[kurtosis]

Update on my status:

I agreed the Herman Copper toxicity theory and about to start the vitamins and minerals that he is suggested and consulted my doctor.  My doctor also quite impressed by his theory and he suggested me to undergone, Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis.  He told that it is the most accurate test to determine imbalance in minerals in the body tissues.  I ordered this Test and gave my sample hair.  It will take around one month for the report in our area. 

I also advised each and every one to do this analysis before starting any vitamin & mineral supplements. 

Hi Nathan,
What country are you from?

[romies]

Romies
You have to be kidding me with Finasteride.   Effectively  blocked?   Finasteride is  POISON.   I have  people  who are trying to overcome the effects of that crap for years.  Stay away from that stuff/    Some  reports POIS symptoms from using  finasteride.

One man's meat is another man's poison.

A lot of people who used Finasteride are for male pattern baldness, and did not get tested for serum DHT level or did not have a particularly elevated DHT level. So for highly elevated serum DHT, finasteride is still an option.

About side effect, thank you for pointing out the large number of webpages about "Post-Finasteride Syndrome". We don't know yet how many percentage of the finasteride user is affected. and there is no PubMed papers on this topic at all. Hopefully there will be double-blind studies on this issue soon.

[romies]

What do you mean by "pronounced?"

My apologies for my sleep-deprivation-induced language-difficulty. I meant "produced"

If you're suggesting that more people should display signs of vitamin D deficiency then perhaps they do?
In Ireland where I live it's emerging that many people are vitamin D deficient. Particularly elderly people but they never associated that with bone weakness, fatigue or depression. http://www.ijms.ie/portals/_ijms/documents/op-506.pdf [nofollow]

I wanted to suggest that it may be useful to test serum Vd level more often. My own VD testing was done 1 year ago, before I discovered this forum and read your very insightful posts.

One reason for the blood testing is that there are several enzymes (liver and kidney) needed for converting oral Vd to its active form. 23andme has those raw data.

The sun exposure probably is a bigger contributor. So the hypothesis above may not apply to you.

I live in the southern US with ample sunlight year round. So personally I was surprised last year to find out I was Vd deficient.

Plus, we need more VD for our VDR mutations.

I tested urinary ammonia and it was elevated. I haven't had glutathione tested. However, some supplementary glutathione appeared to reduce my acne dramatically. I have no idea why. It shouldn't work as there are 2 laboratory experiments showing poor absorption.

I saw B Daniel's glutathione tests and they appeared low but as far as I remember he doesn't have a CBS upregulation mutation. Yes Yasko appears obsessed with CBS but she's obsessed with it because she claims she keeps seeing it in autism patients she's treating. So either she's telling porkies or it's correlated with some other mutation or set of mutations that seems to co-occur with CBS. No idea. While the MIT.edu paper is interesting it doesn't really prove or disprove the validity of Yasko's treatment regime, it just points out that there are contradictions. If this was a maths paper, you could say it's "false" but it's a complicated chemical system with currently unknown variables so the unintended consequences (which may be beneficial) are unknowable.

There seem to be lots of contradictions in Yasko's work anyway. I've posted before about the RNA preparations which must degrade at room temperature and render themselves useless. I never worked my way through her patent on a mechanism to prevent degradation. I know there's quite some scientific skepticism about it

Yasko, A. Arrow , et al. (1993) Acid Stable End Blocked Nucleic Acids and Therapeutic Uses Thereof. US Patent

However, when a precise mechanism of interaction is unknown all experiments can do is prod around the edges and try to establish what may be happening. i.e. she could be wrong about ammonia but she may be spotting some connection between CBS or a concurrent mutation and acidity, leading to greater ammonia production.

I am pretty skeptical about her RNA preparations as well. Not to sound like an narrow-minded referee , this extracellular RNA is really unstable, in both GI tract and all body fluids, and is often packaged within vesicles. I don't think it is well understood yet, and her claims of using it in clinical setting is quite dubious.

Generally I try to think of pretty simple hypotheses and test them on myself with safe doses of vitamins. When I say safe I mean, well below doses that have been shown to be toxic but perhaps above the RDA.
Vitamin D supplementation appears to work. I took a multivitamin with methylfolate and methylcobalamin instead of the usual folic acid and cyanocobalamin. Added some adenosylcobalamin and vitamin D and life improved. In particular I felt more energy and less aches/pains. These were present most of the time and affected my ability to exercise, run, play sports etc. I didn't associate them with POIS until it seemed that my reaction to orgasm improved with my tolerance for exercise and my general mood.

Okay Q&A time here:

1. Mind sharing what kind of glutathione supplement do you take now?  GSH or N-acetylcysteine? and what brand? (I have quite a bit of acnes too when I take methyl-folate and methyl-cobalamin)

2. what brand of complex-B do you take now for adenosylcobalamin? I tried thorne extra-nutrients, but unfortunately it seems to have too much niacin and makes me feel far worse.

Thanks!

From reading other posts, these symptoms appear correlated in other POIS sufferers. i.e. this thing just doesn't affect us at orgasm.

Anyway, just some thoughts

[romies]

Anyway I'm curious and i'm trying right now the B6 for 5 days and add the zinc yesterday.

I'm high in prolactin, use to be low in testo(but apparently not reliable),high in cholesterol, my feritin is just in the middle of the range like cortisol,my copper serum is low(don't know if reliable) Niacin doesn't really work for me, I don't feel alergic when i'm in POIS, NSaids is the only thing that work for me and i'm not positive to skin ***** test.

Since you feel allergic and Niacin does not work for you, maybe Kurtosis regimen will work (methyl-guard, VC, ginkgo/blueberry extract)? see this link for details: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.0 [nofollow]

You can ask Kurtosis himself. The regimen has been evolving overtime.. my understanding is probably 45-deg out-of-phase with Kurtosis and need to catch up. 

[kurtosis]

N-acetylcysteine (NAC) but it's probably better if I PM you as I think forum rules forbid any discussion that looks like it's promotion of a commercial product.

[kurtosis]

Anyway I'm curious and i'm trying right now the B6 for 5 days and add the zinc yesterday.

I'm high in prolactin, use to be low in testo(but apparently not reliable),high in cholesterol, my feritin is just in the middle of the range like cortisol,my copper serum is low(don't know if reliable) Niacin doesn't really work for me, I don't feel alergic when i'm in POIS, NSaids is the only thing that work for me and i'm not positive to skin ***** test.

Since you feel allergic and Niacin does not work for you, maybe Kurtosis regimen will work (methyl-guard, VC, ginkgo/blueberry extract)? see this link for details: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.0

You can ask Kurtosis himself. The regimen has been evolving overtime.. my understanding is probably 45-deg out-of-phase with Kurtosis and need to catch up. 

Thanks Romies but my regimen was based on doing some genetic testing and seeing what vitamins I might need more of. That's about it. I posted a lot about POIS being related to a combination of neurotransmitter levels changing rapidly and over release of histamine (itself a neurotransmitter) following an O. I still think this is probably the case and I think it was interesting that Nathan had such relief from sibelium / flunarizine.

However, I'm not a doctor and I can't treat anyone.

My regimen as such is
- a multivitamin with active b vitamins only. (only the "coenzymes" to bypass potential genetic mutations that could be affecting immune system performance or energy levels). As I explained the multivitamin can contain NAC or I can take extra NAC. NAC is not necessary all the time in my experience but really good if someone is having sleeping or breathing difficulties due to too much mucus.
- A fish oil with extra vitamin D.
- Blueberries and/or pterostilbene for inflammation reduction. I'd previously taken ginkgo but there were some side effects. I liked it thought and it might still be a good idea for some.

[nathan123]

Update on my status:

I agreed the Herman Copper toxicity theory and about to start the vitamins and minerals that he is suggested and consulted my doctor.  My doctor also quite impressed by his theory and he suggested me to undergone, Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis.  He told that it is the most accurate test to determine imbalance in minerals in the body tissues.  I ordered this Test and gave my sample hair.  It will take around one month for the report in our area. 

I also advised each and every one to do this analysis before starting any vitamin & mineral supplements. 

Hi Nathan,
What country are you from?

From India. May I know the reason for asked.

[nathan123]

Hi, I made some reasearch on Copper Toxicity theory as explained by the Herman.  It means accumulation of excess copper in the tissues of the body such as liver, brain, other tissues.  This condition is due to some gene is called as Wilsons disease.  further there is a chance of accumulation by its own not having its gene. 

Diagnosis for this condition is 24 hours urine copper test.  However this test is not accurate.  the best test for this is Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis.   Has some one has done this test.  If yes what is the results

[kurtosis]

Update on my status:

I agreed the Herman Copper toxicity theory and about to start the vitamins and minerals that he is suggested and consulted my doctor.  My doctor also quite impressed by his theory and he suggested me to undergone, Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis.  He told that it is the most accurate test to determine imbalance in minerals in the body tissues.  I ordered this Test and gave my sample hair.  It will take around one month for the report in our area. 

I also advised each and every one to do this analysis before starting any vitamin & mineral supplements. 

Hi Nathan,
What country are you from?

From India. May I know the reason for asked.

It's just that some of the treatments that you mention are quite exotic. For instance gold is an Ayurvedic treatment, as you know.  They wouldn't be the norm in Ireland or the UK even if someone presented with a strange illness.
That is why I asked but I remember you told us you were from India before so apologies for asking again.

[kurtosis]

By the way, here's a paper about flunarizine/sibelium. Not everyone suffers from weight gain and in some it may be as a result of normalised appetite.

http://sibelium.kydev.net/sibelium/WX/fulltext_WX3/1/Flunarizine,%20a%20Calcium%20Channel%20Blocker%20a%20New%20Prophylactic%20Drug%20in%20Migraine.pdf

I don't think that other POIS sufferers should necessarily write off this drug because they're afraid of huge weight gains My doctor suggested getting more exercise when trying ketotifen for instance as it's a known effect of this drug. You sometimes see comments on weightlifting forums about people using it to reduce inflammation while stimulating appetite.

[nathan123]

Update on my status:

I agreed the Herman Copper toxicity theory and about to start the vitamins and minerals that he is suggested and consulted my doctor.  My doctor also quite impressed by his theory and he suggested me to undergone, Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis.  He told that it is the most accurate test to determine imbalance in minerals in the body tissues.  I ordered this Test and gave my sample hair.  It will take around one month for the report in our area. 

I also advised each and every one to do this analysis before starting any vitamin & mineral supplements. 

Hi Nathan,
What country are you from?

From India. May I know the reason for asked.

It's just that some of the treatments that you mention are quite exotic. For instance gold is an Ayurvedic treatment, as you know.  They wouldn't be the norm in Ireland or the UK even if someone presented with a strange illness.
That is why I asked but I remember you told us you were from India before so apologies for asking again.

You are right, I am finding many exotic treatment to cure my POIS and to give solution to all.  It has been my daily routine basis to find out POIS treatments, experiments and one day I am sure that I will succeed in it.  Another interesting fact to reduce POIS symtoms by way of Apple Cider Vinegar.  Really it is working from the past one month just to reduce the POIS symotms but not prevent. 

Step 1:  Take Apple Cider vinegar
Step 2: Put approximately 300 ml of water in a bowl and make it boiling
Step 3: for boiling water, insert 2 to 3 Tea spoon of Apple cider vinegar
Step 4: put a towel accross the face and take steam of this for 15 minutes and see the result. Approximately 50 to 70% cognitive symtoms will be disappeared.  Really its working.  It is very cheaper to try and there is no side effects.  Also post your results. 

[Gbolduev]

Nathan,   

Malic acid  or  aaple cider vinegar  is good,   I recommended it  to almost everyone  who I recieved the tests from.    It seems to increase TSH .  And it rotates the ATP pump.

[Gbolduev]

Nathan,

If you did the hair analysis , that is excellent.   I told  everyone to  get on Nutritional balancing program with ARL,
But  hair  analysis wont tell you the levels  of  metals, like copper or zinc or magnanese or  chromium or any other  metal but electrolytes( sodium , calcium , magnesium and pottasium)/  You just have to know how to read it properly/    Copper does not build up in hair at all.  And you have to read the  metabolism  from  hair, not the stupid levels, since  levels are not relevant at all.  SO if you  are doing this in  india, I think  it is a waste of  time, since I bet they wash  your hair, and  hair has pourous structure and should not be washed
I developed this system of  blood tests that I have been   asking for  which  so far matched the best hair analysis  results.  I still think hair analysis is the best test but only in certain labs  /Your copper imbalance is  a collaboration  of  many factors,   and you are trying to find  one solution/   According  to what I  saw you have low thyroid. 

[urano75]

Hi,
I'm new to this group and found it while googling around about problems I can't really find and answer and a solution to...
Maybe I'm writing things that have been discussed again and again here, but it's too long to read 6 years of posts and I hope finding some hints to go ahead based on current information.

I'm a 38 years old guy from Italy.

The specific problem is that after an orgasm I have the following symptoms aggravated for a couple of days: muscular/joints/back weakness and pains, light headed, lack of initiative, sense of void in the lower abdomen, sore throat (possibly allergy or increased probability to catch a virus), can hardly get out of bed the morning after and dragging myself the day after, feeling cold.

I say "aggravated" because most of this symptoms are already present to a smaller degree far from sexual activity, as I'm currently dealing with problems of adrenal fatigue and hormone thyroid resistance at tissues level (hypothiroidism). I also have a history of depression, for 2 years now under control with no use of antidepressants (Prozac), which I unfortunately have used for 11 years . Hypoadrenia/Hypothyoridism give me CFS/Fybromyalgia like symptoms. An orgasm just seems to make this much worse for at least a couple of days, the day after being the worst.

I am currently following a protocol with T3 thyroid hormone called CT3M (T3 cyrcadian method), pregnenolone, adaptogenic herbs, lots of supplements (vitamins, minerals, aminoes...).

Is anyone experiencing an aggravation of Adrenal Fatigue symptoms after sexual activity?

My sex hormones have always been OK (total/free testosterone, SHGB, estradiol, progesterone).
My prolactin was in range last labs.
Currently the main lab issue is low salivar DHEA, cortisol is almost normal but could ideally be a little higher.

I believe this is somehow related to a dopamine depletion, I take some DLPA for it (tryied L-Tyrosine in the past) but it doesn't make a big difference.
I'm going to try Mucuna Pruriens (L-DOPA) to see if that helps.

In Chinese Traditional Medicine post-sex fatigue is related to kidney weakness, so again adrenals.
I get some acupuncture sessions to work on kidneys points.

I try not to have sex more often than once a week and the symptoms occur nonetheless, clearly this is not normal for a 38 years old guy, and this has been happening for years now.

Essentially I must pay attention not to become exhausted in many ways to avoid crashes and infections (physical exercise, sauna, sleep), but sex is clearly one of the most depleting factors.

When I am low energy obviously sex drive is not on top of my thoughts. But as soon as I have some energy libido increases and creates a kind of tension that calls for being released. This currently might happen once a week, but it changes depending on the general condition. Unfortunately that also causes the side effects I described in the post and brins me again to ground zero for awhile.

I've also tried semen retention techniques but stopped them, both because they actually didn't help much (it seems that orgasm and not ejaculation aggravate symptoms), and because I felt they were a bit unnatural and possibly unhealthy.

I think a low after sex is normal and natural, but not when it is so much. It's likely that people with adrenal weakness suffer of this more than average.

I've come across here now searching for some fresh ideas, if someone in similar conditions has a similar situation and can share their experience and give any hints.

I know there are theories about hormonal imbalances and allergies related to POIS, I'd like to explore new possibilities to feel better and solve this annoying problem.

I don't know if my scenario falls into a form of POIS, whatever it is, but I feel I can find some ideas here beyond the labels.

Thanks for your attention.
Andrea

[romies]

urano75/Andrea,

Welcome on board. I had some similar symptoms that point towards excessive histamine. Here are some reading that may be of some use to you.

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5614;sa=showPosts [nofollow]

Good luck.

[urano75]

urano75/Andrea,

Welcome on board. I had some similar symptoms that point towards excessive histamine. Here are some reading that may be of some use to you.

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5614;sa=showPosts

Good luck.

Hi Romies,

thank you for your feedback and info.

I might well suffer from excessive histamine, having allergies started exactly since puberty (pollens, molds,...).
Also my depressive symptoms started around that age, as far as I can remember.
So fatigue, depression and allergy could be well related. Time, stress and infections could have just taxed weak adrenals until they crashed, and thyroid suffered of that. Insufficient cortisol leads to be overreactive and inflammatory. This is a likely connection. It's just difficult to say what started it all and how to break the circle now.

I didn't know that high histamine could be related to post-orgasm symptoms, I'll read the posts carefully but at a first glance I still have to understand this relationship. I see it's a complex matter. I see that much is told about methylation, this is not something I've explored very much. Is high histamine always a methylation problem?

I take lots of supplements, among these a good Thorne Basics B-complex, extra P5P and Niacin, Vit C, NAC, MSM, Betaine HCL, magnesium, zinc.... they all should affect methylation in some way and eventually neurotransmitters production (serotonine, dopamine, noradrenaline). I also take quercetine, nettle root extract and when needed antihistamines (fexofenadine) when allergy is too annoying. I've taken methionine, SAM-e and TMG in the past, but didn't make a difference with this specific problem.

Actually I would not know from where to start (or restart).

What symptoms (yours, mine) do you mean that point to excessive histamine?
How did you understand that excessive histamine was the main issue for you?
Have you tried or found any supplements or meds (like antihistamines) helping you with that, and specifically with POIS symptoms?
Are there other current theories besides histamine/methylation issues worth being considered and explored?

Thanks.
Andrea

[romies]

Andrea,

I have two previous posts on my symptoms and current regimen (thanks to earlier efforts from Kurtosis):
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg405313#msg405313 [nofollow]

The cognitive effect seems to be caused by mostly histamine (+ suspected ammonia excess in blood)

I was previously on daily omeprazole and cetirizine for 6+ years, due to heart burn and nasal allergy (dust-mite) during sleep.
I don't need neither of these two medicine now, after taking Thorne methyl-guard (2 cap per day). I hypothesized my histamine level is being greatly reduced from this change.

Kurtosis had a post explaining what histamine can do to you
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=782.5;wap2 [nofollow]

Niacin reduces methylation and methylfolate/methyl-B12 increases methylation.

Your supplement regimen seems very complex...

I found my regimen by trial-and-error from Kurtosis' regime + my 23andme.com genetic testing result. More data is usually always better.

There are many theories at poiscenter.com . It will be helpful to read those post. I spent days combing through all the posts there from july2012 through jan 2013.

-R

[Nightingale]

Hi urano75,

It does sound like you have POIS.  POIS is a strange thing, it can occur immediately with the onset of puberty (like for myself) or later in life ( like it seems for you).  I can tell immediately that you have been through a rough time.  Know that you are not alone in dealing with the symptoms of this and the depression it can often bring.  I have had a life-altering battle with it, but things changed a lot for me after finding this community.

I hope you can find some relief   I didn't quite catch, have you tried to induce a niacin flush before orgasm?  That's usually effective in reducing symptoms, and has helped me regain my sanity!

Welcome

[urano75]

Hi Romies,

have you ever assessed you adrenals status via a salivar test?
Low cortisol might be an issue, and you might eventually have inflammatory, allergic and (reactive) hypoglycemia if you have not enough cortisol around.
Maybe worth checking if your cortisol/DHEA/aldosterone are right.
Probably high histamine contributes to an inflammatory state that uses up cortisol. Allergies, as infections, can be hard on adrenals. Food allergies (gluten, casein) might be an issue as well.

It's also a good idea to check how is your thyroid, it can be stressed by weak adrenals.

Given my history (depression, allergies) I might think I'm undermethylating, is this assumption reasonable. SAM-e used to give me a temporary lift with depression when I was off SSRI, but clearly was not enough. Neither TMG or methionine. But I used them long time ago, maybe it would be different now.
However I see that much people benefit from using Niacin-NAD before O, which you say slows down methylation.
Niacin/NAD is already in my B-complex (together with p5p, methylfolate, methylcobalamine among the rest), but I used to take 500mg Niacin in addition to it awhile ago, on full stomach to avoid big flushes. I've never used Niacin on purpose before O to limit POIS symptoms, I could try that but, was wondering: is it a good idea to supplement Niacin-NAD if one suspects to be undermethylating (based on symptoms, it might be a wrong assumption of course)?

Right, my supplementation regimen is complex, and I've only written part of it. My history is complex as well, supplementation and hormonal support have helped with many things but not really much with POIS symptoms. The more you feel better on the average, the more you realize how you feel miserable after sex.

I'll read the posts carefully to get more ideas, it is a bit disorienting at the beginning but I'll catch up :-)

Thank you,
Andrea

[urano75]

Hi Nightingale,

thank you :-)
Yes I think I have POIS symptoms. Not sure if we can consider POIS a sickness in itself, it might be an aspect of adrenals, thyroid, inflammatory, immune or methylation issues, as also CFS, fybromyalgia and depression probably are.... so many labels, and possibly few underlying causes and mechanisms.
Whatever it is, it's a big nuisance...
About niacin, see my previous post: never used it for this purpose, nor I knew it could help. But used it nonetheless as part of a supplementation program.
Does it work for you? In what sense does it help you?
How much do you take, and how long before sex?
Do you take Niacin or NAD?
Are you aware of methylation or histamine issues, as far as you could investigate?

Many thanks!
Andrea