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The role of DNA or genes in heredity is way too exaggerated : DNA is certainly not the 'architect " of life : see how all cells of our bodies do have the same DNA , and yet our body parts do have different forms : DNA alone cannot account for that : otherwise , it would be like saying that different buildings that were built from the same material , via the same work energy and via different plans thus are the ...same .
The human genome project , for example , has failed in telling us why we are so different from our alleged closest "relatives " the chimps with which we do allegedly share the same origin .
The chimps do share more than 99% DNA material with us though , but that does not explain why we are so different from them, on the contrary .
Not to mention that even rice does have no less than 38 000 genes ,while humans do have only 23 000 genes : how come then that we are way more complex than rice then ? if genes or if DNA is what allegedly define us as human beings .How come that even some plants have more genes than us ?
Homeobox genes , for example , are identical in fruit flies , in humans and in other species , but yet they cannot account for the major form differences between humans and fruitflies ...let alone for their respective degrees of complexity .
There is a lot to say on the subject ,so, i am gonna just leave it at that then, for the time being at least .
QuoteQuote from: dlorde on 24/11/2013 18:36:29Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/11/2013 16:39:21since heredity can also be epigenetic... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might get inherited in their turn somehowOnly if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.What makes you think that that's the only option : can you predict the future scientific discoveries on the subject already ?
Quote from: dlorde on 24/11/2013 18:36:29Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/11/2013 16:39:21since heredity can also be epigenetic... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might get inherited in their turn somehowOnly if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/11/2013 16:39:21since heredity can also be epigenetic... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might get inherited in their turn somehowOnly if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.
since heredity can also be epigenetic... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might get inherited in their turn somehow
Not to mention that even rice does have no less than 38 000 genes ,while humans do have only 23 000 genes : how come then that we are way more complex than rice then ?
The mind is not in the brain, memory is not stored in the brain ...and hence qualia is not in the brain .It's the other way around in fact : the brain is in the mind, and the body is in the mind .The non-physical mind does affect the physical brain ,and vice versa ,how ? : that remains to be seen ...The mind is more fundamental than matter can ever be , so, the mind might be underlying the laws of physics , not the other way around .
QuoteYou'll have to be a little more specific about what those "mental psychological environmental implications and traits'' are in order for me to answer, unless you want a response that is as vague and ambiguous as the question. Which specific traits are you referring to?
You'll have to be a little more specific about what those "mental psychological environmental implications and traits'' are in order for me to answer, unless you want a response that is as vague and ambiguous as the question. Which specific traits are you referring to?
Do tragic events such as wars , famine , holocaust , natural disasters and the like not have psychological and mental implications on the people who were / are unfortunate enough to be experiencing them ?
The physiological enviromental inherited effects of such and other enviromental implications might be not the only kind of heredetary implications .The mental or psychological implications that are irreducible to the physical ,since reality cannot be just material or physical .
Lamarck must have been right when he used to say that acquired characteristics or traits , due to the adaptations and habits of living organisms to the environment might be passed on as well to the next generations .
In my opinion, the physiological environmental heredetary side of the pic is not the whole pic : the mental and psychological implications of and adaptations to wars , famine,holocaust , black slavery ...with all the stress and the rest that go with that ,with all the diseases that go with that , might be inherited by the next generations as well .
dlorde :Gotta go: I've spent way too much time here already , i can hardly afford to be spending : Just answer my core questions,concerning the mental or non-physical side of the 'equation " of the whole pic of reality ,you cannot just ignore , via some irrational belief of yours , the mental that's irreducible to and more fundamental than the physical , even at the level of inheritance thus, instead of telling me about things i already know via those wiki links of yours ( I never liked wiki anyway : way too a medium for every idiot to writte in ) ,instead of telling me materialist magical bed time stories fairy tales ,for kids .Thanks, appreciate indeed .
RD : I am neither interested in your materialist mechanical magic in science
Should we totally discard any scientist or thinker who happens to have used drugs ?
What makes you think i have been saying what i have been saying , thanks to some kind of drugs ?
"... for me probably the first jolt out of the belief that materialism could explain everything was taking LSD ... some acid trips I had ..."
Get real
... i never liked you, and i still do not ,and i never will
At the risk of stating the obvious, drug-users perception is further from reality than people who are not altered by drugs.
... are typically occasional instances of early adulthood ... (LSD is not generally considered addictive) ...
There are some cases of LSD inducing a psychosis in people who appeared to be healthy before taking LSD.In most cases, the psychosis-like reaction is of short duration, but in other cases it may be chronic.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/11/2013 20:19:14dlorde :Gotta go: I've spent way too much time here already , i can hardly afford to be spending : Just answer my core questions,concerning the mental or non-physical side of the 'equation " of the whole pic of reality ,you cannot just ignore , via some irrational belief of yours , the mental that's irreducible to and more fundamental than the physical , even at the level of inheritance thus, instead of telling me about things i already know via those wiki links of yours ( I never liked wiki anyway : way too a medium for every idiot to writte in ) ,instead of telling me materialist magical bed time stories fairy tales ,for kids .Thanks, appreciate indeed .Don mate, you're projecting - as usual. The irrational beliefs are yours (what did you say, "beyond science, reason, and logic"? something like that), and I suspect you know it, although you can't admit it - that's what makes you so grumpy and irritable. But you're right to question your core beliefs; I hope you find some material answers, they're out there if you look.
If not, science will simply continue its progress investigating the material anyway, and you'll continue your special pleading for the immaterial; going nowhere; talking about nothing. Your contribution will be immaterial - congratulations.
science that must be totally free in exploring reality , whatever the latter might turn out to be : no one and no ideology such as materialism can dictate to science what specific areas of reality science must explore: science as a relatively still a young adventurer that will break free from any dogmas chains such as those of materialism that have been restricting the exploring power and nature of science .
... lies , untruths ...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/11/2013 18:14:32QuoteYou'll have to be a little more specific about what those "mental psychological environmental implications and traits'' are in order for me to answer, unless you want a response that is as vague and ambiguous as the question. Which specific traits are you referring to?QuoteDo tragic events such as wars , famine , holocaust , natural disasters and the like not have psychological and mental implications on the people who were / are unfortunate enough to be experiencing them ?Yes, they do have psychological effects on people who experience them.
QuoteThe physiological enviromental inherited effects of such and other enviromental implications might be not the only kind of heredetary implications .The mental or psychological implications that are irreducible to the physical ,since reality cannot be just material or physical .There are genes that code for psychological traits, mental abilities, and behaviors. Behavioral or mental traits tend to be complex, often involving combinations of genes. The expression of these genes, or how they manifest themselves, often depends on the environment of that individual, as well. But mental and behavioral traits can be selected for, just as physical traits can be selected. I don't know if any epigenetic effects on them have been discovered yet.
Why do you say he must have been right? Epigenetics is not really the same idea as Lamarck's theory. Epigenetics still requires chemical changes to the DNA, or the genes being expressed or suppressed. Larmark's idea was that a giraffe, for example, got a longer neck simply by stretching it a lot, and somehow passed this on to the next generation of giraffes. He didn't account for natural selection, or any chemical mechanism directly affecting genes.
QuoteIn my opinion, the physiological environmental heredetary side of the pic is not the whole pic : the mental and psychological implications of and adaptations to wars , famine,holocaust , black slavery ...with all the stress and the rest that go with that ,with all the diseases that go with that , might be inherited by the next generations as well .Absolutely, these adaptations are passed on through learning, through culture, through religion, through tradition, through books, through art, etc. But they are not permanent changes. That is, if you took an infant out of that culture, and raised him in a completely different one, and he had no access to that culture or its history and traditions, he would not have a genetic memory of those things. Never the less, one should not, in my opinion, discount the effect of information or adaptations passed on through learning. If you are really interested, there is a book called "The Outliers," by Malcolm Gladwell, that discusses the how family, culture and individual experience effect behavior and achievement. You might enjoy it. It's a very non-materialistic book (or to be more accurate, materialism isn't relevant in it, one way or the other.) He discusses something called the "10,000 hour rule," which states that it takes about 10,000 hours to become really great at something (whether it's playing the guitar, or becoming a computer expert) and sees this as being as important, if not more so, than innate or genetically determined ability.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/11/2013 18:47:11science that must be totally free in exploring reality , whatever the latter might turn out to be : no one and no ideology such as materialism can dictate to science what specific areas of reality science must explore: science as a relatively still a young adventurer that will break free from any dogmas chains such as those of materialism that have been restricting the exploring power and nature of science .Some scientists have explored your alleged "non-material" phenomena : decades of fruitless research by some ...http://www.csicop.org/si/show/pear_lab_closes_ending_decades_of_psychic_research/ If anyone wants to waste years of their life on investigating these alleged phenomena again they are free to do so : no-one is "restricting" research in this area.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/11/2013 18:47:11... lies , untruths ...What's the difference between "lies" and "untruths" ?
I was not talking about any psychic phenomena ...
Lies are untruths , and untruths are lies .
... dispelling dogmas, lies , untruths , half truths ...
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/11/2013 19:52:10Lies are untruths , and untruths are lies .Correct : "Lie" and "untruth" are synonyms , and you are guilty of tautology by listing them consecutively as if they were different things. [ Your repeated tautology is just an example of the lack of logic in your posts ].
Just focus on the core issues here , not on insignificant irrelevant details
... people of the north do have many words for ...snow ....
date=1385410608]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/11/2013 20:07:17Just focus on the core issues here , not on insignificant irrelevant details logic is not irrelevant in a reasoned argument: it is essential.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/11/2013 20:07:17... people of the north do have many words for ...snow .... Another example of you not engaging your critical faculties when reading stuff on t'internet ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow