Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?

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Offline MikeS

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Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« on: 02/01/2012 07:46:34 »
According to the big bang theory (more or less) the our Universe started off as a singularity from which originated all the energy(/mass) that is and is contained within the Universe.

If energy (as well as mass) creates gravity then what is the difference between the above and saying the Universe originated from a black (or white) hole?

If a black hole then what mechanism can cause a black hole to effectively explode (for lack of a better way of phrasing it)?

I know this is bordering on the unknown but it would still be good to get some feedback.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2012 07:45:42 by MikeS »

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Offline Bill S

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #1 on: 03/01/2012 01:27:49 »
I imagine a lot would depend on what, if anything, preceded the Big Bang.  Presumably, in order to be a black hole it would have to exist in something.  We would then have to ask what that something might have been.
There never was nothing.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #2 on: 03/01/2012 07:47:32 »
Bill S
True and I have amended the question accordingly.

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Offline Bill S

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #3 on: 03/01/2012 17:59:49 »
All we need now is an answer.  :)
There never was nothing.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #4 on: 04/01/2012 06:52:38 »
That would be nice.  Anyone?

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #5 on: 04/01/2012 14:52:19 »
It would probably have to be another universe similar to ours and so on.  At the moment we do not know what goes on behind the event horizon of a black hole and are not confident enough of our knowledge of physics to try to predict it but it will probably end up as some sort of violent explosion of time and space and not a cold mathematical singularity.  The exploding black hole would of course always be behind its own event horizon because whatever it did it could not possibly explode through it. We are also reasonably confident what black holes do toward the end of their lives.  That is as long as they are in very cold empty space they evaporate extremely slowly and finally go out with a small pop (a very long way from a big bang) that represents the conversion of a few tons of matter into pure energy.

Using the standard black hole reference page  http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/

In its final year an evaporating black hole works through about 70,000 metric tons of mass and radiates it away as particles and energy.  That is less than our sun gets through every second.  In its last second it gets through about 220 metric tons.  The explosion is about one and a half million megatons in nuclear terms but that is absolutely microscopic compared with a supernova in fact it would be difficult to detect an exploding black hole much further away than the nearest star.  This is a very long way away from anything like the big bang.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2012 16:33:23 by Soul Surfer »
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Offline Bill S

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #6 on: 04/01/2012 16:53:35 »
Quote from: SS
The exploding black hole would of course always be behind its own event horizon because whatever it did it could not possibly explode through it.

Where would a naked singularity fit into this picture?
There never was nothing.

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Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #7 on: 05/01/2012 03:10:02 »
There seem to be more theories about Black Holes than actual observations.
There is some evidence that the Black Holes are capable of emitting some highly energetic matter.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/23/extragalctic_black_hole_snap/

What we don't know is what would happen to a Black Hole if it contained all the matter and energy of a billion galaxies....  or, for that matter, just a half a dozen large galaxies.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #8 on: 05/01/2012 08:37:53 »
Clip
There seem to be more theories about Black Holes than actual observations.
There is some evidence that the Black Holes are capable of emitting some highly energetic matter.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/23/extragalctic_black_hole_snap/



It is speculated that if a black hole is fed with 'food' faster than it can 'swallow' it, some is thrown out in the form of energetic jets.  These jets can be as long as the diameter of a galaxy, contain antimatter particles, be seen to be accelerating and travelling at a significant proportion of the speed of light.  This mechanism is poorly understood and seems to be counter intuitive unless the antimatter originates within the event horizon of the black hole.  It then makes perfect sense.

http://www.spacetoday.org/DeepSpace/Galaxies/MilkyWay/Antimatter.html
« Last Edit: 05/01/2012 08:41:08 by MikeS »

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Offline imatfaal

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #9 on: 05/01/2012 10:26:38 »
Clifford and Mike - I am not sure there is a mechanism for matter to go beyond EH and then be spurted out - what definitely happens is that the black hole is a very messy eater and a fair percentage of the matter and energy that is sucked towards the black hole ends up being ejected at enormous speed before it reaches the EH.  If you do have links to matter crossing in and back out I would love to read them
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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #10 on: 05/01/2012 11:21:01 »
imatfall

quote from my last post
"unless the antimatter originates within the event horizon of the black hole.  It then makes perfect sense."

I don't have any links but the idea is simply based on that is what would happen if matter and antimatter gravitationally repel each other which is certainly a distinct possibility but as yet unknown/unproven.

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Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #11 on: 05/01/2012 15:25:44 »
Interesting about the positron emissions.

Perhaps as part of the condensing matter in the black hole, the black holes must shed positive charges from the protons to prevent +/+ interactions.  Of course, that means both loosing electrons and positrons to maintain a neutral system.

Electrons and Positrons, of course, are heavy compared to photons, but light compared to protons and neutrons.  The exact mechanism and origin of the emissions needs more research. 

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Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #12 on: 05/01/2012 19:20:00 »
I don't have any links but the idea is simply based on that is what would happen if matter and antimatter gravitationally repel each other which is certainly a distinct possibility but as yet unknown/unproven.

The above discussion was specifically related to Positrons, so I'll limit my discussion to that particle.

The positrons are relatively easy to make, so I believe they've been extensively studied.

According to Wikipedia, there are specific masses attributed to each of the elementary particles:
Neutron Mass: 1.674927351(74)◊10−27 kg
Proton Mass:   1.672621777(74)◊10−27 kg
Positron Mass:9.10938215(45)◊10−31 kg
Electron Mass:9.10938291(40)◊10−31 kg

With a neutron being slightly heavier than a proton, and a positron being a slightly different mass than an electron.

However,
One also has the simple decays:

Neutron minus Electron --> Proton (lighter particle)
Proton minus Positron --> Neutron (heavier particle)

Which I would think takes one in a circle. 

So, is it possible that the positron mass is actually fundamentally different than the electron mass?
« Last Edit: 05/01/2012 19:31:33 by CliffordK »

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Offline Yuling

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #13 on: 05/01/2012 20:19:54 »
There seem to be more theories about Black Holes than actual observations.

This is true.

In fact, Hawking radiation (an attempt to explain away the information loss paradox) has not been directly observed and as such, has no observational 'proof' to back it up. It only has math to back it up. There are stronger theories out there which are ridiculed because of a lack of observational evidence or because we lack the technology to test (e.g, string theory).

While likely correct, until we observe Hawking radiation, I think people need to stop talking about it as if it's already fact.

Nobody knows what goes on inside a black hole - quantum mechanics and relativity both break down at the singularity so no predictions can be made. Everything everyone says about what happens at the singularity is pure speculation.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #14 on: 06/01/2012 07:40:07 »
Clifford

When I talk about antimatter emissions from black holes I am referring to positron emission as you observed.  It is speculated that the intense energy and gravitational forces at work within the event horizon would create electron positron pairs.  If matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive then the electron is bound by the intense gravitational field whilst the positron is gravitationally expelled through the event horizon and accelerates away.

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Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #15 on: 06/01/2012 08:10:49 »
If matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive then the electron is bound by the intense gravitational field whilst the positron is gravitationally expelled through the event horizon and accelerates away.
Which could be a problem because one would quickly develop a large negative charge within the black hole, and a large positive charge in the surrounding space where electrons are annihilated. 

It is apparently possible to make a positron beam, so I would think the reaction of a positron beam to Earth's gravity (vs electron beam control) could be observed in a linear particle accelerator (using it like a large vacuum tube).  The Stanford Linear Accelerator Center is 1.9 miles long, with CERN planning to make a 20 mile linear accelerator in the future if they can justify the $6.7 billion dollar price tag.

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Offline imatfaal

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #16 on: 06/01/2012 10:57:19 »
I don't have any links but the idea is simply based on that is what would happen if matter and antimatter gravitationally repel each other which is certainly a distinct possibility but as yet unknown/unproven.

The above discussion was specifically related to Positrons, so I'll limit my discussion to that particle.

The positrons are relatively easy to make, so I believe they've been extensively studied.

According to Wikipedia, there are specific masses attributed to each of the elementary particles:
Neutron Mass: 1.674927351(74)◊10−27 kg
Proton Mass:   1.672621777(74)◊10−27 kg
Positron Mass:9.10938215(45)◊10−31 kg
Electron Mass:9.10938291(40)◊10−31 kg

With a neutron being slightly heavier than a proton, and a positron being a slightly different mass than an electron.

However,
One also has the simple decays:

Neutron minus Electron --> Proton (lighter particle)
Proton minus Positron --> Neutron (heavier particle)

Which I would think takes one in a circle. 

So, is it possible that the positron mass is actually fundamentally different than the electron mass?

Clifford - I am not sure this is quite what you are getting at - but your two "simple decays" are a little misleading.  They seem to be over-simplified versions of [tex]\beta^-[/tex]and [tex]\beta^+[/tex] but they are missing neutrinos antineutrinos and and Energy input for [tex]\beta ^+[/tex].  Natural proton decay - ie without a boost of energy is predicted, but very rare, halflife is 10^32 years and is via pions.

I will put more detail in for the two forms of beta decay when I get my keyboard sorted out (my new linux distro has defaulted my keyboard to a wrong setting and I cannot find the slash and backslash which makes typing latex equations very labourious)
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Offline imatfaal

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #17 on: 06/01/2012 11:17:25 »
There seem to be more theories about Black Holes than actual observations.

This is true.

In fact, Hawking radiation (an attempt to explain away the information loss paradox) has not been directly observed and as such, has no observational 'proof' to back it up. It only has math to back it up. There are stronger theories out there which are ridiculed because of a lack of observational evidence or because we lack the technology to test (e.g, string theory).

While likely correct, until we observe Hawking radiation, I think people need to stop talking about it as if it's already fact.

Nobody knows what goes on inside a black hole - quantum mechanics and relativity both break down at the singularity so no predictions can be made. Everything everyone says about what happens at the singularity is pure speculation.

Yuling - firstly welcome to the forum!

second - Hawking Radiation was not an attempt to explain away the information loss paradox, it was the cause of the information loss.  According to the theory of Hawking and Bekenstein the information in the radiation (a mixed quantum state) could not include the pure quantum information of the particle that fell into the black hole.  Hawkings postulated solution was quantum fluctuations in space time emanating from the EH - this is by no means agreed.

And although Hawking Radiation has never been observed (we are looking through the GLAST programme) it relies on the same set of axiomata and preconditions as the rest of mainstream physics and the maths and logic flow from the body of work that is experimentally supported.  Other less accepted theories use new and difficult preconditions.  String Theory is a strange one - it is mathematically beautiful and self-consistent, but at present it is not linked to reality enough; it does not use the same lean and simple axiomata, and it is not open to empirical testing.  There are so many variants of string theory ( ie changable variables that will produce different physical predictions) that it is a matter of tuning to reproduce particle masses etc - until some more non-string theory reasons for these particular tunings and assumptions can be shown string theory will continue to be interesting but not mainstream.


regarding your last paragraph - totally agree.  Any theories about the singularity or past the event horizon even are fundamentally divorced from our reality and must be treated with skepticism.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 11:29:21 by imatfaal »
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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #18 on: 06/01/2012 11:25:47 »
If matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive then the electron is bound by the intense gravitational field whilst the positron is gravitationally expelled through the event horizon and accelerates away.
Which could be a problem because one would quickly develop a large negative charge within the black hole, and a large positive charge in the surrounding space where electrons are annihilated. 


Clifford
Why is this a problem?

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Offline imatfaal

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #19 on: 06/01/2012 11:33:32 »
If matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive then the electron is bound by the intense gravitational field whilst the positron is gravitationally expelled through the event horizon and accelerates away.
Which could be a problem because one would quickly develop a large negative charge within the black hole, and a large positive charge in the surrounding space where electrons are annihilated. 


Clifford
Why is this a problem?

For a start the like charge of the black hole and the electron will repel and the electrons will stop falling into the hole at some point - the opposite charge of the BH and the positron will attract and eventually overcome gravitational repulsion.  BUT please can we keep speculative theories to NEW THEORIES
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Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #20 on: 06/01/2012 12:28:27 »
Clifford - I am not sure this is quite what you are getting at - but your two "simple decays" are a little misleading.  They seem to be over-simplified versions of [tex]\beta^-[/tex]and [tex]\beta^+[/tex] but they are missing neutrinos antineutrinos and and Energy input for [tex]\beta ^+[/tex].  Natural proton decay - ie without a boost of energy is predicted, but very rare, halflife is 10^32 years and is via pions.

10C (10.0168532 u) --> 10B (10.0129370 u) (β+)
11C (11.0114336 u) --> 11B (11.0093054 u) (β+)
13N (13.00573861 u) --> 13C (13.0033548378 u) (β+)
13O (13.024812 u) --> 13N (13.00573861 u) (β+) (89.1% of the time)
14O (14.00859625 u) --> 14N (14.0030740048 u) (β+)
15O (15.0030656 u) --> 15N (15.0001088982 u) (β+)
229U (229.033506 u) --> 229Pa (229.0320968 u) (β+) (80% of the time)

So, while β+ (positron) decay is not uncommon, one does, in fact, loose mass in conjunction with the decay, greater than the published mass of an electron (0.0005 4857990946 u) (which would also be lost).

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Offline imatfaal

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #21 on: 06/01/2012 16:42:38 »
Clifford - I am not sure this is quite what you are getting at - but your two "simple decays" are a little misleading.  They seem to be over-simplified versions of [tex]\beta^-[/tex]and [tex]\beta^+[/tex] but they are missing neutrinos antineutrinos and and Energy input for [tex]\beta ^+[/tex].  Natural proton decay - ie without a boost of energy is predicted, but very rare, halflife is 10^32 years and is via pions.

10C (10.0168532 u) --> 10B (10.0129370 u) (β+)
11C (11.0114336 u) --> 11B (11.0093054 u) (β+)
13N (13.00573861 u) --> 13C (13.0033548378 u) (β+)
13O (13.024812 u) --> 13N (13.00573861 u) (β+) (89.1% of the time)
14O (14.00859625 u) --> 14N (14.0030740048 u) (β+)
15O (15.0030656 u) --> 15N (15.0001088982 u) (β+)
229U (229.033506 u) --> 229Pa (229.0320968 u) (β+) (80% of the time)

So, while β+ (positron) decay is not uncommon, one does, in fact, loose mass in conjunction with the decay, greater than the published mass of an electron (0.0005 4857990946 u) (which would also be lost).


One never violates mass/energy conservation in these reactions - and there certainly is no circular decay path.  I am still not sure what you are getting at.

[tex]\beta^+ [/tex]decay
[tex]Energy + p = n + e^+ +\nu_e[/tex]
This is NOT equivalent to
[tex] p = n + e^+ [/tex]
which you seem to be implying it is. 
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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #22 on: 07/01/2012 07:16:27 »
If matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive then the electron is bound by the intense gravitational field whilst the positron is gravitationally expelled through the event horizon and accelerates away.
Which could be a problem because one would quickly develop a large negative charge within the black hole, and a large positive charge in the surrounding space where electrons are annihilated. 


Clifford
Why is this a problem?

For a start the like charge of the black hole and the electron will repel and the electrons will stop falling into the hole at some point - the opposite charge of the BH and the positron will attract and eventually overcome gravitational repulsion.  BUT please can we keep speculative theories to NEW THEORIES

But the charge of the black hole is within the event horizon so surely is not felt by the electrons outside the event horizon?  Also charge is short range where gravity is long range and we are talking overwhelming gravity.
Positrons are likely to be expelled at great velocity due to the immense gravity of the black hole.  The gravitational 'push' whilst declining with distance is still going to accelerate the positrons.  The charge attraction being short range soon declines with distance.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #23 on: 07/01/2012 07:34:38 »
imatfaal

I have no objection to you splitting this thread if you like.  The problem, I find is there tends to be very little debate in the New Theories forum.  As well as having a New Theories forum perhaps a Non-Mainstream sub section could be added to Physics, Astronomy and Cosmology forum?  This way non-mainstream ideas that are not necessarily new-theories as such could be discussed.  If it was a sub-section Moderators could move any posts in the main forum to the sub section if relevant and without asking.  So long as the posts were cross indexed it should not be a problem.  Just an idea.  What do you think?

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Offline Peteuplink

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #24 on: 08/01/2012 12:32:27 »
I was once told that asking the question of what was before the big bang is like asking what is beyond the north pole...
"Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hour's drive away if your car could go straight upwards." - Fred Hoyle

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #25 on: 08/01/2012 12:52:29 »
I was once told that asking the question of what was before the big bang is like asking what is beyond the north pole...


Easy, the South Pole.

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Offline dropoutscience

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #26 on: 28/01/2012 18:29:07 »
what if two super black holes, say like the one in our galaxy and another galaxy collide and pull each other in? would they not possibly have enough gravity to suck in more? and if it occured could it not suck in another super black hole in another galaxy until the whole universe was sucked into a tiny unstable particle by the mass creating (if it's possible) what I would call a big bang particle? just a thought.

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Offline MikeS

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #27 on: 29/01/2012 07:57:58 »
The universe is thought to be expanding and that expansion accelerating.  If correct and this trend is not reversed then it would appear that gravity has lost the battle and black holes will not win out. If on the other hand gravity does win then black holes could keep combining theoretically until there is just one super black hole containing all of the mass and energy of the universe unless there is some unknown process that can stop it.

I can't go into further detail in this mainline thread but it is theoretically possible that the universe may be cyclic.
« Last Edit: 29/01/2012 08:02:50 by MikeS »

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Offline dchung

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #28 on: 11/12/2012 11:47:35 »
I'm not a smart person.. but I wanna weigh in on this to hear what you guys think .. nature tends to revolve everything , like the rain cycle or stuff like that.. So, do you think the Big Bang was a black hole that sucked in the whole 'old' universe, then exploded a new one ? .. like a universe recycling system ?.. What do u think brainy ppl ? educate me with your grand nerdliness, if you would ..  :) (with luv)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #29 on: 11/12/2012 15:57:33 »
We all want to know :)
And maybe we will.
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
« Reply #30 on: 16/12/2012 05:46:23 »
Re:
Quote
Was the Big Bang an exploding Black Hole?
I think the question may be worded ambiguously:
  • From a viewpoint outside the black hole, anything that passes the event horizon does not come out again intact, as far as we know [apart from diffused radiation if and when the black hole evaporates]
  • If the big bang was initially dense enough to form a black hole [seems logical, given current theories], then our viewpoint is not outside the event horizon, it is inside the event horizon.
  • So the most interesting question is not "what can cause a black hole to effectively explode [from a viewpoint outside the black hole]?"
  • But "what can cause a black hole to effectively explode [from a viewpoint inside the black hole]?"

As Yuling said:
Quote
Everything everyone says about what happens at the singularity is pure speculation.

One attempt to guide those speculations looked at light cones (the path of light emitted at a point, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone). They looked at light cones outside the black hole, and tried to extrapolate that to the event horizon, and then inside the event horizon. Assuming this extrapolation to have some validity, the volume inside the black hole may have consistent physics, but would not be considered "normal space" by an observer outside the black hole!

One interpretation of this extrapolation is that inside the event horizon, the dimensions of time and space are swapped, in some sense.

Could what seems to an observer outside the black hole like matter & energy falling into an extended surface over an extended period of time could seem to an observer within the black hole like a lot of energy appearing at a single point in space at a single point in time?

This conjures up an image of an Inception-like series of nested universes with twisted geometries,  in some sense embedded in one another, but cut off from one another.
« Last Edit: 16/12/2012 19:55:26 by evan_au »