Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?

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Offline mriver8

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Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« on: 10/02/2015 01:02:30 »
I am not a scientist or even a science major but I have an interest in Physics and I have a loose concept of everything and nothing. Where everything is everything that exists, infinity, multiverse. In other words everything and anything exists somewhere including God. Can you give me some of your thoughts on this? I'm also open to the idea that we will not be able to interpret this in this lifetime. Do you think this leaves room for things that can exist outside of the physical realm or time space somehow? I could have swore I heard a theory in Quantum Mechanics that spoke about thungs existing outside of the physically world because of a mathmatical problem? Does this sound familiar?

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #1 on: 10/02/2015 01:19:06 »
Physics leaves room for verifiable repeatable evidence. People are free to believe in God if they choose, as I personally do, but proving his existence with verifiable repeatable evidence is not going to happen any time soon. And having any success at a science forum regarding the existence of God is also not happening any time soon as well.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #2 on: 10/02/2015 03:39:51 »
God is the only thing I believe without understanding.

I pray daily. Only few words. Please take care the world, and my family. Thank you.

I forgot love.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2015 05:54:02 by jccc »

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Offline Don_1

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #3 on: 10/02/2015 09:11:07 »
Since 'God' or 'Allah' or whatever name you give him (if any such entity exists) appears to be outside of the physical universe, as we know and understand it, I rather doubt that scientific study can either prove or disprove his (her/its) existence, now or at any time in the future.

We are told to have unquestioning faith in God. Those who claim to have unquestioning faith in God are actually displaying unquestioning faith in whoever told them to have unquestioning faith in God. Therefore those scientists who do believe in God are automatically barred from the blasphemy that physically searching for God would be. Those who do not believe in God are unlikely to bother trying to disprove something they do not believe exists!

Even if a non-believer scientist were to embark on a quest to disprove God, they could be biased and in the event of them claiming to have disproved God's existence, would certainly be accused of bias. I could set out in search of the Pigmy Tortoise, at just 7mm long, the smallest tortoise ever to have existed. Just because I don't find it does not necessarily mean it does not exist. It may just mean I didn't look in the right places or hard enough. By the way, before you ask, no, the Pigmy Tortoise does not exist........... Or does it???

Personally, I do not believe in God or any such entity. I do not believe in anything I cannot see with my own two eyes, hear, touch, taste or feel, unless there is overwhelming evidence from those who are of perfectly sound mind who have seen, heard, touched, tasted or felt it first hand, or whatever it is has left undisputable evidence itself.

But what the heck, if others choose to believe in God, so be it. All I would say to the believers is this: You believe in your God, allow others to believe in theirs. You chose your path to your God, allow others to choose theirs.

To those who kill in the name of God/Allah, I ask, are you not, by your own definition, committing the greatest blasphemy of them all?
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #4 on: 10/02/2015 10:43:56 »
Physics is the business of making testable and predictive hypotheses about how the world works. God is something else, apparently.
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Offline syhprum

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #5 on: 10/02/2015 11:49:20 »
No
syhprum

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #6 on: 10/02/2015 13:35:29 »
Physics is the business of making testable and predictive hypotheses about how the world works. God is something else, apparently.

Both are biz of making $ and fame. No?

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Offline Don_1

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #7 on: 10/02/2015 13:45:59 »
Physics is the business of making testable and predictive hypotheses about how the world works. God is something else, apparently.

Both are biz of making $ and fame. No?

That is most certainly the truth in many a case.

Come and rejoice in the name of God and unburden yourself of your troubles and dollars.

Ooer, that was a bit of a give-away.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Merccooper

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #8 on: 10/02/2015 15:45:15 »
mriver8, here is a youtube video that you may find interesting (I know some people on this forum turn their noses up to youtube, but oh well!). I'm not saying I believe or don't believe in the contents of the video, but I think it talks, somewhat, to your question. At a minimum, it will give you another perspective.
 
Great statement Don!
But what the heck, if others choose to believe in God, so be it. All I would say to the believers is this: You believe in your God, allow others to believe in theirs. You chose your path to your God, allow others to choose theirs.

I myself, don't know if I believe or not. I believe the statements made that we will never be able to scientifically prove/disprove the existence of a God.

I've kidded with my wife and kids that Gravity is god. It's properties, reach and impact on everything that we know (and even don't know) is almost beyond believe.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #9 on: 10/02/2015 15:48:22 »
Everything is possible. At least I think it is? Redemption is a nice word, but if you can avoid to create that need as you live, then that's better. Almost impossible to do naturally, we're all fail-able. So we need redemption, and what better way than imagining someone that can deliver it? But I don't think we're created into someone image etc.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

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Offline Bill S

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #10 on: 10/02/2015 20:36:33 »
Quote from: Don
Those who do not believe in God are unlikely to bother trying to disprove something they do not believe exists!

If you really believe that, try trawling through some of the threads in "just chat".   [;D]


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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #11 on: 11/02/2015 03:27:48 »
If we were all born blind, no one can see a little worm on the tree, eats leave for a living, next day turned into a butterfly dancing in the wind.

Was a man is not blind, told us his true story, we got him on the cross.



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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #12 on: 11/02/2015 09:47:22 »
Physics is the business of making testable and predictive hypotheses about how the world works. God is something else, apparently.

Both are biz of making $ and fame. No?

I've never made a lot of $ or through physics, but I've never used it as an excuse for hating or killing anyone. The sooner we get rid of superstition, the sooner the world will be fit for intelligent life.
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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #13 on: 11/02/2015 09:56:36 »
Physics is the business of making testable and predictive hypotheses about how the world works. God is something else, apparently.

Both are biz of making $ and fame. No?

I've never made a lot of $ or through physics, but I've never used it as an excuse for hating or killing anyone. The sooner we get rid of superstition, the sooner the world will be fit for intelligent life.
You mean those who believe QM?

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #14 on: 11/02/2015 13:50:08 »
Quote from: jccc
Starts from tomorrow, I am going to pretend I understand QM.
Why would you lie like that?

Quote from: jccc
If people ask, I'll tell them to read some text book and learn some math first.

How do you think? Pete.
More lies since you yourself wouldn't take that advice? I keep telling you that the important thing is not to "understand" quantum mechanics but to know how to use it. I.e. all students of quantum mechanics are told to stop asking questions about what's "really" going on since we don't have the ability to find that out but to be able to make predictions and to describe what will happen in a given instance. That's why you've been told to study the subject since you haven't learned that yet. Someday you might decide to, say, read the quantum mechanics chapters in the Feynman lectures. Then all of this will become clear to you. Until then you'll keep making these silly comments.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #15 on: 11/02/2015 15:44:23 »
 not to "understand" quantum mechanics but to know how to use it. I.e. all students of quantum mechanics are told to stop asking questions about what's "really" going on.

Superstition?


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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #16 on: 11/02/2015 15:49:53 »
not to "understand" quantum mechanics but to know how to use it. I.e. all students of quantum mechanics are told to stop asking questions about what's "really" going on.

Superstition?
Ignorant response again.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #17 on: 11/02/2015 15:55:04 »
not to "understand" quantum mechanics but to know how to use it. I.e. all students of quantum mechanics are told to stop asking questions about what's "really" going on.

Superstition?
Ignorant response again.

Since I believe God, alan wants to get rid me asap, will you protect me?

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Offline Bill S

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #18 on: 11/02/2015 17:07:17 »
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Since I believe God, alan wants to get rid me asap, will you protect me?

I think you have misjudged Alan, there.  I think he is much more likely to want to talk science, but if you want to talk about God, he would want you to stick around long enough for him to show you how wrong you are. [:)]

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #19 on: 11/02/2015 18:38:43 »
Physics (the study of reality) has nothing to say about the existence of God - it neither rules one in or out. If you want to explore the question of whether there's a God or not you have to use reasoning instead, and even then your system of reasoning may be fundamentally wrong. What you can do though is determine whether God can exist under a specific system of reasoning, and if he can't, then belief in God is incompatible with that system of reasoning and can be declared irrational.

Even if a non-believer scientist were to embark on a quest to disprove God, they could be biased and in the event of them claiming to have disproved God's existence, would certainly be accused of bias. I could set out in search of the Pigmy Tortoise, at just 7mm long, the smallest tortoise ever to have existed. Just because I don't find it does not necessarily mean it does not exist. It may just mean I didn't look in the right places or hard enough. By the way, before you ask, no, the Pigmy Tortoise does not exist........... Or does it???

A pygmy tortoise could easily exist, but there are much greater claims made about God which means he has to be able to jump through more difficult hoops, thereby rendering your example irrelevant. God cannot qualify as God unless he understands what he is and how he works, but if he understands all of that he loses any kind of magic that gives him a status greater than any ordinary, natural being. It is impossible for God to qualify as God within the bounds of reason. Another problem for him is the fact that he supposedly created everything and yet he acts using magic powers which he did not create.

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But what the heck, if others choose to believe in God, so be it. All I would say to the believers is this: You believe in your God, allow others to believe in theirs. You chose your path to your God, allow others to choose theirs.

Sadly it isn't that benign. People have to pick and choose which bits of their religion they believe and which they reject if they are to avoid doing a lot of bad things which their holy books tell them to do, and most of them are happy to do that (reject the bad bits), but in doing so they are propping up very dangerous ideologies, and when people of low intelligence decide they want to do their religion properly, something they see as a highly respectable thing to do, they fail to recognise the need to reject all the bad bits and believe that God actually wants them to carry out every instruction to the letter. When they do this, mass murder is the result.

Quote
To those who kill in the name of God/Allah, I ask, are you not, by your own definition, committing the greatest blasphemy of them all?

No - they are the ones who are doing their religion properly, fully respecting the Chief of the Fairies at the top. If we're ever going to sort out the mess that religion has made in the world, we need people to make up their mind whether they're in or out of it and to stop hanging about in a half-way position where they accept parts and reject parts on the basis of their own judgements - they are giving credibility and respectability to extremely dangerous texts which command people to do harm to others who don't deserve it. Put the fairy tales in the bin where they belong.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #20 on: 11/02/2015 20:13:59 »
not to "understand" quantum mechanics but to know how to use it. I.e. all students of quantum mechanics are told to stop asking questions about what's "really" going on.

Superstition?
Ignorant response again.

Since I believe God, alan wants to get rid me asap, will you protect me?

Pete, do you love me?

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Offline phyti39

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #21 on: 11/02/2015 20:38:02 »
Since 'God' or 'Allah' or whatever name you give him (if any such entity exists) appears to be outside of the physical universe, as we know and understand it, I rather doubt that scientific study can either prove or disprove his (her/its) existence, now or at any time in the future.

Personally, I do not believe in God or any such entity. I do not believe in anything I cannot see with my own two eyes, hear, touch, taste or feel, unless there is overwhelming evidence from those who are of perfectly sound mind who have seen, heard, touched, tasted or felt it first hand, or whatever it is has left undisputable evidence itself.

That is the world you inhabit. All your sensory input is traceable to em radiation, an indirect perception of things invisible. The forms the mind has invented for objects, at all scales, exist only in the mind. What they represent outside the mind is unknown, and probably unknowable. You believe in these entities, yet they are invisible.

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Offline phyti39

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #22 on: 11/02/2015 20:42:25 »
My definition of science is philosophy augmented with a system of measurement, the modus operandi of science. If you can't measure it, science cannot analyze it. A Creator and the spiritual attributes he promotes; love, compassion, justice, etc., are outside the realm of science. As an example, how much love will a liter size container hold?
If science were to study charity, it would probably equate its magnitude to the amount of wealth donated, yet the scriptural evaluation states motive is more important than amount.
Why is the world more beautiful and varied than it has to be, to support life? Science can only speculate about these things. Assuming a "Supreme Being", who is eternal, and invisible, the human creature can only learn about him by divine revelation.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #23 on: 11/02/2015 20:55:54 »
Quote from: jccc
Pete, do you love me?
You've got to be joking. You're an irritating pest that thinks the world of physics should change to fit the way he thought it always was instead of learning the way it really is.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #24 on: 11/02/2015 20:59:17 »
Quote from: David Cooper
No - they are the ones who are doing their religion properly, fully respecting the Chief of the Fairies at the top.
Not at all. There's nothing in either the Bible or the Qur'an that gives anybody the right to kill others. Muslims lie about their use of it because they either twist what it states to fit their needs or they don't understand it. A lot of them simply never read the Qur'an just like most Christians haven't read the Bible.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #25 on: 11/02/2015 21:07:35 »
Quote from: jccc
Pete, do you love me?
You've got to be joking. You're an irritating pest that thinks the world of physics should change to fit the way he thought it always was instead of learning the way it really is.

I see. Thanks for been honest.

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #26 on: 11/02/2015 22:25:49 »


Pete, do you love me?
I think Pete loves science, as I do as well, and most of the membership here at TNS! There are however a few exceptions, I think those folks know who they are.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #27 on: 11/02/2015 22:30:55 »

You mean those who believe QM?

Scientific knowledge advances through unbelief. Mankind regresses to the intellect of an amoeba through belief.

No, come to think of it, amoeba, and even viruses, are capable of learning and adapting. It seems that only humans are stupid enough to have faith.
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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #28 on: 11/02/2015 22:42:03 »
Exactly, I unbelief QM.

Am I a male stupid amoeba?

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Offline syhprum

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #29 on: 11/02/2015 23:00:44 »
Every year I visit friends in Indianapolis so that I can visit the Indy500 race , I find their irrational religious beliefs rather a strain but I have to remember not to argue or protests too much or I would have to pay for a hotel instead, I even attend church and have to work hard not to laugh
syhprum

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #30 on: 12/02/2015 00:11:00 »
Quote from: jccc
I see. Thanks for been honest.
You're welcome.

By the way. Please don't take my comment about you being a pest as a personal insult. That was not its intent. In my opinion it is merely a negative attribute that you have. That doesn't say anything about you as a person since I don't know you personally. I think it could be as you said, i.e. that perhaps you're too lazy to do the reading required to understand all of this. You should take Jeff's attitude as a guide. Jeff is awesome as far as forum members go and I think you have a lot to learn from him as far as his willingness to do the hard work required to understand all of this stuff. Anybody who thinks that they can learn and properly understand quantum mechanics without doing a lot of hard work is deluding themselves.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #31 on: 12/02/2015 00:19:53 »
Pete, not at all.

I want to learn those 3 things all my life, atomic structure, gravity and magnetism. That's how I found this forum.




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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #32 on: 12/02/2015 08:37:53 »
Exactly, I unbelief QM.

Am I a male stupid amoeba?

Quantum mechanics has nothing to do with belief. It's the mathematical description of observations.
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #33 on: 12/02/2015 15:11:52 »
Pete, not at all.

I want to learn those 3 things all my life, atomic structure, gravity and magnetism. That's how I found this forum.
And yet you're not willing to do the work required to learn them.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #34 on: 12/02/2015 17:40:39 »
Observation of anything and everything, so far.
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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #35 on: 12/02/2015 18:14:34 »
Quote from: David Cooper
No - they are the ones who are doing their religion properly, fully respecting the Chief of the Fairies at the top.
Not at all. There's nothing in either the Bible or the Qur'an that gives anybody the right to kill others. Muslims lie about their use of it because they either twist what it states to fit their needs or they don't understand it. A lot of them simply never read the Qur'an just like most Christians haven't read the Bible.

I've read the whole of the Qur'aan and it goes to great lengths instructing Muslims to kill non-Muslims. I haven't found anything quite so bad in the Bible, though I haven't felt the need to read the whole of the Old Testament yet. However, the Bible has been used to justify a lot of mass murder in the past, so there are clearly extremely dangerous faults in it that allow this to happen, and you'd think a God ought to have managed to do a perfect job of preventing that.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #36 on: 12/02/2015 18:37:18 »
Every year I visit friends in Indianapolis so that I can visit the Indy500 race , I find their irrational religious beliefs rather a strain but I have to remember not to argue or protests too much or I would have to pay for a hotel instead, I even attend church and have to work hard not to laugh

You are killing me, again.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #37 on: 12/02/2015 22:03:27 »
If you are God, you can create anything you want to, what would you like to create?

Let's see the material world first. You need space, matter, force to build anything that is real to human mind.

Atom, how is it build? If you only have two charged particles, 1 proton and 1 electron.

According to your law, they attract each other, the closer the stronger. f=q1q2/r^2. they become a little dot with positive force field on one side and negative the other. That's not the atom we see.

You have two choices, add more charge/matter or change your law. You forgot you have more matter, so you changed your law, one for things eyes can see, one for the minds to see.

You forgot you only have 1 law, the truth.

Do you really need to change your law? If you remembered the other matter that is the charged space itself.

 




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Offline syhprum

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #38 on: 12/02/2015 22:37:29 »
If god made protons why did he not make it solid instead of a bag of Quarks, Gluons and what not, was it not as St Aquinas said because he was to busy creating hells for those who ask too many questions.
syhprum

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #39 on: 13/02/2015 00:44:31 »
After you created the universe, the glory stars, grand planets and sweet moons, you look around, feel lonely, created living things.

Then you look around, the flower, the butterfly, the living and love in animals, then you cried. All the beauty, all the love, no one to share.

What are you going to do? God




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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #40 on: 13/02/2015 02:30:05 »
True science leads the way to God.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #41 on: 13/02/2015 03:18:59 »
I mean open minded science.

Share a poetry I loved.

as electricity as mirage

as dream as bobble

all things we can see

should be that way


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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #42 on: 13/02/2015 04:25:26 »
Quote from: David Cooper
I've read the whole of the Qur'aan and it goes to great lengths instructing Muslims to kill non-Muslims.
Please show me where it says that. I think you're misinterpreting it. I know that it talks about killing non-Muslims during war etc but not to kill them merely for not being a Muslim.

Quote from: David Cooper
I haven't found anything quite so bad in the Bible, though I haven't felt the need to read the whole of the Old Testament yet.
In the Old Testament God tells the Hebrews to take the towns that are in the promised land my killing every single man, woman and child that is already there. That includes slaughtering infants too. And that's only because their home is in that land.

Quote from: David Cooper
A lot of them simply never read the Qur'an just like most Christians haven't read the Bible.
Quite true!

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #43 on: 13/02/2015 04:25:52 »
True science leads the way to God.
Not true at all.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #44 on: 13/02/2015 05:05:39 »
I had profound ob experience, do you?

I discovered things beyond my knowledge, will you believe?

What are you going to lose if open your mind to live?

To learn science and everything.

Its your own mind, you decide.


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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #45 on: 13/02/2015 18:28:32 »
Quote from: David Cooper
I've read the whole of the Qur'aan and it goes to great lengths instructing Muslims to kill non-Muslims.
Please show me where it says that. I think you're misinterpreting it. I know that it talks about killing non-Muslims during war etc but not to kill them merely for not being a Muslim.

There's always a war on if you decide you want to kill people. The Qur'aan is the second most depressing book I've ever read and I have no intention of trawling through it listing the points where it calls on people to do thing that are horribly wrong, half of them involving killing innocent people.

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Quote from: David Cooper
I haven't found anything quite so bad in the Bible, though I haven't felt the need to read the whole of the Old Testament yet.
In the Old Testament God tells the Hebrews to take the towns that are in the promised land my killing every single man, woman and child that is already there. That includes slaughtering infants too. And that's only because their home is in that land.

Thanks for correcting your earlier point, which was:-

There's nothing in either the Bible or the Qur'an that gives anybody the right to kill others.

Quote
Quote from: David Cooper
A lot of them simply never read the Qur'an just like most Christians haven't read the Bible.
Quite true!

True indeed, but it isn't a quote from me.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #46 on: 13/02/2015 20:16:21 »
Seriously, who is more superstition?

People who believe time travel, QM, gravity wave, photon, strong and weak forces, and God.

Or people who believe time travel, QM, gravity wave, photon, strong and weak forces, not God.

Truth will seek you when you induce it.


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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #47 on: 13/02/2015 20:18:29 »
People do not need a book of any kind to justify killing each other. A government edict will do just nicely.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #48 on: 13/02/2015 20:31:42 »
We're humans, our minds contain multitudes, not all nice. The trick is to try to be the one you would like to know yourself, and dared to introduce to your folks back home:)
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

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Offline jccc

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Re: Do you beleive Physics leaves room for God?
« Reply #49 on: 14/02/2015 00:36:48 »
I wonder, if we were not created, how could we create?

Any merit in logic?