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Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/12/2013 17:49:43Quote from: Supercryptid on 30/11/2013 23:27:01Why have you still not answered my question?That was not a question , just a quizAnd that makes it impossible to answer?
Quote from: Supercryptid on 30/11/2013 23:27:01Why have you still not answered my question?That was not a question , just a quiz
Why have you still not answered my question?
Quote from: Supercryptid on 01/12/2013 20:12:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/12/2013 17:49:43Quote from: Supercryptid on 30/11/2013 23:27:01Why have you still not answered my question?That was not a question , just a quizAnd that makes it impossible to answer?You don't know the difference between a serious question and a ...quiz ?
Can someone here try to tell me why physicists have been trying to come up with some sort of a "theory of everything " = theory of nothing ?, since science is not about definite holistic knowledge , just about approximate conjectures,just about temporary knowledge ... .
Use your imagination then haha , since "Imagination is more important than knowledge " ...Human imagination and creativity that have been behind many ...scientific discoveries,behind many great works of world literature , music , philosophy ...................
...Nothing is in fact absolutely certain in life but ...death .
Popper's epistemological writings regarding science as falsification,
social, cognitive , mathematical, psychological, emotional , existential, spiritual ,and other forms of human intelligence ) ,and hence neither human intelligence , nor human consciousness, the mind or imagination are "in the brain " .
Feynman said science involves:1. Making a guess (hypothesis) about the explanation for some real world observation.2. Calculating the implications of that guess.3. Testing to see whether those implications are borne out in the real world.Clearly the guess must have calculable implications that can be tested.Don has made a guess about consciousness. Unfortunately, by invoking the absence of material causation and the unknown, there are no known implications, and nothing testable. By framing it in terms of what it is not (i.e. consciousness is not of material origin) one might assume that it could be falsified by demonstrating the converse (i.e. that it is of material origin). However, the lack of positive definition of 'immaterial' means that no matter how much detailed evidence we collect that points to consciousness having a material origin, no matter how detailed the neural correlates of conscious behaviour, he can claim some non-material controlling influence, whether at the sub-atomic level, the biochemical level, the neural level, or the whole brain level, without fear of disproof. By reductio-ad-absurdum, it becomes clear that, in general, the immaterial hypothesis is no explanation at all, it is valueless as it adds nothing to our existing understanding and predicts nothing. It is the argument from ignorance combined with the argument from incredulity and follows the same logical progression as the god-of-the-gaps argument.It's reminiscent of a shaman who claims that a motor car is motivated by spirits; when told it is the internal combustion engine, he says that spirits make that work; when the mechanism is explained, he says spirits make the spark and ignite the fuel; when electricity and fuel combustion are explained, he says they're controlled by spirits; and so-on. Ultimately, a fully detailed explanation of the car is made, down to the quantum mechanical level, which the shaman insists is the work of spirits. What difference does the shaman's explanation make? what use is it?Consciousness, of course, is a subtler problem, because no matter how detailed our elucidation and understanding of the neural construction of consciousness, we still have the existential problem of subjective experience, the sense of self, the experience of qualia, and it would seem that no amount of objective explanation can explain the subjective. Looking at creatures like the octopus, which despite having a completely different nervous system from any vertebrate, shows strong evidence of a limited consciousness and self-awareness, my hunch is that we'll find that subjective experience is a feature of sufficiently complex flexible and adaptive goal-driven learning systems; i.e. if you are one, you will have some level of awareness and subjective experience. I may be wrong, there may be a different explanation, or the explanation may remain unknown, but what seems clear for now, is that the negatively defined 'immaterial' hypothesis asserted here by Don (without supporting argument or evidence), explains nothing and can explain nothing. It is a redundant distraction.
What difference does the shaman's explanation make? what use is it?
anyone who wants to take consciousness seriously.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/12/2013 20:49:09Quote from: Supercryptid on 01/12/2013 20:12:51Quote from: DonQuichotte on 01/12/2013 17:49:43Quote from: Supercryptid on 30/11/2013 23:27:01Why have you still not answered my question?That was not a question , just a quizAnd that makes it impossible to answer?You don't know the difference between a serious question and a ...quiz ? The fact that you keep twisting words to dodge the question is rather revealing. If quizzes are impossible to answer, then you'd better go correct the school system about their wrong ways. My options were "all", "some" and "none". That covers all the bases. What fourth option could exist?
Quoteanyone who wants to take consciousness seriously.I'd love to. But first, tell me what it is. I don't buy goods without a meaningful description.
But Feynman wasn't a philosopher, so what he said is considered to be a statement of the obvious (which is indeed the basis of physics) rather than a profound insight, which is the term assigned to Popper's garbled restatement. How, I wonder, does one become a philosopher? Seems to be the ultimate profession, with massive respect and no liability.
QuoteWhat difference does the shaman's explanation make? what use is it?It can inculcate fear and hatred among the stupid, and thus keep the shaman in business and support the killing industry.