[alancalverd]

To what extent might depression itself be a vanity? Faced with a present threat to life and limb, whether acute (charging elephant)  or chronic (elephants eat my crops), does anyone think about how he should feel, or do we just get on with fixing the problem?   

Perhaps, having the luxury of time and resources to reflect on our moods, makes us construct internal problems in order to stimulate the adrenal system.

And to what extent was depression diagnosed before antidepressants were marketed? The similarity with asthma is noticeable. Mental health diagnoses come and go: just compare any two editions of DSM, and note the number of cases on which each diagnosis is based - some would be regarded as decidedly flimsy in any other branch of science. 

There's no doubt that some people have real problems, but I suspect that for many people the decision of where they sit on a continuous, multidimensional spectrum of mental heath is not an objective one.

You might get more sympathy from a surgeon who had broken a leg or two, but would you get better treatment? If you think the world is going to hell in a handbasket and I agree, would we change each other's opinion? (OK, it is, but let's not dwell on the subject).     

[puppypower]

The original few paragraphs of this topic was about how when depressed one is not able to feel the same things as one can when they are in a good mood. The word love has more meaning if one is happy, but does not do the same thing when one is depressed. To quote the first few paragraphs;

I struggle with depression and I have this philosophical question that I need an answer for. Actually, it might even be a scientific question.

Now I need to know the answer to this very vital question. I am thinking that there is only one way love, joy, happiness, and inspiration can be experienced. That being, through our reward system (our good moods). The more our reward system is functional and healthy, the more of those things we will have in our lives since our good moods would be greater. But like I said before, there is the difference between words and phrases and our mental states.

So by depressed people focusing on words and phrases alone of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, they are only fooling themselves into thinking they are in love, joyful, happy, and inspired while depressed when they never were since depression as well as anhedonia are what turn off our reward system (our good moods). Even if they focused on the mental state of their thinking while depressed and told themselves that this is a form of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, then they would be fooling themselves here as well since they are not in the actual mental state of having those things.

This is actually a good observation and is connected to the way the brain writes data to memory. When the brain writes memory to the cerebral matter, aspects of the limbic system, within the core region of the brain, will attach an emotional valence. This memory binary of thought and feeling, is useful to animals since sensory triggering of similar memory will induce the same feeling, allowing the animal can act with instinct; without thinking. For example, if food item was good, this data will be stored in memory with an attached good feeling. The next time the animal sees a similar item, and this triggers memory, he will feel good, and will eat.

That being said, this schema of memory storage allows the brain to store our memory in layers, based on which feeling is being induced. If we feel hungry, we don't think about math equations or get upset about global warming, but rather the hunger layer will appear with food items; similar valence. This is also useful to the animal since it helps him to focus memory groupings on a layer. If the animal begins to feels hunger and also feels it is time to hunt or gather, this memory valance layer will become active; starts to search.

Depression is anger turned inward, therefore depression will trigger a memory layer with the valence of sad and angry. Love and happiness based memories are stored on another layer. You noticed that this other layer was connected to the valence of the reward system. The words to describe this happy layer run hollow, since the feeling of depression, is keeping the angry/sad layer active. When you trigger the proper memory layer of love and happiness, then the valence of the words appear due to being part of this layer; when originally programmed by culture.

Because the memory is a combination of feeling and thought, we can begin with a thought and induce a feeling or we can begin with a feeling to induce a thought. Try this experiment. Think about being hungry or wait until hungry and see what thought appears in your mind. Or go to a bakery and smell the fresh bread and see what you begin to feel. Both paths lead to the same layer. 

In the case of depression, the sad feeling comes first and focuses all your thoughts onto that one sad layer. This makes it hard to feel other things and think outside the box of that layer. You will need to try and think of a good time and allow the imagery to appear until its associated good feeling appears. Depression can be tough, because if this is chemical in nature, there can be a trickle of chemicals that keeps the valance coming back to that one layer, even of you can change it for a short time.

In this is the case, you may need an external induction that is a stubborn as the internal induction; get a puppy. A puppy will build a layer of good feelings. The pup will not give you the option to remain introverted for too long, trying to reinforce the depression layer. Instead he/she will build a new layer based on unconditional love for you as his/her best friend, where those words will have meaning.

[Atomic-S]

Thank you for the rather scientific explanation of all this.  A puppy might really be a good idea, although we don't really know much about Ryuzaki's condition, environment, or history; all of which anyone wishing to diagnose the condition accurately would want to look into.  Although the moods will affect what layers of memory are effectively accessed, what remains unclear to me is why specific moods in this case exist to begin with. We all have moods, obviously; and these often have to do with  circumstances we have been experiencing recently, or might be affected by the time of day, lack of sleep, drugs, etc.; but in some people they may  on strongly without any clear external cause. If that is the case, it suggests a neurological problem, and such a person should definitely be seen by a physician.

[Detective L Ryuzaki (OP)]

Now I think we all agree here that love, joy, happiness, and inspiration are mental states created by the chemicals in our brains.  But when a depressed person has those chemicals shut down, then some depressed people (especially those who have it severe) cannot experience those things.  So now the question comes in as to how they can find good meaning in their lives despite their depression.  Some people have to live with treatment resistant depression that never gets better most or even their entire lives.  So it is vital that they find good meaning in their lives.  Otherwise, they will become suicidal and end their lives. 

But here's the thing.  Isn't having good meaning in your life the very definition of having love, joy, happiness, and inspiration (your good moods)?  To me, someone who is finding good meaning in his/her life and is pursuing his/her goals/dreams and helping others out in the community is a person who is experiencing joy, love, happiness, and inspiration.  Otherwise, I just don't see how a person would have the optimistic attitude of having good meaning in his/her life if he/she did not have any love, joy, happiness, or inspiration at all.  To me, that would just be thinking and telling yourself nothing more than the words and phrases of good meaning, but not actually having any good meaning in your life.

[puppypower]

Again, it comes back to how memory is created. Feelings are attached to thoughts when our memory is written to the cerebral. This places various memories, with similar valence, on specific layers. Layers can be multi-dimensional. For example, if I feel hungry, the types of food that might appear in my imagination, connected to the hunger layer, is not always the same. These memories can change, by being connected to the time of day (breakfast or lunch) the day of the week (Monday or Friday) seasonal (summer or winter) and even based on holiday. Hunger on New Years will trigger a different area of the layer than hunger on the first day of summer. There is a lot on this layer, with time and space connections being used as secondary tags that give the layer volume.

Depression has its own layer based on its unique emotional tone, with this layer also spread out over time such as morning and night, winter and summer. Because the depression layers has its own unique emotional tone, you can't pull love and meaning memories into the depression layer, beyond an intellectual exercise, unless you can make the brain add the wrong emotional tag to those memories; depressed/love. This is not natural and will not work in the long term.

You need to get away from the depression memory layer, and move to a layer where there are better emotions for a happy life. The problem with some drugs is these may shut off the depression layer, but often one becomes numb to others emotions. The depression can stop but still there is no meaning due to now strong layer. This is why I suggested an external source of demand on your attention, that can generated fun and delight for a secondary layer to appear through an external induction.

A few years back, I wanted to get back into shape, but I did not have the discipline to exercise on a regular basis. This was not due to depression. However the same basic layer dynamics were at work. I was stuck on a lazy layer of relaxation and holiday, such that the motivating emotion needed to be in shape ran hollow to m. I could reason at the intellectual level the need for exercise, but there was no feeling behind the thought that could drive me into that reality. There was a disconnect between the words.

I bought a Doberman male puppy who was from a European work dog line. I did not fully understand what a work dog meant. I thought it was all about looks and being larger. What doberman work dog meant was an extremely high drive dog with aggression issues, than needed to be molded into a job.  I could not be lazy, even if I wanted to, because his endless drive and activity would push and challenge me. He pushed me, like a trainer, over the hump into a new layer.

As he got older, he got bigger, faster, smarter and even more scary and would challenge me for pack order. Some days I would need to have a weapon to feel on par. He enjoyed playing fighting with me. He wanted me to stay in the moment, in full control as the alpha of the pack. If I got lazy and/or wanted to regress backwards, he would think he needed to be alpha, and my boss. That was not going to happen. Eventually I become more confident, in good shape, and he became easier to handle.

I would not suggest a protection style work dog, but rather a breed of dog who is sweet and who likes being with you, who can help you to cycle into a new layer. Golden Retrievers are sweet highly intelligent dogs with good energy and a happy disposition.

[Detective L Ryuzaki (OP)]

Again, it comes back to how memory is created. Feelings are attached to thoughts when our memory is written to the cerebral. This places various memories, with similar valence, on specific layers. Layers can be multi-dimensional. For example, if I feel hungry, the types of food that might appear in my imagination, connected to the hunger layer, is not always the same. These memories can change, by being connected to the time of day (breakfast or lunch) the day of the week (Monday or Friday) seasonal (summer or winter) and even based on holiday. Hunger on New Years will trigger a different area of the layer than hunger on the first day of summer. There is a lot on this layer, with time and space connections being used as secondary tags that give the layer volume.

Depression has its own layer based on its unique emotional tone, with this layer also spread out over time such as morning and night, winter and summer. Because the depression layers has its own unique emotional tone, you can't pull love and meaning memories into the depression layer, beyond an intellectual exercise, unless you can make the brain add the wrong emotional tag to those memories; depressed/love. This is not natural and will not work in the long term.

You need to get away from the depression memory layer, and move to a layer where there are better emotions for a happy life. The problem with some drugs is these may shut off the depression layer, but often one becomes numb to others emotions. The depression can stop but still there is no meaning due to now strong layer. This is why I suggested an external source of demand on your attention, that can generated fun and delight for a secondary layer to appear through an external induction.

A few years back, I wanted to get back into shape, but I did not have the discipline to exercise on a regular basis. This was not due to depression. However the same basic layer dynamics were at work. I was stuck on a lazy layer of relaxation and holiday, such that the motivating emotion needed to be in shape ran hollow to m. I could reason at the intellectual level the need for exercise, but there was no feeling behind the thought that could drive me into that reality. There was a disconnect between the words.

I bought a Doberman male puppy who was from a European work dog line. I did not fully understand what a work dog meant. I thought it was all about looks and being larger. What doberman work dog meant was an extremely high drive dog with aggression issues, than needed to be molded into a job.  I could not be lazy, even if I wanted to, because his endless drive and activity would push and challenge me. He pushed me, like a trainer, over the hump into a new layer.

As he got older, he got bigger, faster, smarter and even more scary and would challenge me for pack order. Some days I would need to have a weapon to feel on par. He enjoyed playing fighting with me. He wanted me to stay in the moment, in full control as the alpha of the pack. If I got lazy and/or wanted to regress backwards, he would think he needed to be alpha, and my boss. That was not going to happen. Eventually I become more confident, in good shape, and he became easier to handle.

I would not suggest a protection style work dog, but rather a breed of dog who is sweet and who likes being with you, who can help you to cycle into a new layer. Golden Retrievers are sweet highly intelligent dogs with good energy and a happy disposition.

But what I am asking here is that even if you did have a positive layer in your life, but felt depression due to a chemical imbalance or mental defect that has nothing to do with your outlook on life, then as long as the depression is keeping those chemicals that make you happy turned off, then wouldn't this positive layer be useless then?  It might be there, but it cannot bring you any happiness as long as the chemicals responsible for your experience of happiness are turned off.  Sure, that layer might eventually ease up your depression over time and might perhaps bring back some happiness for you.  But you have to understand here that there are many depressed people who are treatment resistant who cannot get such betterment in their lives.

[Atomic-S]

If the Coast Guard receives a distress signal but is not skilled in its language and is not able to locate the source, the Guard may have a hard time mounting a rescue.  The Guard might try to get more accurate information by attempting to query the source as to any useful clues such as nearby islands or fathomings.

So let us try applying that principle to this case:

What is your current age?

When did you first start having this depression?

Is the onset of the history of depression associated with any known identifiable event, such as the death of a family member?

Are you currently using any psychoactive medications (legal or otherwise), or have you done so in the past?

Is there any history of mental illness in your family?

Are you employed, and if so, doing what?

Have you been employed in the past, and if so, doing what?

What kind of a relationship have you had in the past with family members or others with whom you primarily associated? Helpful or unhelpful? Caring or uncaring? Positive or negative?

Do you currently live with anyone?

Do you currently have any friends?

What is the highest educational level you have achieved?

Have you had family or friends in the past that are now gone?

Did you have any complications associated with your birth that might have produced brain damage?

Do you attend a house of worship with any regularity?

Have you had any head injuries, encephalitis, or other specific disease episodes that could have involved the brain?

Do you have any neurological problems such as epilepsy, Parkinson's, Tourette's syndrome, St. Vitus' dance, or essential tremor?

Do you commonly practice or harbor any goals, objectives, desires, pet obsessions, projects, or habits that could be considered disgraceful, undignified, crooked, dishonest, socially harmful, or subhuman?

Do you believe in an afterlife?

Do you regularly view or read material that is violent, depraved, pornographic, or anti-social?

Are  you currently under any medical treatment for your condition?

Are you now or have you ever been an inpatient in a mental institution?

Does your depression come on as a result of identifiable contemplations, such as the high level of crime in the world, human mortality, war, the apparent irredemability of human nature, uncertainty as to the destiny of the human soul; or reading or viewing certain types of material that might deal in such subjects; or is your depression not brought on by thoughts specifically related to such things?

Do you have any other medical conditions, especially those that would involve taking medications that could have side effects?


It would be enormously helpful, when discussing your case, if you were to answer each of these questions.

[Atomic-S]

Also: 

Have you been tested for autoimmune disease, which could be involved?

Did  your mother abuse alcohol/drugs during pregnancy?

Is there anything significantly substandard about your diet, particularly with respect to B vitamins or overconsumption of sugar?

[puppypower]

Again, it comes back to how memory is created. Feelings are attached to thoughts when our memory is written to the cerebral. This places various memories, with similar valence, on specific layers. Layers can be multi-dimensional. For example, if I feel hungry, the types of food that might appear in my imagination, connected to the hunger layer, is not always the same. These memories can change, by being connected to the time of day (breakfast or lunch) the day of the week (Monday or Friday) seasonal (summer or winter) and even based on holiday. Hunger on New Years will trigger a different area of the layer than hunger on the first day of summer. There is a lot on this layer, with time and space connections being used as secondary tags that give the layer volume.

Depression has its own layer based on its unique emotional tone, with this layer also spread out over time such as morning and night, winter and summer. Because the depression layers has its own unique emotional tone, you can't pull love and meaning memories into the depression layer, beyond an intellectual exercise, unless you can make the brain add the wrong emotional tag to those memories; depressed/love. This is not natural and will not work in the long term.

You need to get away from the depression memory layer, and move to a layer where there are better emotions for a happy life. The problem with some drugs is these may shut off the depression layer, but often one becomes numb to others emotions. The depression can stop but still there is no meaning due to now strong layer. This is why I suggested an external source of demand on your attention, that can generated fun and delight for a secondary layer to appear through an external induction.

A few years back, I wanted to get back into shape, but I did not have the discipline to exercise on a regular basis. This was not due to depression. However the same basic layer dynamics were at work. I was stuck on a lazy layer of relaxation and holiday, such that the motivating emotion needed to be in shape ran hollow to m. I could reason at the intellectual level the need for exercise, but there was no feeling behind the thought that could drive me into that reality. There was a disconnect between the words.

I bought a Doberman male puppy who was from a European work dog line. I did not fully understand what a work dog meant. I thought it was all about looks and being larger. What doberman work dog meant was an extremely high drive dog with aggression issues, than needed to be molded into a job.  I could not be lazy, even if I wanted to, because his endless drive and activity would push and challenge me. He pushed me, like a trainer, over the hump into a new layer.

As he got older, he got bigger, faster, smarter and even more scary and would challenge me for pack order. Some days I would need to have a weapon to feel on par. He enjoyed playing fighting with me. He wanted me to stay in the moment, in full control as the alpha of the pack. If I got lazy and/or wanted to regress backwards, he would think he needed to be alpha, and my boss. That was not going to happen. Eventually I become more confident, in good shape, and he became easier to handle.

I would not suggest a protection style work dog, but rather a breed of dog who is sweet and who likes being with you, who can help you to cycle into a new layer. Golden Retrievers are sweet highly intelligent dogs with good energy and a happy disposition.

But what I am asking here is that even if you did have a positive layer in your life, but felt depression due to a chemical imbalance or mental defect that has nothing to do with your outlook on life, then as long as the depression is keeping those chemicals that make you happy turned off, then wouldn't this positive layer be useless then?  It might be there, but it cannot bring you any happiness as long as the chemicals responsible for your experience of happiness are turned off.  Sure, that layer might eventually ease up your depression over time and might perhaps bring back some happiness for you.  But you have to understand here that there are many depressed people who are treatment resistant who cannot get such betterment in their lives.

There is something else that exists in conjunction with the layers of memory. The operating system for the human mind is grounded on personality firmware. These were called archetypes of the collective unconscious by the late psychologist Carl Jung. I like the term personality firmware, because it describes these pliable aspects of the brain's conscious operating system, using computer analogy. The personality firmware defines our natural human propensity; human nature. These are common to all humans and characterize us a species. The lion has different firmware geared to his/her nature common to their species.

These firmware are grounded in our human genetics and are empty of content at birth. They develop through genetic potential (like your feet growing) as well as through interaction wth the environment. A good analogy for the firmware are seeds. The tomato seed is small and does not look like a tomato plant. However, even as a seed, it contains the genetic potential to grow into a full mature plant that makes its characteristic fruit. If you ever grew tomatoes, the final plant is not only dependent on the genetics of the seeds (breeder pack), but it is also on the environmental conditions. Things like light, temperature, rain, soil pH, nutrients, shade, bugs, weeds, virus, can all impact the final plant.

The memory layers are not only connected to the common emotional tags, but these common emotional tags also have a connection to the personally firmware. As an example, if one falls in love, the firmware of love will become active. This is common too all humans. This is not done with the will but seems to be trigger by fate. Once active, the firmware paints the world with rose colored glasses; emotional tagging, and may even trick the imagination to see the beloved in a mythological way; most beautiful person in the world. Your fiends may not see the same thing.

The firmware plant is growing via the DNA. The growth is motiving us to collect data for its connected layer; learning potential, that is flavored by the emotion of the firmware; love and desire. The firmware of love, like the tomato plant can have good soil or bad soil and may grow well or may show stress. Falling out of love is often due to the growth spurt stopping so other firmware can active and develop. Love is work at this point and you need to depend on the memories to reinforce the love by triggering the bridge layer, then adding to this.

One tomato plant, from one seed in the pack, may become huge with lots of fruit, but in another seed from the same pack can become mutant looking due to toxic soil. If the plant was made toxic, you can't just pretend all is well and this will be the best crop ever. The firmware will have this lingering impact. You need to dig up the plant, trim it back, and then replant it somewhere else, more conducive to healthy growth. There will be a transition period until new growth appears.

The firmware are not software or hardware. It is not all in the mind or all hard wired by biology. It has a genetic component that makes it firm, but pliable organic, and also a software component; conscious memory layer. It is pliable and like a plant can be trimmed back and repotted. They are perennials. The dog suggestion was based on repotting the active depressed firmware, with the constant need of the puppy, trimming the bad branches. As the the new branches appear these will grow and drive the collection of new memories, to populate that layer. Nature wants us to be healthy and happy.