[SteveD]

The point of this exposition is... if it is true that POIS is harmful to all of us, and if POIS has at least five stages, then perhaps stopping the illness at an earlier stage would be easier, more effective and could alleviate some of our very real suffering.
...Just a thought

Steve--I think you've made an interesting point about your POIS beginning with the "thought" of sex. Then the "thrill
of the thought," followed by the "ritual" (of masturbation OR possibly intercourse, too--why not include that?), and
then the genital contact, and then the actual orgasm with the "catastrophic collapse" of emotions--of hopelessness
and negativity and despair, etc. This is an insightful description.

The "desperately driven" feeling to have sex is one kind. But there's also another, which I prefer. I would describe it as a sleepy-relaxed-cuddly sexual feeling. Only after I feel completely relaxed, do the the sexual feelings begin to predominate, but the urge is not a driven feeling, but more like a sensual bonding feeling....
The only apprehension I've felt revolves around question-"how tired am I going to be, if I go through to the orgasm?" Though that is something I have now trained myself
(quite successfully) to avoid.

Girlwind,

My experience, like yours, is that there is a world of difference between the motivation of being 'desperately driven' and the 'sleepy-relaxed-cuddly feeling' and a desire for 'sensual bonding'. I believe that the type of sexuality you describe is what I would call 'healthy sexuality'.My experience though, which also sounds like yours, is that, as a Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome sufferer, I am going to suffer regardless of the purity of my motives or the healthiness of my choices, when I am orgasmic. Truthfully, I find that there is some amelioration due to intentionality, but not enough to counter the massive physical onslaught of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome.

Also, the issues and solutions surrounding 'desperately driven' sex are beyond the scope or purpose of this forum and I ain't touching that stuff with a 10 foot pole...

masturbation OR possibly intercourse, too--why not include that?

Okay...


In Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome I experience five distinct, and discreet, stages of diminution and debilitation, the intensity of debilitation increasing at each new added level of sexual engagement.

The first stage, for me, of experiencing Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome has been expressed most eloquently by my daughter, who I raised by myself, when she was 15 years old, in a sudden blurt, "Daddy, when you even think about dating, you change". The truth about this is that, for me, the difference between dating and friendship is the potentiality, under whatever future conditions are agreed upon (marriage, engagement, commitment, etc), that there will be the possibility of sex. When I am open to dating, or thoughts of dating, both neurochemical activities, there is an immediate change in me. At it's most subtle level I view the world differently. Instead of being here to serve others, or just laugh with others, I am now here also, in part, to take, no matter how maturely, fairly and lovingly…Since I don't masturbate, this attitudinal shift is, for me, and I repeat, for me, the beginning, root and genesis of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome . This illness is literally defined by orgasm, as a heart attack is delineated by infarction... but denying that there are precipitating steps, for me, is just madness.

Second stage, for me, is when I start actually dating. All the women in the world become potential partners and I begin ask questions like Is this person emotionally available, can she commit, does she like to be sexual,  how successfully can she interact with my daughter, does she take care of herself physically and fiscally, does she have a sense of humor, do I find her sexually attractive? Each question, with each woman, in each circumstance, is a new neurochemical change in my brain...

The third stage, for me, is when I am kissing, hugging, holding and caressing,. All behaviors that would cause me to feel aroused. Arousal is a key milestone in the ascension toward the anticlimax I will experience as a consequence of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. My body is physically changing and literally taking new shape. This is where behavior can become almost trance like for me (see posting on masturbation). My brain is awash in chemicals. It's neurochemically/physically like drinking a couple glasses of wine, for me.

The fourth stage is non-orgasmic genital contact. Manual, oral or penile vaginal sexuality. Here, there will be very significant mental losses in me as a result of this activity, but my life will not become unmanageable. I lose the sparkle, resilience, intuition, visions and personal power in relationships that make my life easier.

Finally, orgasmic sexuality, and the onslaught of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, and to quote the previous masturbation post, there will be" pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization, depression, self pity, negativity, hopelessness, disconnection, despair, rigidity, humorlessness, self-centeredness, attempts at control, demandingness and numbness.

An honest man asked me just tonight "Well then why don't you become a monk?"

I like Woody Allen's answer "I just get too lonely!"

[SteveD]

Been experimenting with my partner the last two days in rolling back engagement in my five POIS stages by surrendering:

stage four, non-orgasmic genital contact
stage three, no genital contact
...leaving us with stage two, just dating


It's funny, the non-socially-acceptable desires in me vanished and we began to have a greater hunger for each other personally, which she appreciated. Also, I was really able channel that energy to work better last night in the studio producing a young, new, very loud, artist. I saved him a lot of money, because of my efficiency, and did very well for myself at the same time, and got my drummer a 33% raise, which pleased him...Today, my partner and I were able to do twice as much yoga on a beautiful beach and she got some much needed extra sleep tonight. I'm going to keep experimenting because I'm liking the results for my health and finances and it's improving me as a partner.

[demografx]

Underwater, I woke up this morning and realized I misled you a 2nd time yesterday! You asked about prolactin/dopamine balancing. Yes, that was recommended by my Harvard biophysics friend and then discussed yesterday with my endo in the form of bromocriptine, which is a dopamine agonist that has successfully treated high prolactin levels.

The endo does not wish to go that route (it is NOT a benign drug) - for whatever reason - and am I ever grateful for that! Instead, he believes that stabilizing testosterone will reduce the prolactin.

We'll see after the March re-test.

[demografx]

As for these heart palpitations, after some quick googling, it seems high cortisol is a cheif cause of palpiations.  This is consisent with the theory that excessive cortisol is responsible in part for POIS.  But if cortisol is too high, blood pressure should also be elevated above normal, I think I'll start monitoring my blood pressure during POIS and after the symptoms pass.

Thanks, Pyro! This confirms that I did the right thing by pushing my endo to measure cortisol. I only want to "push" the endo when absolutely necessary: I want to bring out his genius more than mine []

And while I'm at it, thank you Counterpoints as well, for pushing the cortisol idea!

[underwater]

Demo
Thank You, Thank you for the clarifications--
I thought I was losing my memory and descending further into senility--

[underwater]

Pyro--
I also have palpitations during POIS. I have had Tinnitus my whole life and can hear heart beat in my ears/head--
This is increased during POIS--
I am expert in ignoring the whole thing. In fact I can take my pulse just listening.
I know I am alive. When I can't hear my pulse I am dead; fortunately, before I can confirm the "end", I rediscover the pulse, usually by the old wrist method--
My palpitations can flare up during anxiety/panic episode and may be exacerbated during POIS--I believe it's from up/down of our chemical imbalances---------

[demografx]

Hi all,
I'd like to share my input and experience here.

Hi, OmBass, welcome to The POIS thread of the Naked Science Forum.

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. MessageID: 149009
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video. A first!

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

[demografx]

Demo
Thank You, Thank you for the clarifications--
I thought I was losing my memory and descending further into senility--

Underwater, if you are, I'm right behind you!  []

[demografx]

I read that a possible side effect from your new treatment is gynecomastia.

I will buy a larger bra and compete with my wife. []

[martin88]

Demo, about occasional hostility, rage and even blind fanaticism when sexually abstinent, here is the best I can say that has been helpful:.........

Martin, perhaps you missed my point: I simply believe that sexual/orgasmic repression is unhealthy at some point. It is different for everyone. I don't wish to "fix" that, I simply will respect it. For me, that means to not be chaste beyond 6 weeks or so. I also don't believe that is abnormal; just the opposite: it proves that we are sexually expressive beings! Suppresssion of natural desires can make one become ill (e.g., hostile, aggressive, depressed, etc.). For example, and I know this is very controversial, but I believe that the problem shows very clearly in some (but not all!) celibate clergy. I'm absolutely sure not everyone agrees with me. []

My goal is to have this regularity you're talking about.
 
Intentionally I didn't use the word "you" in my post: perhaps what I wrote will be useful for other people who want to be sexually abstinent because they are viewing this as a "repairing" process to be able to have orgasms without pois in the future. It's very hard to say if abstinence is unhealthy or not, I think it depends the case.

Perhaps domestication is responsible for elevated sexual frequency in humans, this was mentionned in a study done with animals. If you look at nature, animals have sex but not during the whole year (with exceptions). (Total abstinence is definitely not the solution)

[demografx]

========================================
OUR POIS FORUM HAS NOW EXCEEDED 200,000 SITE VIEWS!
========================================

[martin88]

Girlwind, about the brand Flora you mention: I always feel a clear effect with their products.

To the other who mention palpitations/panic attacks :
Beyond other I took a Hawthorn tea from this company for palpitations in pois. Very effective. I was taking the smallest efficient dose I could to keep the effect when really needed. Also suppressing wheat for one year cured my panic attacks (with palpitations and other symptoms.)

[martin88]

One could go crazy trying to "play doctor" when one is not a doctor.

We are on a forum about medicine, and nobody is a doctor here. Personally I'm not playing, I'm just trying to rule out by myself-with your help guys!-what my MDs couldn't find. Medicine is not an exact science. Even your endo said that your precedent MD gave you the bad type of testosterone..

My input to him will be extremely selective.

I agree with you, I had the same experience. It's always possible to do the test for estrogen beside to dismiss this possibility for our personal research.

[demografx]

Routines and patterns

Looking back, I find that my POIS has been least significant when I am deeply involved in several routines:
1) Time intervals between orgasms are almost identical (e.g. hypothetically: 1 every 3 days at 10 pm)
2) Time intervals between meals are the same, and the same number of meals a day.
3) Waking up and going to sleep happens at the same times every day
4) Routines such as exercise take place every day, and at the same times

Has anyone else found this?

If this is true, I'm in trouble: my patterns are very erratic. I avoid routines like the plague. Not saying it's smart, it's just my personality.

[demografx]

It's very hard to say if abstinence is unhealthy or not, I think it depends the case.

Hi again, Martin. As I mentioned earlier, I think abstinence is eventually unhealthy for everyone. We are sexual beings. The length of time abstinent is the only variable.

Just my opinion.

[demografx]

We are on a forum about medicine, and nobody is a doctor here.

True, Martin. But to clarify what I meant, I think we are forced to play doctor because POIS is so undefined by the medical and therapeutic worlds that we need to make "medical" decisions only by ourselves if we want to improve. For example, the "self-medication" experiments of garlic, Fenugreek and Relora.

Medicine is not an exact science. Even your endo said that your precedent MD gave you the bad type of testosterone.

Yes. I agree with you completely.

It's always possible to do the test for estrogen beside to dismiss this possibility for our personal research.

Martin, my tendency right now is to just follow the endo's suggestions, giving him reasonable input, and then only in crucial areas. Sure, I'd like to try other things but if I do that without telling him it defeats the purpose: which is to see if this endo can provide a major POIS breakthrough for me.

For me, this whole process is already very ambitious on my part. Unless I see something seriously wrong, I will take this path to its logical conclusion.

For example, I mentioned to him additional areas of investigation, including thyroid, cortisol, Fenugreek and Relora. Cortisol is the only one he accepted. For now.

Five years from now, I might look back and say this whole exercise was wrong. But I don't yet have evidence to change anything. If I do, I'm distrusting him and I should go find another partner.

It's tricky for me, Martin. But as moderator here, I want to encourage ALL types of reasonable exploration (as long as it doesn't involve injecting Oxytocin!!  [])

[demografx]

ACKNOWLEDGING GIRLWIND'S HELP WITH MY FIRST ENDO VISIT:

UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST

My appointment today went well, it exceeded my expectations. Thanks to everyone for their well wishes and especially to Girlwind for her advice on my preparation, which came in very handy.

I also agree with Girlwind's premise that someone can have fantastic, impeccable medical credentials, but what kind of human being is s/he? As it turned out, I lucked out in both departments (as far as first impressions go, of course). We also had a few things in common, which helped the "schmoozing" factor.

He took a definite interest in Dr Waldinger's POIS study (I handed him a copy) and also our POIS forum and its hard experiences. That was greatly encouraging. But keep in mind that my primary objective was to get his help - for me - as a patient, and then, only if comfortable, to see what I can pursue to possibly get his help for the forum, if and as the relationship progresses. The two objectives intermingled nicely this afternoon.

He was comfortable with the concept of POIS and the medical/therapeutic fools that I - and other forum members - had to suffer over the years. He asked questions about my sexual history, medical history, POIS history, lab tests (I brought him standard lab results and a typed list of meds which Girlwind suggested. I even impressed the nurse!). He asked about the forum's POIS experiences with masturbation vs. intercourse. I said there was no difference that I could see. He wanted to know if there was "a female variable" for men []. I added that NE also causes POIS. Again, the prime focus was my symptoms, not the forum's, so I didn't go into NE differences, such as John21 reports (better garlic results). I mentioned theories regarding oxytocin, cortisol, nitrous oxide, prolactin and "more". I also mentioned experiments with Levitra, relora, fenugreek, maca, and "more". At this point he was more interested in getting on with the labwork, as Girlwind warned. So I didn't scream theories and experiments at him even louder [].

OK.....For a POIS forum research study: he suggested I contact his colleague, with permission to use his good name, and he gave me his colleague's email address and directline phone! I asked if his colleague could help find funding. He quickly said to me:

"He gets grants." (in an emphatic inflection that implied 'yes, bigtime')

Very nice! I will contact his colleague asap.

To give you an idea of their size, just one of their medical research facilities is a fairly new $1.5 billion complex.

A question for us from the Dr.: "Does anyone have experience with tricyclic antidepressants, such as Tofranil, and POIS?"

He also wished to convey to the forum that beta-blockers may help POIS, but can also cause ED.

Blood tests were immediately ordered this afternoon, and will include most of everything that we discussed here, DHEA-S, Cortisol, Free Testosterone, Prolactin, Thyroid (most of Girlwind's, Counterpoints and B_Jim's list), and others. If it's not 100% comprehensive, I'm not concerned right now. I just want to see how he operates.

Hypogonadism was placed in the chart as an initial blood-test study for the lab technicians (I didn't see POIS on the forms []). Results this Thursday, with follow up discussion the same day on the phone.

Well, as usual, I make no promises. To me or you. All I can do is try! Thanks again, everyone. The forum strengthened my ability to have a more successful POIS doctor visit than ever before.

[Counterpoints]

Routines and patterns

Looking back, I find that my POIS has been least significant when I am deeply involved in several routines:
1) Time intervals between orgasms are almost identical (e.g. hypothetically: 1 every 3 days at 10 pm)
2) Time intervals between meals are the same, and the same number of meals a day.
3) Waking up and going to sleep happens at the same times every day
4) Routines such as exercise take place every day, and at the same times

Has anyone else found this?

If this is true, I'm in trouble: my patterns are very erratic. I avoid routines like the plague. Not saying it's smart, it's just my personality.

Me too! If left to myself, I am totally undisciplined.  But when I am forced into routines -- work, school, etc. -- I often start to feel better.  So I'm trying to force some routines on myself.

[demografx]

If left to myself, I am totally undisciplined.  But when I am forced into routines -- work, school, etc. -- I often start to feel better.  So I'm trying to force some routines on myself.

Oh allright then, you're shaming me into trying <grumble>   

[]

[pyropeach]

Routines and patterns

Looking back, I find that my POIS has been least significant when I am deeply involved in several routines:
1) Time intervals between orgasms are almost identical (e.g. hypothetically: 1 every 3 days at 10 pm)
2) Time intervals between meals are the same, and the same number of meals a day.
3) Waking up and going to sleep happens at the same times every day
4) Routines such as exercise take place every day, and at the same times

Has anyone else found this?

If this is true, I'm in trouble: my patterns are very erratic. I avoid routines like the plague. Not saying it's smart, it's just my personality.

Same here, in fact when I don't have to submit to routine and I don't have to work within a timed schedule with godforsaken deadlines, its much easier to bear POIS, obviously because there's alot less stress.  Of course the lack of cognition and the brain fog is still there, which is the most horrible part of this illness, at least for me.