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Quote from: Skyli on 29/10/2013 22:57:28Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2013 20:21:15Has science ever proved the materialist "fact " to be "true " , or rather the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that reality as a whole is just exclusively physical material ?Why on Earth would science even be interested? Science doesn't deal with "reality as a whole", Learning does. Science deals with "Observable Reality". For example, I believe in God, but I do not believe that science can or will ever prove or disprove God. Of course, God is not observable and, consequently, science is not in the least interested in proving or disproving God. My concept of Reality - my areas of Learning, if you like - encompass more than science, but I consider them all equally valid and quite distinct.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2013 20:21:15Has science ever proved the materialist "fact " to be "true " , or rather the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that reality as a whole is just exclusively physical material ?Why on Earth would science even be interested? Science doesn't deal with "reality as a whole", Learning does. Science deals with "Observable Reality". For example, I believe in God, but I do not believe that science can or will ever prove or disprove God. Of course, God is not observable and, consequently, science is not in the least interested in proving or disproving God. My concept of Reality - my areas of Learning, if you like - encompass more than science, but I consider them all equally valid and quite distinct.
Has science ever proved the materialist "fact " to be "true " , or rather the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that reality as a whole is just exclusively physical material ?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2013 18:10:36Science can try to approach the non-physical and non-biological non-material side of reality as a wholeAnd there, I believe, is the rub. Yes, Science can, but then it wouldn't be Science. It comes back to the confusion about what "science" is that I mentioned in my last post.
Science can try to approach the non-physical and non-biological non-material side of reality as a whole
Science is not and never will be the spring of all knowledge. The correct term for this is Learning and its goal is, basically, knowing all there is to know. Its a pretty big area so, in order to acquire Learning, we break it down in to various areas. Science is just one, along with many others, both respectable and not. Science deals with the observable, basta! There may come a day when our descendants can tick of the "science" box in Learning because science has done its job. It has classified everything that can be observed. Perhaps, along the way, we will evolve additional sensory mechanisms and science will need expanding; who knows where such an expansion could lead?
In the meantime it is Sciences job to define the origin of life according to what it can observe and test. Science is not there yet but it is making great headway. It is counter-productive to muddy the boundaries between science and other areas of Learning, unless one is selling sensational books or videos; I have no time for Shelldrakes or any of the myriad psuedo-scientists of the religious press who are constantly using this tactic to denigrate science. It is what it is.
As long as science will keep on reducing the whole reality to just physics and chemistry (thanks to materialism ) , including life , consciousness , emotions feelings , human reason , human conscience ....science will just be giving us a distorted reflection of reality as a whole ,unfortunately enough .Only when science will reject materialism , an inevitable fact , simply because materialism is outdated false and has been superseded by the physical sciences themselves even , and simply because science's self-rejuvenating and self - cleansing , self - regenerating critical powers faculties and inrinsic properties can enable science to reject all false assumptions , including and mainly those of materialism , when science thus will be able to do just that , whole unimaginable new vistas will open up for science , when science will cease thus to "see " the whole reality as just a matter of physics and chemistry thus.
Smart Neurons: Single Neuronal Dendrites Can Perform Computationshttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131027140632.htmWell this is kind of interesting to ponder. "The scientists achieved an important breakthrough: they succeeded in making incredibly challenging electrical and optical recordings directly from the tiny dendrites of neurons in the intact brain while the brain was processing visual information.....The results challenge the widely held view that this kind of computation is achieved only by large numbers of neurons working together, and demonstrate how the basic components of the brain are exceptionally powerful computing devices in their own right."The study was published this week in Nature.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 30/10/2013 19:31:58As long as science will keep on reducing the whole reality to just physics and chemistry (thanks to materialism ) , including life , consciousness , emotions feelings , human reason , human conscience ....science will just be giving us a distorted reflection of reality as a whole ,unfortunately enough .Only when science will reject materialism , an inevitable fact , simply because materialism is outdated false and has been superseded by the physical sciences themselves even , and simply because science's self-rejuvenating and self - cleansing , self - regenerating critical powers faculties and inrinsic properties can enable science to reject all false assumptions , including and mainly those of materialism , when science thus will be able to do just that , whole unimaginable new vistas will open up for science , when science will cease thus to "see " the whole reality as just a matter of physics and chemistry thus.I wouldnt say science tries to reduce things to chemistry and physics. I would say that what science can observe is chemistry and physics by nature.. because science cant explain things doesn't mean they will stop trying to as that is the nature of science. You state things which have yet to be proven as not chemistry or physics as things that cannot be proven by chemistry or physics, as things that aren't chemistry or physics.. but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Science has recently (last century on wards) tried to tell us things work in a certain way without solid proof.. and it is a trend that worries me (as I have posted a few threads and posts about the very same subject) but science itself abhors these, and it will eventually weed them out. Its not a battle against spiritualism, its trying to find an explanation for it. Saying "you will never know" is about as much use as reading a book from a hat to form a religion.. (oh wait someone did that).
Wrong, as usual. The art of science is not to make untestable assumptions, and to test any that you do make. Unlike whatever it is that you consider to be a superior intellectual process, wherein it seems that all assertions are deemed to be true, regardless of absurdity. I thought Aristotle and Plato were dead.
Modern science has been reducing observable, empirical reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/11/2013 18:01:14Modern science has been reducing observable, empirical reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .Fixed that for you If it's not observable & empirical, you can't reduce it to physics and chemistry. Speculation & hypothesis is not, of itself, science. It's worth remembering that, just as not everything a writer does is writing, not everything scientists do is science.
Modern science has been reducing reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/11/2013 18:01:14Modern science has been reducing reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , to just physical material biological processes since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism, while science should in fact try to deal only with the observable, empirical ...part of reality , the rest "falls " outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus ,once again .I can't help but notice that you are now substituting "reality as a whole" for "science" in your argument. I'm not sure what you want from scientists, an official announcement that something may exist that science cannot verify or falsify? A public apology for "failing" to explain everything "fully" ?You've never described how science is supposed to incorporate the immaterial into experiments, how doing so will benefit them or free them - free them to do what? At any rate, as dlorde said, scientists do other things and have other interests beside science. It is not the whole of their reality. CERN has Artists in Residence and some of their projects are pretty cool. Here is a link to their gallery. http://arts.web.cern.ch/gallery/norfolk/ Some of the projects are visual, but others are an interesting combinations of art and science, art and technology, and art and the experimental process. Their first artist in residence, Juliuis Von Bismarck, has some interesting things, a device called the Image Fulgurator, a hacked camera that injected stealth images into other people’s photos when they weren’t looking. In a work called Public Face, he mounted a giant neon smiley above the city of Berlin; the smiley changed its expression based on algorithms developed by the Fraunhofer Institute to analyze peoples’ faces on the street. A project called Self Revolving Torus is an exploration of toroidal shapes.http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/03/cern-artist-von-bismarck/On a personal note, once I was in the MoMA in New York, and there was this painting that looked like an abstract work, but having spent the last five years looking through a microscope for parasites, I knew instantly that it was a trichrome stain of human fecal material. The title of the painting was "Good Government." (I was the only person in the museum that day who laughed.) In the lab, I often looked through the microscope and seen images that would make great paintings. You might like this sculpture from another CERN artist, it's called "Feeling Material."
All i am saying , once again , is that science is only concerned with the observable, empirical ....part of reality science should limit itself to , but science has been going beyond its own scientific method , beyond its own realm and jurisdiction for so long now
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/11/2013 19:22:59All i am saying , once again , is that science is only concerned with the observable, empirical ....part of reality science should limit itself to , but science has been going beyond its own scientific method , beyond its own realm and jurisdiction for so long now How has science gone beyond its jurisdiction to attack non materialist views? How is a chemist doing chemistry experiments, or a physicist doing physics experts, or an entomologist doing bug experiments, or an ichthyologist doing fish experiments, going beyond their jurisdiction??? Who are these evil scientists who sit in their evil labs and create materialist paradigms to brainwash the unsuspecting masses?
(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , including in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy ...including even in art and literature .Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity , thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason, life in general (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general, ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ..." The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .Get that ? Bye
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/11/2013 21:31:05(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , Quoteincluding in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy ...including even in art and literature .Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity , thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason, life in general (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general, ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ..." The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .Get that ? ByeWho is the "secular materialist establishment?" Who is their leader and high ranking officials? Where are their offices located?
(Regardless of your irrelevant rhetorics on the subject ) :Materialism has been, once again, dominating in all sciences and elsewhere , Quoteincluding in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy ...including even in art and literature .Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity , thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason, life in general (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general, ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ..." The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .Get that ? ByeWho is the "secular materialist establishment?" Who is their leader and high ranking officials? Where are their offices located?
including in the so-called human sciences , including in anthropology , history writing , sociology , evolutionary psychology, economy, political science , including in religions ' comparisons studies , including in philosophy ...including even in art and literature .Secular materialist establishment that 's been the undisputed dominating cultural social scientific ....supreme and ultimate authority ,that had replaced that of the medieval church and christianity , thanks to the Eurocentric "enlightenment " movement ...Biology as the 'science of life " also reduces life to just physics and chemistry thus , thanks to materialism or physicalism as some like to put it , including all the physical sciences ...Science and most scientists have been wrong in assuming that reality as a whole is just material physical =(= a materialist false belief assumption , false conception of nature ) , thanks to materialism thus , so, everything , including human consciousness,human free will, the human mind or reason, life in general (including its origins evolution and emergence ) , human reason , feelings , emotions ....human love,consciousness in general, ....have been reduced to just material biological physical processes , via some neuronal machine-like ,computer -like computational magical mechanisms , emergent property magical tricks regarding consciousness ...So, logically , science would consider all non-materialist beliefs for that matter , all of the immaterial side of reality , all of the immaterial side of life , ....as just products of physics and chemistry ,including consciousness, human reason , human love ... or as just illusions , delusions ..." The scientific world view " is therefore materialist = rejects and excludes a-priori any non-materialist world views or non-material phenomena , including the non-physical and non-material non-biological side of reality as a whole .Get that ? Bye
Don, you're attacking an enemy that doesn't exist. You are opposing an argument that scientists don't make.
I've never read a neurology experiment that ended with "oh, and by the way, the mind doesn't exist and you are all souless automatrons."
I've never seen a physics experiment refuting the existence of God.
I've never read a sociology paper titled "The Non-existence of Love."
I've never seen a biology experiment that said "In conclusion, when you die, you rot in the ground and there is no afterlife."
Although, there was research done by a religious institution claiming that black holes fulfill all the technical requirements to be the location of Hell. (Jack and Van Impe, 2001.) Religious nuts don't have a problem stretching science's "jurisdiction" when it suits them.
Quote from: dlorde on 04/11/2013 22:33:21Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.