[iko (OP)]

Here is George's reply about engineers and doctors,
the initial comparison/question of this topic:
information spread, despatches, communication of results
in aircraft and medical environments:

George seems too much worried to umbalance a natural condition, but I insist in saying that at the recommended doses it might be only a waste of money at worst.
BTW George, I am still waiting for your comments on the 'Shanghai report' and the engineers versus docs issue...where everything started from, last August.
When you get bored of vitamin intoxication issues, of course.

ikod

That was a long while back – had to search for it – did not even remember whether I had read it at the time or not (may have done, but just forgotten about it).

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=4987.0

It covers a number of issues, but if you want to start with the comparison between the engineering issue and the medical one.  I was going to list all of the differences between the medical profession and the engineering profession that might explain those apparent differences, but then realised that actually, in this context, there is not that much difference between the way the medical profession and the engineering profession react.  The difference rather arises from the nature of the two incidents you report.

The flight safety issue is a negative issue (the engineers are warning what not to do, they are not saying what should be done).  If you look at the usage of drugs today, it is much more difficult to introduce a new drug to the market than it is to have a drug withdrawn from the market as soon as there are any negative side effects found amongst the users of the drug (this is even true for those drugs that have many users who are totally happy with the drug – but fear of litigation from the minority will rapidly cause the drug to be removed from the market).

The aircraft industry is somewhat smaller than the medical industry, so things can happen more rapidly in the aircraft industry than in the medical industry, but it is still the case that getting a new component for an aircraft accepted takes much longer than getting one banned from use.

With regard to the Shanghai report itself (I have only seen the abstract, not the actual report), it provides a wide list of correlations, but as I have often pointed out, correlation does not equate to a causal link (I am not trying to argue against a link between vitamin D and leukaemia, it is merely that the report does not appear to be looking for specific causative agents, only to interesting correlations that would provide directions for future research).  It seems that the report found quite a spectrum of correlations, but the mere breadth of that spectrum would mean that any one single correlation would only be one amongst many.

Clearly, given your own particular interest, the report speaks to you in a particular way; but such a wide (and apparently shallow) report could easily give very different messages to somebody looking for another message to read from it.

Why did the authors not shout louder about the cod liver oil aspect of their report?  It seems to me they were more concerned with looking for environmental risk factors rather than protective factors, and in that context, a protective factor was merely a distraction (although it does seem strange why they even recording something that they were not interested in, unless they were simply trying to discount for it so that they effect did not distort their other results).

One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products.  This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.

[another_someone]

Thank you so much for your reply!
I think I'm going to copy into the topic,
for the next weeks 'viewers'

Thank you for copying the message here (I should probably have replied here originally, but since I was responding to a post there, I placed the reply there – so I shall now continue the thread here).

One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products.  This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.
George

There should be no major problem in the next few years.
Supplying leukemic patients won't do a great change in that market...I wouldn't talk of an expanding market.
Cod liver oil is too cheap and we need small doses: many people are busy trying to prove it is potentially toxic and packed with any pollutant you can imagine.
My doubts about synthetic compounds come from the fact that the so called 'evidence' is for the natural mixture and only an epidemiological one.
Different substances and their complex interactions may be involved.
I hope that some parent finds it through the web. We'll see.
Thanks to this forum.

I understand your concerns that a synthetic product will have to undergo substantial testing for both efficacy and safety, whereas the natural product already has a substantial history we can work with.  The only issue is to what extent will availability of the natural product remain.

Insofar as it is used merely as a treatment, then I would agree that usage will be slight.  I was not clear if you were looking to use it only for treatment, or also as a preventative measure.

[iko (OP)]

Insofar as it is used merely as a treatment, then I would agree that usage will be slight.  I was not clear if you were looking to use it only for treatment, or also as a preventative measure.
George

No preventive measure.
It would not make much sense: the weak unconfirmed evidence would not be enough to support a decision like that and, as you pointed out, maybe there wouldn't be enough cods in the Ocean!
For leukemic patients is different: no precise cause for their disease, just vague hypotheses and lots of the usual 'genetics'.  Of course there are strange genes when some cells seem to go mad, but in selected cases the cause could be 'outside', external, infectious (see the Helicobacter connection).
So there is no apparent cause, and treatment (highly toxic) is 'frozen' in specific protocols that had been empirically established in the last 20years and do work in more than half of the patients (children, for adults it is much tougher).
In this context cod liver oil should be recommended.
Even if you found that kids having orange juice in the morning have a reduced risk of leukemia, and all your data were statistically correct, a dispatch should be immediately sent to all the people concerned, parents, families, even doctors (don't tell them that there is no controlled trial available!). It is a sort of emergency, almost one third of patients have a relapse in the crucial 2-5 years after diagnosis. A relapsed leukemia does NOT respond to further standard treatments, so a more toxic intervention is required.
In relapsed lymphoblastic leukemia you may have a resistant disease even after radiation therapy plus bone marrow transplantation in 50% of patients.
In conclusion, anything simple, nontoxic and inexpensive, that is even only suspected to help a minority of children, should be quite welcome in this field.

I was quite scared eight years ago, when our second son started chemo and I found the 1988 report.
I knew of a vague 'miracle' story with cod liver oil in my family (grandpa) and all the good things that vitamins do.  Nevertheless that wasn't enough to feel safe: antivitamins like antifolic drugs (methotrexate) are the mainstay of these protocols, it was not a joke.
We began with 1 (one!) capsule a day together with all the other pills.  It seemed just nothing...still they were over 700caps in 2 years!.  I was afraid to unbalance a therapy, just like you pointed out here above, mentioning the unpredictable effects of an excess of vitamins in the body.
Finally, after maintenance treatment stop (24months) 2-4caps were just fine.  In the meantime I had got in touch with T.Timonen from Finland, he had missed the Chinese report; the vitamin D hypothesis was quite fascinating, and so I took more courage.  In 2005 the Egyptian study, the only one about vitD3 abnormally low levels in leukemia (diagnosis, 3mts, 12mts) gave me the certainty that this is a neglected area of investigation.
I actually found the Mansoura report in 2006 (talking about relaxation!) and it shocked me.
It was just time to move and do something.  Then I discovered this forum and instantly felt much better, knowing that now a parent like me may have instant access to this kind of information.
I shall work on key words and test it with different search engines: I can imagine what parents look for after a diagnosis of childhood leukemia.  Why? They don't understand why all this is happening to them, if it's their fault or not.  There is no known cause and just a treatment schedule to follow.  That's it.  So much for Science.
 
Our 'little boy' is a young healthy adult right now, grew up 7-8cm taller than his older brother, swims like a fish (!!), he does not look like a 'survivor' at all.   His 'path' (call it treatment schedule/protocol) has been almost a picnic compared with what other kids have to go through.  Nurses and doctors were very nice and professional, may be 'cod' has been good for him.  I hope that everyday 'cod' is helping in mitigating the invisible damage left by chemotherapy.
We'll never know.

ikod 


...uhm, 8 months, 124 replies, most of them auto-replies.
I think this topic is really coming to an end!

[iko (OP)]

Yes, you are corny enough. I thought you may be drinking fermented cod liver oil.
Zoey

Where the hell is Zoey?
This CLO-fanatics-club-jazz-band needs her sense of humour!

We're almost reaching the 6000 viewers!
I do not exactly know what it means: they seem lots and lots to me.
But they might open this topic and close it in seconds (Woooah! cancer in children!) or go through hundreds of posts and meditate and discuss it with friends.
Who knows.
I'm pretty sure that the Shanghai report had fewer readers in 1988, almost twenty years ago.

ikod

    
http://www.sapere.it/tc/img/scuola/scuola_medioevo/amanue.jpg
http://www.fare-web.it/cms/images/53.jpg

Yes, we are almost making 6000viewers.
Pinched between "Thunderclap headache during orgasm"
with 9909 and "The female orgasm" with 4645 viewers...
Isn't this amazing?
We are gonna make it for sure.

ikodgasm

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r133/lindsayjemerson/pingouin.gif

[Zoey]

 My main regret is not having the knowledge to upload pictures. Maybe  you should have taken up painting.

It is definitely time to take all this jazz about cod liver oil seriously, by teaspoonful, and earful:Listen to Cod Liver Oil and Orange Juice by Hamish Imlach for free on Rhapsody.
http://play.rhapsody.com/album/thetransatlanticstory/codliveroilandorangejuice
 And from Folk Music Tradition:
Cod Liver Oil
Lyrics:

I'm a young married man that is tired of life
Ten years I've been wed to a miserable wife
She does nothing all day but sit down and cry
And prays up to Heaven that soon she will die

Chorus:

Doctor, o doctor, o dear Doctor John
Your cod liver oil is so pure and so strong
I'm afraid of me life, I'll go down in the soil
If me wife keeps on drinking your cod liver oil

Well a friend of my own came to see me one day
He told my darlin' was pining away
He afterwards told me that she would get strong
If only I'd get a bottle from dear Doctor John

Chorus

It was then that I purchased a bottle to try
The way that she drank it you'd think she would die
I bought her another it vanished the same
O me wife she's got cod liver oil on the brain

Chorus

That me wife loves cod liver there isn't a doubt
And a few thousand gallons has made her quite stout
And now that she's stout it's made her quite strong
And now I'm jealous of dear Doctor John

Chorus

My house it resembles a medicine shop
It's covered with bottles from bottom to top
But then in the mornin' the kettle do boil
O you're sure it's singin' of cod liver oil

Chorus

Numerous Folk songs about the mighty cod that have been recorded. A partial list here:http://www.ibiblio.org/keefer/c08.htm

  I am taking the words and musical scores to several of the major cod liver oil researchers. That should bring more participants to this discussion.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

 

http://funnypics.free.fr/explorer/public/gifs/animation.gif

My main regret is not having the knowledge to upload pictures. Maybe  you should have taken up painting.

It is definitely time to take all this jazz about cod liver oil seriously, by teaspoonful, and earful:Listen to Cod Liver Oil and Orange Juice by Hamish Imlach for free on Rhapsody.

Welcome back Zoey,
uploading pictures is the easiest thing even for docs:
when you are editing your text and want to stick a pic,
just click on the image symbol. Then go to your nice
image wherever it is, click on it (right button of the
rat mouse) select Properties and copy the address
(URL) that should look familiar: http:// such and such.
Go back to the image symbol that should look like this:
[ img ][ /img ].  Then click in the middle of the two imgs
then right button and Paste...voilà.
When you save your text you should see your image ok,
otherwise edit again and see where the trouble is.
It may take ages, but if you are fishing readers for
your topics, it's a nice way to spend your free time...
It is quite an easy game as you see, good for kids up to
8-11yrs...who cares, I have great fun cutting & pasting.
I hope there is no major copyright problem, but if you
take some pics available for free from the web and
stick them into a forum...It should be all right.
Take care

ikod

[iko (OP)]

In this context cod liver oil should be recommended.
Even if you found that kids having orange juice in the morning have a reduced risk of leukemia, and all your data were statistically correct, a dispatch should be immediately sent to all the people concerned, parents, families, even doctors (don't tell them that there is no controlled trial available!). It is a sort of emergency, almost one third of patients have a relapse in the crucial 2-5 years after diagnosis. A relapsed leukemia does NOT respond to further standard treatments, so a more toxic intervention is required.
In relapsed lymphoblastic leukemia you may have a resistant disease even after radiation therapy plus bone marrow transplantation in 50% of patients.
In conclusion, anything simple, nontoxic and inexpensive, that is even only suspected to help a minority of children, should be quite welcome in this field.
iko

Yes, a self-citation,
not to show off, but to add bits and pieces that come to my mind and I forgot to put in the puzzle.
First sign of cod-dementia? Maybe.  Actually this topic is a sort of notebook for me: it might help in a final edition of a proper article.
I forgot to say that -in my personal opinion- our medicine could easily miss, in particular circumstances of 'mysterious diseases', pharmacological effects that come after weeks or months of treatment.
This could be the case of vitamin D3 (see the asylum seekers abstract from Switzerland, previous page) or the regression of MALTomas after Helicobacter pylori eradication.  Some 'fastidious' pathogens take ages to be eradicated (e.g. whipple disease).

When a substance takes time to work and we do not have a test to prove that something is positively changing, and/or we do not have a clue about the origin of a disease, everything gets more and more difficult.

I also forgot to mention (but many of us know it) that the treatment for peptic ulcer in the '60-'70s was surgical, half of the stomach (where ulcers develop) had to be removed. Cimetidine came in 1975 and for surgical routine in any hospital of the world was a real earthquake: ulcers were healing on cimetidine but recurred after stopping treatment.
No stomach transplant was performed in these patients (fortunately) and now we know that ulcers would obviously have recurred in the grafted organ.
Helicobacter pylori eradication successfully solves the problem in the vast majority of patients.
Finally in the late '70s fiberoptics became available even for gastroenterologists (from aerospace technology), making everything simpler for diagnosis and therapy.
When you really 'see' what is happening, everything becomes easier.

   

http://img.search.com/2/2f/Stomach2.gif
http://thenightwriterblog.powerblogs.com/files/helicobacter.jpg

Diagram of the stomach, showing the different regions.
A gastrectomy is a partial or full surgical removal of the stomach.

The first successful gastrectomy was performed by Theodor Billroth in 1881 for cancer of the stomach. Gastrectomies are performed to treat cancer, severe cases of peptic ulcer disease, and perforations of the stomach wall. This procedure is becoming less common as peptic ulcers are now often treated with antibiotics for Helicobacter pylori or by endoscopy.

In severe duodenal ulcers it may be necessary to remove the lower portion of the stomach called the pylorus and the upper portion of the small intestine called the duodenum. If there is a sufficient portion of the upper duodenum remaining a Billroth I procedure is performed, where the remaining portion of the stomach is reattached to the duodenum before the bile duct and the duct of the pancreas. If the stomach cannot be reattached to the duodenum a Billroth II is performed, where the remaining portion of the duodenum is sealed off, a hole is cut into the next section of the small intestine called the jejunum and the stomach is reattached at this hole. As the pylorus is used to grind food and slowly release the food into the small intestine, removal of the pylorus can cause food to move into the small intestine faster than normal, leading to gastric dumping syndrome.
In the past a gastrectomy for peptic ulcer disease was often accompanied by a vagotomy, where the vagus nerve is cut to reduce acid production in the stomach. Nowadays, this problem is managed with proton pump inhibitors.

from:  http://www.search.com/reference/Gastrectomy 

[dqfry]

I'm new to the forum and topic. My 3-y-old son was Dx last month (ALL-Pre-B, Low Risk with TEL-AML1 translocation) Lots of things I want to share and ask, but manly, my son has been taking cod liver oil (Carlson's Lab.) since 6-months-old. We follow a very healthy and mostly organic diet. Nos that he has been diagnosed with ALL, I started doubting the power of nutrition and organic products (as well as cod liver oil) Nonetheless, I still give him CLO with his smoothies and to my 10-months-old daughter with her solids. Hopefully, all the good "stuff" will help him somehow through his treatment. Is there any online site I can buy the purest and best CLO without the adding flavor of Carlson's?

[Zoey]

 Welcome to this discussion! I cannot recommend any particular brand or company for the COL. However, a search on Google will turn up links to online sources for COL. I did a search on "vitamins" "online" "pure cod liver oil." I usually get mine at GNC or the local health food store. You shouldn't have a problem finding it.
    Have you ever read anything by the chemist, Roger Williams? { http://bioinst.cm.utexas.edu/williams/ }He is credited with making some of the most significant discoveries about nutrition over the last century. In his research he came to see that in all illness there is change in nutritional status on a cellular level. But this is more complicated than just having deficiencies. The doubt you feel about the role of nutrition may be a catalyst for you to put your understanding in a different perspective.
  While our level of health can make us less likely to get various illnesses, it won't make us immune to every disease. It just reduces our risks of getting some disorder or another.  Some of the more recent studies on the role of vitamin A in disease  highlights this point; childen with good levels of vitamin A are less likely to get measles when exposed to it. However, if they do get measles, the odds are good that they will not get seriously ill and die or go blind [measles is a very common cause of childhood blindness].
  I logged on with a question for Iko on this topic tonight. I'd like to know what changes are taking place on a cellular level when a child develops ALL?  This information may give some insight on how to best proceed in terms of diet and nutrition when ALL develops. Certainly, your son's nutrition is going to be important to his ability to recover from ALL and do as well as possible with his treatment.  Are you doing a lot of research on diet and ALL? The dietician at the hospital may have information for you too. I'll do more checking on the internet.
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

Hi dqfry,

welcome to this topic. Your story gives us the confirmation that cod liver oil in childhood leukemia could only give a 'protective' effect, certainly not total immunity.  The results in the 1988 Chinese report were showing exactly this.
Your son should have a very good prognosis with standard treatment (less aggressive than in other types) for age and type of ALL...and he is taking 'cod' already!
Chances should be over 80% for your little boy and I wish you find splendid dedicated nurses and doctors like we did in 1999.  I think you are not exactly in the middle, but in a good point of this path: it will go downhill in a short while.
Your two little devils will keep you so busy that in the next few years the memory of these days will only be like a bad dream.  You started the same path we did several years ago and found this topic on the way: how did you manage to reach us? I'd like to know some details of your search.
Let's keep in touch.

ikod

P.S.  Sorry, but I cannot help in finding a particular type of cod liver oil.
Brands with reported quality controls are obviously recommended.

[dqfry]

I’ve met with a register dietitian at the hospital, but unfortunately the meeting was very frustrating. Therefore, I met with a local nutritionist that emphasized the importance of CLO and Probiotics among other things.  We discuss cellular repair through nutrition and how certain micronutrients deficiency can cause DNA damage associated with leukemia. I’ll continue working with her and hoping we’re making the right choices.

On a side note, following is something open for discussion. I’m really interested to hear iko’s input on this:

Full term baby boy born on February 17, 2004 at 8 pounds 7 ounces. Enlarged lymph node on left side of neck and left groin noticed 2 months after birth.  Pediatrician didn’t show concern. Identified mild torticollis at 3 months followed by physical therapy until he was 1-year-old. Significant lymph node enlargement (groin and neck left side only) after MMR vaccine at 12-months-old. Presence of petechiae in the lower abdomen and legs. Complete CBC didn’t show abnormalities. Pediatrician consider Lymphs and petechiae a reaction caused by MMR vaccine. Symptoms never desapeared completely. New petechiae sites appeared and lymph nodes didn’t go back to normal size (when compared to nodes on the right side). No colds or infections until December 1006 (2-years-old) diagnosed with a simple ear infection.  Symptoms subsided after 10 days in Amoxicillin. Minor upper respiratory infections follow, predictable due to attendance to Pre School. Fever and persistant cough that didn’t respond to antibiotics in January 2007. Diagnosed with Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia Pre-B February 2007.

Considering the events and the fact that my son has been taking CLO on and off since he was 6-months-old, is it possible that the first set of symptoms (enlarged lymph nodes plus petechiae at 12-months) was a pre-leukemia event or even the presence of leukemia that resolved itself?

Mel Greaves’s hypothesis: “the final hit may be infectious”
How does that relate to non-isolated relapses? Considering that the genetic pre disposition was already present and that chemotherapy doesn’t fix DNA/gene lesion the same line of events/infection(s) has to take place again for a relapse?   Or, non-isolated relapses are a mere product of clones or residual leukemic cells?

Cheers

DQ

[iko (OP)]

I’ve met with a register dietitian at the hospital, but unfortunately the meeting was very frustrating. Therefore, I met with a local nutritionist that emphasized the importance of CLO and Probiotics among other things.  We discuss cellular repair through nutrition and how certain micronutrients deficiency can cause DNA damage associated with leukemia. I’ll continue working with her and hoping we’re making the right choices.

I think you are doing fine, concentrating in the few things we can work on as parents.  Diet is obviously an important one.  You should trust your doctors 100% to relax a bit on the other issues that could be impossible to manage all on our own. Parents must take care of important things like CVC maintenance, to cite one.

Considering the events and the fact that my son has been taking CLO on and off since he was 6-months-old, is it possible that the first set of symptoms (enlarged lymph nodes plus petechiae at 12-months) was a pre-leukemia event or even the presence of leukemia that resolved itself?

Mel Greaves’s hypothesis: “the final hit may be infectious”
How does that relate to non-isolated relapses? Considering that the genetic pre disposition was already present and that chemotherapy doesn’t fix DNA/gene lesion the same line of events/infection(s) has to take place again for a relapse?   Or, non-isolated relapses are a mere product of clones or residual leukemic cells?

Here I can offer a personal opinion only. It is possible that those signs were predicting a leukemia, but you find them quite commonly in infants that don't develop ALL. So many times a similar condition may reverse by itself.

Difficult to answer your second question.  I'll tell you what I know (and it's not much).
A genetic predisposition might be switched on by an external factor, but steroid treatment and all the rest is hitting hard on the expanded clone that disappears quite quickly.  It should be a sort of immunological reset that probably works for life, considering the results observed in years.
Children of 2-4 years have the top expansion of lymphoid cells that prepare their immune system to fight viruses and bacteria.  So a clone escaping control is more common at this age.  Be prepared to accept the idea that the bad clone is already off and will never come back, and your kids will be as clever as George (another_someone, moderator in this forum, who was given 'cod' as a child).  May be more!   []
Take care

ikod

[Zoey]

Iko,
  What are some resources, with links, for folks on nutrition considerations during treatment for ALL?
Zoey

[iko (OP)]

Hi Zoey,

you seem to do fine with cut&paste pictures!

I thought you read this in page 2 of this topic.
I left it intentionally there 'unexpanded' to avoid an anti-cod 'generalizing effect'.
The discussion about diet and cancer would lead us too far away from the subject and the aim of this topic.
It could be the title of a new topic and I wouldn't be in the number.
I already have my troubles to be 'scientifically correct' here and in the cod liver oil topic!
Too many nutrients have been proposed in the last few years, but their efficacy seems still unsubstantiated in most of the cases, and practical demonstrations too vague or totally absent.
It is NOT the purpose of this topic.
We have to stick to 'cod' and a vague 1988 article, especially now that dqfry joined us.
She gave us in a few words a clear and dramatic picture of the limits of this issue.


Cod liver oil used during standard treatment of leukemia, probably could just 'help' leukemic patients, perhaps counteracting a vitamin D3 deficiency that still has to be confirmed.
This positive effect has to be demonstrated in practice, and only for lack of toxicity and costs this use could be recommended before improbable officially conducted clinical trials.
We do not have detailed data from the Shanghai report as I told you: there were 'buried' in 5" diskettes so it is impossible to find out whether the 'protective' effect had been found lower or what in toddlers compared to growning-up 8-12yrs children (this was one of my questions to Dr. Shu in 1999).

Hi Zoey,
we're making an hypertopic here...
It's nice to quit my monologue for a change!

Also, do you think a child's level of vitamins A and D would affect the tendency to develop leukemia? If so, would children living in areas where deficiency in these nutrients are common might have a higher incidence of developing the disease?
Getting back onto the subject of treatment, what other nutritional factors do you think would work along with cod liver oil to overcome the negative effects of treatment?
Zoey

If we consider a multifactorial etiology in a fortunately rare disease, vitamin D and A+omega-3 may play a minor role together with all the rest.  Other factors interacting make quite difficult to catch a significant difference.

In underdeveloped countries leukemias are less represented compared to lymphomas. Urban (and wealthy?) people seem to be more exposed.
We may expect that a malnourished child, affected by multiple deficiencies could die from infection way before developing a leukemia (Hypothesis!).
If you search for a connection with lower vitamin D levels...well in USA coloured children have a slightly higher incidence of this disease.  This is just speculating...vitamin D levels should be tested more extensively after the Mansoura study in Egypt.
In my opinion, this would be the only way to estabilish a connection.

Other nutritional factors -mainly antioxidants- may help to overcome the negative effects of treatment.

It was summer then, and we had tons of squeezed icy lemon juice and fresh garlic bread from time to time (pure empirism)...

There are some studies about eating more healthy food and avoiding some toxic effect...

Low antioxidant vitamin intakes are associated with increases in adverse effects of chemotherapy in children witn acute lymphoblastic leukemia

...Chemotherapy leads to an increase in reactive oxygen species, which stresses the antioxidant defense system. Children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia rarely are overtly malnourished, which makes this population ideal for an investigation of the relations between dietary antioxidant consumption, plasma antioxidant concentrations, and chemotherapy-induced toxicity.
...a 6-mo observational study of 103 children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Plasma micronutrient concentrations, dietary intakes, and incidence of side effects of chemotherapy were ascertained at diagnosis and after 3 and 6 mo of therapy...

Conclusion: A large percentage of children undergoing treatment for acute lymphoblastic leukemia have inadequate intakes of antioxidants and vitamin A. Lower intakes of antioxidants are associated with increases in the adverse side effects of chemotherapy
Kennedy D et al.     Am J Clin Nutr 2004;79:1029-36.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/6/1029

 

Antioxidant-Rich Diet Helps Fight Leukemia

As if undergoing chemotherapy isn't trying enough, kids with the most common form of childhood leukemia receiving this treatment may also experience a significant reduction in their antioxidant and micronutrient levels. This decrease could lead to severe side effects from the chemotherapy. However, there may be a ray of hope amidst this dark cloud.  According to a study, children could improve antioxidant and micronutrient levels and prevent some of the adverse side effects of chemotherapy by simply incorporating more fruits and vegetables into their diets.  The study, prompted by parental concern regarding children's safety in taking antioxidant supplements (such supplements might affect the high cure rate experienced with leukemia), involved more than 100 recently diagnosed children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL). The children had their antioxidant levels, antioxidant capacity and oxidative damage measured during their first six months of chemotherapy treatment.

Findings

Blood levels of vitamin E decreased over time, while vitamin A and total carotenoids increased
Vitamin C and oxidative damage increased within the first few months and declined by the sixth month.
Antioxidant levels were associated with side effects of the treatment; antioxidant capacity decreased throughout the course of the study
Children with higher concentrations of vitamins A, E and total carotenoids experienced fewer poor outcomes (such as infections and toxicity)
Based on the findings, researchers emphasized the importance of eating more fruits and vegetables -- which may provide a more balanced mix of antioxidants -- in addition to working with a nutritionist to improve the child's diet.
Forbes.com December 27, 2004.
Cancerpage.com December 27, 2004

Dr. Mercola's Comment:
It is no surprise that kids can better withstand the toll of chemotherapy by eating a diet full of antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables. However, one needs to be VERY careful about using any product, even natural ones, as the ONLY approach to treating a complex illness like cancer, as it is likely to be counterproductive. For this reason, I have pulled together a list of alternatives to fight cancer.
Healthy Alternatives to Fight Cancer
1. Avoid sugar, as it is the primary fuel for most cancers.
Eating too much sugar and too many grains -- which are converted to sugar in the body -- will cause your blood sugar levels to rise. If your blood sugar levels remain elevated, even mildly, over a period of time, your risk of developing cancer increases.
Since I am fully aware that many people struggle with this sugar/grain restriction, I highly recommend using the energy psychology tool Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) to successfully treat stresses, including food cravings such as those related to sugar and grains.

2. Optimize your vitamin D levels, as it is probably the single most important vitamin in preventing and treating cancers.

The safest way to maintain healthy vitamin D levels is through sun exposure, but many of us are not able to do that in the winter, and some of us also stay indoors in the summer. For those that don't obtain enough sun exposure, taking a high-quality cod liver oil is a reasonable alternative. Taking a high-quality cod liver oil is more important than any supplement you can take because it is not a supplement at all -- it is an essential food...

NOTE: It important to have your vitamin D levels checked, as it is possible to overdose on vitamin D.

Sunlight, which causes us to produce vitamin D, can also help lower the risk of many cancers. Sunlight might actually be helpful in treating cancers directly through some, as yet, unidentified mechanism. One of my favorite books from last year, The Healing Sun Tom place link, provides some further details about this approach.
3. Make sure you exercise, as this will help lower your insulin levels.
There is no shortage of literature documenting the major benefits exercise has in lowering the risk of cancer and improving cancer once it is diagnosed. One of the major ways exercise works is by reducing insulin levels. It is quite clear that elevated insulin levels are associated with an increased risk of cancer.
When using exercise as a drug it will be important to have a goal of at least one hour per day, every day if you have high insulin levels or signs of them, such as:
High blood pressure
High cholesterol
Overweight
Diabetes
Obviously, depending on one's current condition, one needs to work slowly up to this level. My experience is that weight-bearing exercises, such as walking, jogging, running and elliptical machines, are better than cycling and swimming. If you are already in shape then you can limit your workouts to 45 minutes three or four times per week. However, if you are already in shape; then it is likely you won't have cancer, as many studies show that people who exercise have far less cancer rates...
Dr. Joseph Mercola

http://www.mercola.com/2005/jan/12/antioxidant_leukemia.htm

...perhaps even my Granny knew that...
iko

Idea.
While we look at the future of dqfry's child getting better and better thanks to the present 'gold standard' therapy that is probably close to 90% of success all over the world (he is on a LOW-risk treatment schedule, sorry to be pessimistic and always refer to 'my' medium-risk experience), and we hopefully watch his mother getting out of a nightmare mostly bound to a word:  leukemia.
It reminds me what I told my little boy in the first days of treatment: you don't have a 'real' leukemia, it should not be called like that anymore, because this type is so mild that they're going to cure it completely.
My wife and I kept bad feelings and shaking legs for ourselves.

While some other parents are eventually finding this information and consider giving 'cod' to their sick children.

Let's turn backwards again for a while.
The 'ancient' paper about cod liver oil you found weeks ago should not be the only one.
More 'vintage' information might help us a lot now.

ikod


...let's go on from here, 4 example:

Iko,
  Go here for some history of how cod liver oil has been used in medicine for the last 150 years.
Zoey
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/kings/gadus_oleu.html

[paul.fr]

Zoey,

i can't find the topic about the plague! so i thought i would post this here, somewhere i knew you would read it.

Sorry Iko if this is not relevant to the subject

Zoey, last night i was reading some old copies of New Scientist (2004) and found some info that you may be interested in, about Nicholas Culpeper

here are a few links you may find interesting:

http://www.mayflowerfamilies.com/enquirer/nicholas_culpeper.htm
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/culpeper/culpeper.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Culpeper

Paul

[iko (OP)]

Hi Paul,

I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-cares-of annihilating crisis a while ago!
She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!
Naughty Zoey  []

ikod

[paul.fr]

Hi Paul,

I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-caresof annihilating crisis a while ago!
She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!
Naughty Zoey  []

ikod

ah, that explains it. the topic was still rather interesting though. any way sorry for the little hijack, Iko.

[iko (OP)]

Hi Paul,

I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-cares-of annihilating crisis a while ago!
She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!
Naughty Zoey  []

ikod

ah, that explains it. the topic was still rather interesting though. any way sorry for the little hijack, Iko.

No problem Paul,

there is plenty of space left in this hyperspecific topic.
To be honest, leukemia could be one of the mysterious 'plagues' left in overdeveloped countries!
Zoey's late topic (what a shame to kill a newborn topic!)
was 100% medicine and nutrition, so be our guest, please. [^]

ikod

P.S :
me checked your links.
How fascinating this Nicky Culpeper (1616-1654)...just few minutes ago (approx. 2.1x10E8)!
Garlic and Rosemary were partiiccccularrrly appreciated by meiko!

[iko (OP)]

Playing like dumb babies with Neil and Karen is not that bad...
from General Science: A-Z of Anything/Anyone...

Carnosic acid

   
http://www.axxora.com/files/formula/270-264.gif
http://www.gardenguides.com/seedcatalog/packets/rosemary.jpg
http://www.mdidea.com/products/herbextract/rosemary/rosemary_extract_carnosic_acid01Compress.jpg

Cooperative antitumor effects of vitamin D3 derivatives
and rosemary preparations in a mouse model of myeloid leukemia.

Sharabani H, Izumchenko E, Wang Q, Kreinin R, Steiner M, Barvish Z, Kafka M, Sharoni Y, Levy J, Uskokovic M, Studzinski GP, Danilenko M.
Department of Clinical Biochemistry, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.

1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (1,25D(3)) is a powerful differentiation agent, which has potential for treatment of myeloid leukemias and other types of cancer, but the calcemia produced by pharmacologically active doses precludes the use of this agent in the clinic. We have shown that carnosic acid, the major rosemary polyphenol, enhances the differentiating and antiproliferative effects of low concentrations of 1,25D(3) in human myeloid leukemia cell lines (HL60, U937). Here we translated these findings to in vivo conditions using a syngeneic mouse leukemia tumor model. To this end, we first demonstrated that as in HL60 cells, differentiation of WEHI-3B D(-) murine myelomonocytic leukemia cells induced by 1 nM 1,25D(3) or its low-calcemic analog, 1,25-dihydroxy-16-ene-5,6-trans-cholecalciferol (Ro25-4020), can be synergistically potentiated by carnosic acid (10 microM) or the carnosic acid-rich ethanolic extract of rosemary leaves. This effect was accompanied by cell cycle arrest in G0 + G1 phase and a marked inhibition of cell growth. In the in vivo studies, i.p. injections of 2 microg Ro25-4020 in Balb/c mice bearing WEHI-3B D(-) tumors produced a significant delay in tumor appearance and reduction in tumor size, without significant toxicity. Another analog, 1,25-dihydroxy-16,23Z-diene-20-epi-26,27-hexafluoro-19-nor-cholecalciferol (Ro26-3884) administered at the same dose was less effective than Ro25-4020 and profoundly toxic. Importantly, combined treatment with 1% dry rosemary extract (mixed with food) and 1 microg Ro25-4020 resulted in a strong cooperative antitumor effect, without inducing hypercalcemia. These results indicate for the first time that a plant polyphenolic preparation and a vitamin D derivative can cooperate not only in inducing leukemia cell differentiation in vitro, but also in the antileukemic activity in vivo. These data may suggest novel protocols for chemoprevention or differentiation therapy of myeloid leukemia. Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Int J Cancer. 2006 Jun 15;118(12):3012-21.

[Zoey]

Excuse me Iko,
 I too, digress for a moment.
Paul,
  Thanks for the links. I nixed the topic as no one was addressing the question, how the herbs and spices used medicinally in that time worked as antibiotics so I could better explain it to readers when writing an article on the subject.
   The difficulty and misunderstanding we encountered there is all too common. As the chemist, Roger Williams, wrote, "When science becomes doctrine, it ceases to be science."
  What I started as a science topic was immediately met with religous doctrine, attacking beliefs, positions, I did not hold. Any opportunities to discuss the subject with open mind were lost at the outset. The science and prospects of discovering anything new were pre-empted by the "peer pressure" to restrict my perceptions and statements to those fitting their doctrines.




 Ironically, my own searching found much evidence to suggest that crowding and filth held a greater influence on the spread of the plague than did any medicines-not so different than today, is it?
  When a subject threatens the listener's world view, especially that of a fundamentalist, it will be rejected, and fundamentalists do shoot the messengers. The need is very great for some to have reality limited to finite terms and possibilities.  Untold numbers of physicians, and scientists, still hold the view that disease is caused by " foreign invaders" and cannot be a "natural" process. A current example is herpes, varieties of which infect much of the world's population. In order for the herpes virus to replicate, it requires an increased supply of the amino acid arginine in relation to another amino acid, lysine. Unless this need is met the virus cannot thrive in its host.

"Chemotherapy. 1981;27(3):209-13. Links
Relation of arginine-lysine antagonism to herpes simplex growth in tissue culture.Griffith RS, DeLong DC, Nelson JD.
In the studies conducted, arginine deficiency suppressed herpes simplex virus replication in tissue culture. Lysine, an analog of arginine, as an antimetabolite, antagonized the viral growth-promoting action of arginine. The in vitro data may be the basis for the observation that patients prone to herpetic lesions and other related viral infections, particularly during periods of stress, should abstain from arginine excess and may also require supplemental lysine in their diet.

PMID: 6262023 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"


   Peer pressure limiting discussions is true with Iko's CLO for leukaemia prevention; those who do not acknowledge the role of nutrition in the development of disease, will reject the possible role of CLO as a preventive because it violates the underlying assumptions about how leukaemia develops.
   
  A very good example of this is the opposition the scientist Alfred Sommer met in his work on the relationship between vitamin A deficiency, childhood blindness, and mortality. He saw a decade of research ignored before some of his colleagues could accept that vitamin A deficiency leads impaired immune function in healthy as well as malnourished children, as well as blindness. He writes eloquently of his experience:


[Top of Report] - [Top of Section] - [Next Page] - [Previous Page]

A bridge too near
By Alfred Sommer
Dr. Alfred Sommer is Professor and Dean at the School of Hygiene and Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. He has been in the forefront of research into vitamin A deficiency for almost 20 years, and led the two major Indonesian studies described in this article.

For almost a decade, medical science ignored or rejected the evidence that vitamin A could reduce child deaths by between a quarter and a third in many countries of the developing world.

Today, the scepticism of the 1980s has been swept away by an avalanche of data. And as the tables on the following pages show, most nations are now moving to make this most cost-effective of all health interventions available to their children.

If this effort succeeds, then we can expect to bring about a fall in child deaths of somewhere between 1 million and 3 million per annum.

Discovered in 1913, vitamin A has taken almost a century to come into its own. It has long been known that the lack of this particular vitamin could cause stunting, infection, and blindness in animals. But it was 1974 before the first report was published (by WHO) on vitamin A deficiency as a major cause of blindness among the children of the developing world.

Missing the point

In that same year, a research project was launched in Indonesia to find out more about vitamin A deficiency, and particularly about what levels of deficiency were associated with xerophthalmia (the inflammation and drying of the eye that can result in permanent blindness). Over a period of a year and a half, 4,000 children were examined at three-month intervals.

By 1981 much useful information had been gleaned. But in looking only for what we expected to see, we had missed what the data itself had revealed. Unlooked-for and unseen amid the mass of figures was a much more dramatic message.

One December evening almost a year later, while a particular set of figures was being cross-tabulated, it became apparent that many xerophthalmic children were missing from later cross-tabulations. Running the computer analysis in the reverse direction revealed what the data had been waiting to tell us all along: children with even mild xerophthalmia were dying at a far greater rate.

Any suggestion that the higher death rate was caused by malnutrition, of which the lack of vitamin A was merely a symptom, was quickly dispelled. Malnutrition clearly increases the risk of child death, but so does vitamin A deficiency - even among adequately nourished children. In fact the Indonesian study showed that malnourished children with adequate vitamin A were less likely to die than well-nourished children who were deficient in vitamin A.

Preliminary calculations, soon to be revised upwards, showed that if xerophthalmia could be prevented, then the death rate among children aged one to six would fall by approximately 20%. Analysis also showed that the risk of death was directly related to the degree of deficiency.

To test these extraordinary conclusions, a second Indonesian study was launched. This time, vitamin A capsules were given every six months to approximately 20,000 young children in 450 randomly chosen villages. The result was a one-third reduction in death rates, compared with villages where there had been no intervention.

These findings were published in The Lancet and other medical journals. The response was the long silence of disbelief.

With its vision fixed on the high-tech and high-cost frontiers of modern medical care, the medical and research establishment found it difficult to accept that something as simple and cheap as a 2-cent capsule of vitamin A could represent such a break-through for human life and health. Perhaps in some quarters, also, there was an innate and ideological dislike of `magic bullet' solutions to health problems which do not directly address the underlying problems of poverty.

Whatever the reason, a discovery that seemed to promise so much had caused barely a ripple on the surface of medical interest.

It was at this point that a wise colleague pointed out that this was the normal first reaction to any unexpected research finding. The next stage, he advised, was to "bury them in data."

Knowing that measles often leads to vitamin A loss, we had begun to wonder if Africa's high death rates from measles might also be connected with vitamin A deficiency. To test this, children hospitalized with measles in Tanzania were given vitamin A capsules. The measles death rate fell by half. It was at this point that we discovered, to our astonishment, that a similar experiment had been conducted 50 years earlier in a London hospital - with the same results: medicine too has doors it did not enter, paths it did not take.

WHO and UNICEF now acted quickly to make vitamin A supplementation a routine part of measles treatment. More broadly, the elimination of the deficiency became one of the goals adopted by the World Summit for Children held at UNICEF's instigation in the fall of 1990. The progress being made towards that goal is shown in the following tables.

By 1992, the results were in from several large, community-based investigations into vitamin A deficiency. Ghana, India, Indonesia, and Nepal all yielded results in line with the one-third reduction in mortality rates revealed by the original research in Indonesia.

At this point, the medical community accepted our conclusions as unanimously as it had dismissed them a decade earlier. A colleague who had earlier written a leader in The New England Journal of Medicine titled `Too good to be true', now published a paper under the heading `Too good not to be true'.

With the scientific community in full agreement, ministries of health across the world have now given the green light to vitamin A supplementation. Unfortunately, official recommendations usually stress vitamin A supplementation only where there is evidence of severe deficiency, whereas the evidence suggests that supplementation can significantly reduce mortality even among populations with mild vitamin A deficiency. Further studies are now needed to quantify this effect.

Three ways

Increasing vitamin A intake can be achieved by three main methods - improving diets, fortifying common foods, and distributing vitamin A capsules.

The politically correct method is dietary improvement through the addition of green leafy vegetables or carrots. Of course diets should be improved. But this is a slow and uncertain process, and there are doubts about whether it can provide sufficient vitamin A even where dietary change is indeed achieved. Certainly, more work is needed on the most effective dietary ways of beating vitamin A deficiency.

Some countries, particularly in Central America, have fortified sugar with vitamin A (the problem was solved in the industrialized world by adding vitamin A to common foods such as milk, bread, and margarine). But in the developing world as a whole, food fortification is only beginning to be explored.

In the meantime, at least two children are dying every minute for the lack of the protection that vitamin A can bring.

The 2-cent capsules are therefore an essential weapon for the defence of children. And the outreach systems which have been built or strengthened by the immunization effort of the last decade have now made it possible to deliver that protection to the great majority of children at risk.

There can be no excuse for further delay.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Go to top of Document]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.unicef.org/pon95/nutr0002.html


   This is not history, it is current events. Sommer and his work are more recognized now, yet there continue to be many physicians and scientists who fail to "get it" in terms of understanding the science of disease development in terms of nutritional factors. How can the alteration of the aberrant cells in leukaemia be studied and understood without recognizing the substances [nutrients] of which those cells are comprised? With CLO as an ALL preventive, there is much too learn which may well be bypassed because current doctrines restrict what some scientists are permitted to see, or express openly.

Iko,
 I agree, let's all of us start plying the stacks in the libraries searching for clues not yet known. Your posts are so many, I must dedicate a few days to studying them to keep up in this discussion and write the press releases. Thanks for the reposts. Now that you put your foot in the door, Paul, you may want to do some of the research for this topic too.