excellent way to control people back then by making answers that can't be questioned without being executed.

  As far as the possibility of god, I'd say it’s extremely possible because science hasn't figured out origins of the universe for example, the big bang theory, including the things with matter and antimatter. Whatever the theory, it raises one question... where did that big ball of matter that exploded come from?  Where did the unthinkable amount of energy needed to make matter and antimatter atoms come from?  We don't know....  if religious fanatics say "oh well god exists because he is necessary and never had a beginning or an end and just is because he must be" then the non-believers say "well then how do you know the universe isn't existent just because it is?"

  Now let me get to my point, I said earlier I believe god is very possible.... HOWEVER... I don't imagine this god being anything like "an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you"(George Carlin[Napalm and Silly Putty])  I would say this god would be an invisible man living in the sky who created the universe because he can, and not only is this god the creator of the universe but himself has a creator and that which created this god has a beginning and he dosen't give a damn about earth we're just another little ball of mold floating around a star and so on... But not some dude who's like "worship me and let your planet get cluster-****ed with 7 billion people because homosexuality and abortion are wrong and if you do you can live with me forever worshipping me with every moment of eternity.

  I think religion is only making overpopulation worse. I respect the fact that every one of us, each person reading this, was at one time an embryo, but abortion on a small cluster of cells, would be no more killing a human being than if I cut the tip of my finger off with a meat slicer and tossed it in the garbage. I do however disagree with later stage abortion when there is brain activity, but before it gets advanced there is no good reason why abortion isn't okay. I personally am not for the idea of homosexuality simply because I am straight, but I really don't care. In theory, you have couples who PHYSICALLY CANNOT HAVE KIDS and they are willing to adopt children who need families. I have heard some studies say children raised by two same gendered parents grow up no differently if not better than ones with both.

 I am aware of how much I contradict myself in my post but I simply do that to 1. Keep an open mind and 2. Be a step ahead of those wanting to make contradicting points... although I do try to make my personal opinion clear.

The bible is a story...Adam and Eve are only a concept....an idea of what people are supposed to be like...the ten commandments are also an idea of how people should act or not act like or do or not do etc... when the bible was written EVERYTHING would have appeared to be a miricle since noone knew any better. like what weather was for instance...yeah maybe it did rain for 40 days, but in Oregon it is not called a miricle today right?? The virgin mary having this miraculas child...well back then women who were not married were "called" "virgins". So basically it was a women having a child out of wedlock. The bible has been revised and rewritten many times only put into more "readable or understanable" terms and different languages, seems like a shame that a man made establishement can determine what chapters are put into this bible story and which ones THEY want left out of it huh?? Almost everything the bible talks about can be explained today since science and humanity has grown and become smarter. The things thus far unexplained are only a matter of time to be figured out. As for faith well..to each thier own and there is nothing wrong with it...If you take the good from ALLLLLLLLLL the different religions and just try to live your life with that then it could be a better worl to live IN. Nothing wrong with the "concept" of being good to eachother in life.

k

[Mjhavok]

I watched a DVD of the comedian Bill Hicks and he talks about the return of christ and the fact that catholics wear crosses. He basically states that if jesus did come back to earth the last thing he would want to see is a cross. How true.

[4getmenot]

quote:Originally posted by RMorty

quote:Originally posted by vetteluv

I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".

 I like that, because it's true, that does seem to be how it works. Yes, it is funny.  But I guess most people are raised with "Oh god" as a regular saying when something bad happens sort of like saying "oh [place four letter word here]!!"

I agree with vetteluv, this thread is awesome because of the low numbers of pointless posts.

  Here's my two cents.... I respect other's religious beliefs, finding them harmless most of the time. However, it's when you get millions of people believing what is right without any reasoning, especially in politics that it becomes a problem.

 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.  We update everything. Our computers, textbooks, cars, electronics, clothing styles, power systems. I know this may anger a lot of religious fanatics, but perhaps it's time for a new edition.  Two thousand years ago world population was around a quarter billion now it’s over 6 billion. So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger. I say again, maybe its time for a new edition.  Religion was an excellent way to control people back then by making answers that can't be questioned without being executed.

  As far as the possibility of god, I'd say it’s extremely possible because science hasn't figured out origins of the universe for example, the big bang theory, including the things with matter and antimatter. Whatever the theory, it raises one question... where did that big ball of matter that exploded come from?  Where did the unthinkable amount of energy needed to make matter and antimatter atoms come from?  We don't know....  if religious fanatics say "oh well god exists because he is necessary and never had a beginning or an end and just is because he must be" then the non-believers say "well then how do you know the universe isn't existent just because it is?"

  Now let me get to my point, I said earlier I believe god is very possible.... HOWEVER... I don't imagine this god being anything like "an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you"(George Carlin[Napalm and Silly Putty])  I would say this god would be an invisible man living in the sky who created the universe because he can, and not only is this god the creator of the universe but himself has a creator and that which created this god has a beginning and he dosen't give a damn about earth we're just another little ball of mold floating around a star and so on... But not some dude who's like "worship me and let your planet get cluster-****ed with 7 billion people because homosexuality and abortion are wrong and if you do you can live with me forever worshipping me with every moment of eternity.

  I think religion is only making overpopulation worse. I respect the fact that every one of us, each person reading this, was at one time an embryo, but abortion on a small cluster of cells, would be no more killing a human being than if I cut the tip of my finger off with a meat slicer and tossed it in the garbage. I do however disagree with later stage abortion when there is brain activity, but before it gets advanced there is no good reason why abortion isn't okay. I personally am not for the idea of homosexuality simply because I am straight, but I really don't care. In theory, you have couples who PHYSICALLY CANNOT HAVE KIDS and they are willing to adopt children who need families. I have heard some studies say children raised by two same gendered parents grow up no differently if not better than ones with both.

 I am aware of how much I contradict myself in my post but I simply do that to 1. Keep an open mind and 2. Be a step ahead of those wanting to make contradicting points... although I do try to make my personal opinion clear.

The bible is a story...Adam and Eve are only a concept....an idea of what people are supposed to be like...the ten commandments are also an idea of how people should act or not act like or do or not do etc... when the bible was written EVERYTHING would have appeared to be a miricle since noone knew any better. like what weather was for instance...yeah maybe it did rain for 40 days, but in Oregon it is not called a miricle today right?? The virgin mary having this miraculas child...well back then women who were not married were "called" "virgins". So basically it was a women having a child out of wedlock. The bible has been revised and rewritten many times only put into more "readable or understanable" terms and different languages, seems like a shame that a man made establishement can determine what chapters are put into this bible story and which ones THEY want left out of it huh?? Almost everything the bible talks about can be explained today since science and humanity has grown and become smarter. The things thus far unexplained are only a matter of time to be figured out. As for faith well..to each thier own and there is nothing wrong with it...If you take the good from ALLLLLLLLLL the different religions and just try to live your life with that then it could be a better worl to live IN. Nothing wrong with the "concept" of being good to eachother in life.

k

[Mjhavok]

I thought I was harsh on religion.

[Carolyn]

quote:Originally posted by Non_Believer

Don't come to me with ignorant ideas like "What if the person is: deaf, paralyzed, and blind. Life would only be to that person, non-existant." Because for one, if that were to actually happen, that person would have no reason to live, not one reason at all. They would kill the baby because of all what is apart of the baby. The person could never learn, he/she could never be able to do anything, it'd be a lifeless body. They couldn't move, respond, or anything that humans with most of their senses about them could do.

After reading your post here, especially this paragraph, I think you have a lot of nerve calling me ignorant.

Have a nice day[]

Carolyn

P.S. Steven, I am often harsh on religion also.