[urano75]

For those who have flu-like symptoms 1-2 days after an O like me.

Are you able to determine if they are a consequence of a real viral infection (flu-like), even with no fever?
In other words, is it possible that for some people immune system is somehow temporary weakened after an O and this eventually "opens the gates" to infections?
This is pretty much my feeling, but it could obviously be hardly proved and verified. I know that most of my clear infective episodes (generally viral at the beginning, bacterial eventually) are initiated or aggravated by sexual activity. It's been like this for 20 years. I feel that my POIS symptoms are like small viral infections resolved in 2-3 days, and reoccurring at the next episode.

Alternatively, immune system has in my case an inflammatory response which makes my muscles sore and weak (exactly like flu does) even though there is no virus around, which can be of allergic or autoimmune nature.

Not sure if it can make a difference practically speaking, but was curious if anyone ever had the same thoughts...

[Vincent M]

Excellent report of your past and current treatments, urano.

There's been a lot of discussion over the years here about possible causes of POIS including bacterial/viral or autoimmune causes. The way I see it there probably isn't one root cause that's the same for everyone. Hypothetically one person could have a nutritional deficiency or imbalance that lead to an imbalance in hormones which then somehow caused POIS. Another might have been sensitive to an environmental pollutant which damaged their immune system causing an abnormal autoimmune response to some component of semen. There's a lot of different possibilities.

For myself I'm fairly certain I have a lot of inflammation or nerve sensitivity after an O, but I'm not sure what could be causing that. Also since I feel better with drugs that work on gaba and dopamine receptors it could be some sort of neurotransmitter depletion. For all I know just the quantity of semen I'm ejaculating could be draining nutrients or energy from elsewhere in my body.

But I don't think of my symptoms as flu-like since during a flu all I get is nausea, which I never get from POIS.

[urano75]

Excellent report of your past and current treatments, urano.

There's been a lot of discussion over the years here about possible causes of POIS including bacterial/viral or autoimmune causes. The way I see it there probably isn't one root cause that's the same for everyone. Hypothetically one person could have a nutritional deficiency or imbalance that lead to an imbalance in hormones which then somehow caused POIS. Another might have been sensitive to an environmental pollutant which damaged their immune system causing an abnormal autoimmune response to some component of semen. There's a lot of different possibilities.

For myself I'm fairly certain I have a lot of inflammation or nerve sensitivity after an O, but I'm not sure what could be causing that. Also since I feel better with drugs that work on gaba and dopamine receptors it could be some sort of neurotransmitter depletion. For all I know just the quantity of semen I'm ejaculating could be draining nutrients or energy from elsewhere in my body.

But I don't think of my symptoms as flu-like since during a flu all I get is nausea, which I never get from POIS.

Vincent M, I could add more cofactors to the mentioned ones: chronic inflammation, Lyme disease, heavy metals poisoning, leaky gut syndrome, candida/yeast infections, EMF sensitiviness.... possibly this is the top of many different icebergs.

As to me:

I know I have adrenals and secondarily thyroid issues --> work in progress
I know I had a poor gut status 2 years ago (disbiosis, yeast, mold) --> cleared and under control
I know I had nutritional deficiencies, and likely malabsorption (I'm way too skinny) --> after 2 years of heavy and full supplementation that shouldn't be the main issue
I know have frequent viral infections, initiated or augmented by sexual acrivity --> current
I know I have dopamine depletion feelings after O. This, together with allergies and the fact I responded well to SSRI, probably places me in the category of undermethylators --> partially worked on this, but not systematically enough
I know I'm in need of chelating toxic elements (fluoride, arsenic) --> work in progress
...
Unfortunately there are so many things I don't know and have not had a chance to work on yet...
I do hope I'm among the ones who can benefit from niacin. I can't try it right now, still down from previous O...

Has anyone with autoimmune indicators tried LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone)?

[romies]

For those who have flu-like symptoms 1-2 days after an O like me.

Are you able to determine if they are a consequence of a real viral infection (flu-like), even with no fever?
In other words, is it possible that for some people immune system is somehow temporary weakened after an O and this eventually "opens the gates" to infections?
This is pretty much my feeling, but it could obviously be hardly proved and verified. I know that most of my clear infective episodes (generally viral at the beginning, bacterial eventually) are initiated or aggravated by sexual activity. It's been like this for 20 years. I feel that my POIS symptoms are like small viral infections resolved in 2-3 days, and reoccurring at the next episode.

Alternatively, immune system has in my case an inflammatory response which makes my muscles sore and weak (exactly like flu does) even though there is no virus around, which can be of allergic or autoimmune nature.

The flu-symptoms after an O when I was 17-21 were quite severe. It typically started with sore throat (24 hrs after an O). 50% of time it progressed to bronchitis or pneumonia (in 3-4 days), which took about 2-3 weeks to recover. These 50% severe cases usually result from multiple O's within a day or two. My hormone was raging as in the case of any teenager.

I am fairly certain in the first few days of flu-like symptoms, the infection is viral (no mucus, only dry cough, and not responding to antibiotics). It usually progress to bacterial infection after a week (lots of mucus, and responding to antibiotics very quickly).

One reason that I no longer progress into a full-blown viral/bacterial infection any more is that my weight is now normal. I was very skinny between 17-21, but had gained about 40lbs in my early 20s and those bronchitis/pneumonia stopped at that time.

I do think that my immune system is suppressed after an O for an unknown reason, in addition to the inflamation.

[meteo74]

yes,urano75

for me thats true, my immune system is weakened after O, and I suffer from symptoms of flu-like.... and i treat my self with Antibiotic.
//you talk about me //

[urano75]

For those who have flu-like symptoms 1-2 days after an O like me.

Are you able to determine if they are a consequence of a real viral infection (flu-like), even with no fever?
In other words, is it possible that for some people immune system is somehow temporary weakened after an O and this eventually "opens the gates" to infections?
This is pretty much my feeling, but it could obviously be hardly proved and verified. I know that most of my clear infective episodes (generally viral at the beginning, bacterial eventually) are initiated or aggravated by sexual activity. It's been like this for 20 years. I feel that my POIS symptoms are like small viral infections resolved in 2-3 days, and reoccurring at the next episode.

Alternatively, immune system has in my case an inflammatory response which makes my muscles sore and weak (exactly like flu does) even though there is no virus around, which can be of allergic or autoimmune nature.

The flu-symptoms after an O when I was 17-21 were quite severe. It typically started with sore throat (24 hrs after an O). 50% of time it progressed to bronchitis or pneumonia (in 3-4 days), which took about 2-3 weeks to recover. These 50% severe cases usually result from multiple O's within a day or two. My hormone was raging as in the case of any teenager.

I am fairly certain in the first few days of flu-like symptoms, the infection is viral (no mucus, only dry cough, and not responding to antibiotics). It usually progress to bacterial infection after a week (lots of mucus, and responding to antibiotics very quickly).

One reason that I no longer progress into a full-blown viral/bacterial infection any more is that my weight is now normal. I was very skinny between 17-21, but had gained about 40lbs in my early 20s and those bronchitis/pneumonia stopped at that time.

I do think that my immune system is suppressed after an O for an unknown reason, in addition to the inflamation.

Romies, our respective scenarios look somewhat matching. For years I've been catching viral infections, which eventually paved the way to bacterial superinfections. I eventually passed so many winters with continued bacterial (e.g. strep) infections at the upper respiratory ways never resolved. One difference was that my infections became in time more kind of chronic low-grade rather than full-blown, with no fever but really dragging me down. I was reluctant to use antibiotics for them, as I would have fallen back in the same situation few weeks after and in the meantime I would have messed up my gut.

In the last 2 years, with all the things I'm doing and taking, it's become less frequent to catch bacterial infections, especially in a chronic way, but I get viruses nonetheless. I feel that most of the times they're responsible for my flu-like symptoms, but I can't rule out the symptoms sometimes occur independently.

I think this is somehow related to adrenal weakness again. It's possible that my adrenals can't temporarily cope with the stress caused by an O, and eventually the immune system is weakened for awhile, e.g. because there is not enough cortisol around. It's possible that adrenals are depleted both by some kind of inflammatory/allergic process right after O, as they try to calm down the inflammation releasing more cortisol; or that they suffer from a temporary dopamine depletion which, for some reason (e.g. undermethylation), is not rapidly replaced.

I mention adrenals again because I tend to have low cortisol signs after an O (low blood sugar, postural hypotension, temp drops) as I do after other too exhausting activities. But I think that adrenals in my case are just a link that has weakened after years of infections, inflammation, allergies etc, so it's possible there's some other issues behind/besides them to be addressed.

[urano75]

yes,urano75

for me thats true, my immune system is weakened after O, and I suffer from symptoms of flu-like.... and i treat my self with Antibiotic.
//you talk about me //

meteo74, if you respond consistently well to antibiotics, then you are regularly coping with bacterial infections, not viral. The problem with a regular use of antibiotics, as you will know, is that they cause dysbiosis and eventually candida/yeast/fungal infections in the gut, and further weaken the immune system, or expose to laky gut issues etc. So it's possible that you'll have to deal with these issues as well, and try to limit antibiotics to the strictly necessary, also to avoid developing resistant bacterial strains.
Alternatively to antibiotics, I sometimes use both colloidal silver and oil of oregano, maybe enough just gargling them for sore throat.

[romies]

Andrea, what you said makes sense. Here are some my experiences that may be helpful.

Romies, our respective scenarios look somewhat matching. For years I've been catching viral infections, which eventually paved the way to bacterial superinfections. I eventually passed so many winters with continued bacterial (e.g. strep) infections at the upper respiratory ways never resolved. One difference was that my infections became in time more kind of chronic low-grade rather than full-blown, with no fever but really dragging me down. I was reluctant to use antibiotics for them, as I would have fallen back in the same situation few weeks after and in the meantime I would have messed up my gut.

Antibiotics is hard on my gut too. But I am able to manage it with probiotics and lots of yogurt (3x my usually daily portion) starting 2-3 days after the beginning of the antibiotics treatment. I usually do probiotics and yogurt until a week after the completion of antibiotics. that way my guy problem is minimized.

Fortunately,  I only need to do this infrequently (~ once every other year) and now the causes for antibiotics is usually unrelated to POIS.

I think this is somehow related to adrenal weakness again. It's possible that my adrenals can't temporarily cope with the stress caused by an O, and eventually the immune system is weakened for awhile, e.g. because there is not enough cortisol around. It's possible that adrenals are depleted both by some kind of inflammatory/allergic process right after O, as they try to calm down the inflammation releasing more cortisol; or that they suffer from a temporary dopamine depletion which, for some reason (e.g. undermethylation), is not rapidly replaced.

I mention adrenals again because I tend to have low cortisol signs after an O (low blood sugar, postural hypotension, temp drops) as I do after other too exhausting activities. But I think that adrenals in my case are just a link that has weakened after years of infections, inflammation, allergies etc, so it's possible there's some other issues behind/besides them to be addressed.

There may be something else other than cortisol. Cortisol is a known immune suppressor: the more cortisol you have, the less active your immune system is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol [nofollow]
So I suspect something else is at play here.

[romies]

Again, here is my experience (high histamine, low dopamine, low serotonin person). Your mileage may vary.

- Has the mechanism of why niacin works for many with POIS symptoms been understood or at least guessed? What's the percentage of folks here which benefit from niacin, and what is likely to be their weak link?

Why exactly the flushing of niacin works is still unclear. Hypothesis involves Prostaglandin E2 generated during flushing.

Niacin/Niacinamide makes me worse: histamine will flare up (more heart burn, more nasal/eye allergy), probably because niacin soak up methyl group. Niacin does not help my POIS symptoms

- Specifically in my case, given my history of hypoadrenia, allergies and depression, it is likely I am high histamine, undermethylating and low dopamine/serotonin: is niacin supposed to help in this situation, or would it make it worse?

If we have similar histamine, dopamine, serotonin profile, my guess is that it will make you worse.

- Is it necessary to wait for a flush before O to make it effective, or is it only a signal to be sure that niacin has saturated? If the flush occurs in an unpredictable amount of time, or it never occurs as it happened yesterday, it might hard to manage, how to make it happen approximately at a wanted time?

This is a big problem with niacin flush method for me. My professional schedule does not allow me to fast for 4 hrs then wait for the flush before every O. too much overhead.

- Does regularly using a full complex of B vitamins as I do interfere with the effectiveness of niacin for preventing POIS symptoms?

Many thanks!
Andrea

I found my current POIS regimen only requires a few supplements -1hrs before an O, and a few supplements within +24hrs after an O. That's enough to relieve all symptoms.

I do adhere to a regular supplement regimen to improve my mental sharpness, but it does not help/hinder my POIS recovery.

[romies]

I know I have dopamine depletion feelings after O. This, together with allergies and the fact I responded well to SSRI, probably places me in the category of undermethylators --> partially worked on this, but not systematically enough

I was on 5-htp daily to help the low mood after an O for a few years. But now I resolved it, 5-htp makes me very sedated, probably because excess 5-HT is converted to serotonin. Just be aware that 5-htp can be detrimental when you find a good regimen to recover from POIS

I know I'm in need of chelating toxic elements (fluoride, arsenic) --> work in progress

How did you find out you have high arsenic/fluoride level? Serum/Urine test or something else?

I do hope I'm among the ones who can benefit from niacin. I can't try it right now, still down from previous O...

i've found NADH 10mg + methyl-b9,b12 + Ginkgo is probably the most helpful thing to pull me out of POIS, even when you are already stuck in it.

my current POIS regimen

Pre-O      methyl-guard 400mcg, VC, Claritin
(1hr or a few minutes before O)

Post-org   (Zinc, Mg, P5p)all in 1-2 ZMA capsules + Ginkgo

Midnight  methyl x 1 + NADHx 10mg
(when I wake up to use bathroom in the middle of night)

NADH is to help boosting Bh4 level, which is a co-factor to generate dopamine, since it is the rate limiting step to convert tyrosine to L-PODA, and to convert Phenylalanine to tyrosine.
BH4 also helps in generating serotonin, since it is also rate-limiting in the tryptophan-> 5-htp convertion.

All of these help to reduce histamine, increase dopamine and serotonin levels.
check your pm please.

[urano75]

There may be something else other than cortisol. Cortisol is a known immune suppressor: the more cortisol you have, the less active your immune system is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
So I suspect something else is at play here.

There is definitively something more than cortisol in play. However keep in mind that, while cortisol is antiinflammatory and an immunosoppressor, it is also required to get enough sugar and thyroid hormones in the cells and eventually produce energy. Enough cortisol is needed for any cells to function. Low cortisol is associated to allergies, inflammation, autoimmunity and immune dysfunction in general. It is known that people with adrenal fatigue/insufficiency are more prone to infections than people with normal adrenal function.

[urano75]

I was on 5-htp daily to help the low mood after an O for a few years. But now I resolved it, 5-htp makes me very sedated, probably because excess 5-HT is converted to serotonin. Just be aware that 5-htp can be detrimental when you find a good regimen to recover from POIS

When my serotonine was out of balance, and had to be corrected by SSRI, I was depressed, obsessive, inhibited, isolated, insecure. Now it's not the case anymore, even if I use small amounts of 5-HTP.
POIS gives me dopamine-deficiency symtpoms instead: fatigue, apathy...

I've sent you a pm about your regimen.

[kurtosis]

NADH 10mg + methyl-b9,b12 + Ginkgo

Yes, that's similar to what I took initially. I rarely take the NADH now but it definitely worked for me. We both have GCH1 mutations, as you pointed out so I believe we're benefitting from the NADH recycling BH4 from BH2.I If this is correct then nicotinamide riboside (in milk and will be available as a separate supplement sometime this year perhaps) would have a similar effect.

BTW here's an interesting paper on methyl-donor consumption during pregnancy. It appears to boost the child's intelligence. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22686384

[kurtosis]

Here's my detox profile from genetic genie. (new test). It's based on my 23andme raw data.


CYP1A1*2C A4889G   rs1048943   CT   +/-
CYP1A1 m3 T3205C   rs4986883   TT   -/-
CYP1A1 C2453A   rs1799814   GG   -/-
CYP1A2 164A>C   rs762551   AC   +/-
CYP1B1 L432V   rs1056836   CG   +/-
CYP1B1 N453S   rs1800440   TT   -/-
CYP1B1 R48G   rs10012   CG   +/-
CYP2A6*2 1799T>A   rs1801272   AA   -/-
CYP2A6*20   rs28399444   II   -/-
CYP2C9*2 C430T   rs1799853   CC   -/-
CYP2C9*3 A1075C   rs1057910   AA   -/-
CYP2C19*17   rs12248560   TT   +/+
CYP2D6 S486T   rs1135840   CG   +/-
CYP2D6 100C>T   rs1065852   AG   +/-
CYP2D6 2850C>T   rs16947   GG   -/-
CYP2E1*1B 9896C>G   rs2070676   CG   +/-
CYP2E1*1B 10023G>A   rs55897648   GG   -/-
CYP2E1*4 4768G>A   rs6413419   GG   -/-
CYP3A4*1B   rs2740574   TT   -/-
CYP3A4*2 S222P   rs55785340   AA   -/-
CYP3A4*3 M445T   rs4986910   AA   -/-
CYP3A4*16 T185S   rs12721627   GG   -/-
GSTP1 I105V   rs1695   AA   -/-
GSTP1 A114V   rs1138272   CC   -/-
SOD2 A16V   rs4880   AG   +/-
NAT1 R187Q   rs4986782   GG   -/-
NAT1 R64W   rs1805158   CC   -/-
NAT2 I114T   rs1801280   TT   -/-
NAT2 R197Q   rs1799930   AG   +/-
NAT2 G286E   rs1799931   GG   -/-
NAT2 R64Q   rs1801279   GG   -/-
NAT2 K268R   rs1208   AA   -/-

[GDRTW]

Well, I have been hesitant about posting this but since all this recent talk about serotonin and such. I have come across something that helps me tremendoulsy with my searing eye pain from POIS. The problem is it is illegal and obviously hazardous to your health. It is called ecstasy. MDMA acts as a releasing agent of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. MDMA increases oxytocin levels, which may strengthen the therapeutic alliance. I am not trying to sway anyone into going down this road as a cure of course, but trying to find a corralation to what could be potentially important components concerning specific targeted areas of the neurological system.

[Nightingale]

Here's my detox profile from genetic genie. (new test). It's based on my 23andme raw data.

What's a good resource to interpret these results?

[kurtosis]

Here's my detox profile from genetic genie. (new test). It's based on my 23andme raw data.

What's a good resource to interpret these results?

Unfortunately, the only resource is looking on snppedia.com for information about each mutation.

[urano75]

Folks, let me share what's going on with my niacin experiments.
I'm still using a batch of few-months-old 500mg full-flush niacin (Nicotinic Acid), while I'm waiting to receive fresh 100mg caspules.
It's been a couple of times that I wake-up early morning and, being sure this way that I've had enough fasting hours and I'm far from any other supplements, I take 500mg of that niacin and wait in bed for the flush to happen. Well, something very weak happens 30 mins after, but eventually I fall deeply asleep again. Then I wake up (later than usual) in the morning 2-3 hours after, and a small flush happens again as I take my supplements or eat something. In other words, I never get a full-blown flush this way, especially on empty stomach when it's supposed to happen.

500mg are quite a bit, and I'm using this big amount because it's not so fresh, the flush doesn't occur right away nonetheless.
Also, the fact that a small flush occurs few hours after when I eat something means that some of that niacin is still around, waiting to be fully metabolized, is my assumption wrong? As if niacin metabolization is somehow slowed down. Or is it normal this way?
Finally, I slept in and didn't wake-up very refreshed. Not so unusual for me, but something to be considered anyway.

I'll wait for the fresh batch and test with smaller doses, but does this all say anything to any of you?
Thanks,
Andrea

[kurtosis]

Interesting slideshow on excitotoxins, methylation, glutathione and glutamate.
http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/17-A1-Excitotoxins.pdf
Yasko seems to believe that glutamate imbalances cause seizures in autistic kids.
While I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims, there are some useful papers referenced and I do think there's something to the idea that methylation problems (and related like Vit D deficiency) lead to systemic diseases by preventing the body from balancing levels of amino acids (such as glutamic acid) and minerals (e.g. calcium)

She says that she's seen symptoms such as vision problems, migraines and tension, bladder problems and irritable bowel which reminds me of POIS as many sufferers have talked about similar symptoms.

[kurtosis]

Carnosine attenuates mast cell degranulation and histamine release induced by oxygen-glucose deprivation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18064721