[demografx]

OXYTOCIN

If oxytocin continues to be a potential link to POIS, it is available in very potent forms, including injectable.

I think going far with high dose oxytocin testing as a direct cure for POIS should involve a physician with credentials such as those of Dr. Waldinger, Dr. Schweitzer, or the one that Counterpoints is in touch with (all 3 physicians have a strong understanding of POIS and sexual dysfunction treatment experience).

Hopefully, we can continue to find low risk avenues for effective POIS treatment!

[John21 (OP)]

Demografx,

Just thought I'd pass this on to let you know that your pharmacy might be able to easily check your regular Rx meds regimen against Fenugreek...and other homeopathic remedies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Fenugreek would be termed a homeopathic remedy. Do you mean herbal?

[demografx]

Demografx,

Just thought I'd pass this on to let you know that your pharmacy might be able to easily check your regular Rx meds regimen against Fenugreek...and other homeopathic remedies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Fenugreek would be termed a homeopathic remedy. Do you mean herbal?

John, yes, I was waiting for someone to correct me [].
Thank you.

[demografx]

JOHN21

John, it's now over one year and eight months since you started this Forum by being the very first person to post your experience with POIS!

What a snowball it's been! I think we've progressed as fast and as far as a research organization with a real budget. We're all motivated by pain.

Thanks again.

[John21 (OP)]

Demografx, yes it's amazing how it has grown and continues to grow. Many thanks for your efforts, you are a very good hub for our wheel.  []

[Chewbacca]

(It's a long one, but I feel it this may be useful to some of ya'll) Cheers! -Chewbacca

So I went to the Traditional Chinese Medical Doctor today and I was pretty much blown away!! Apparently, every symptom that I have (which I listed below) is a result of one condition….Kidney Chi deficiency. Now… I don’t pretend to know if chi really exists, or if theory’s in TCM are accurate, but the fact that all these symptoms can be traced to one thing, that it is a well known condition in TCM, and that it is treatable with a high rate of success (doctor said I will be 95% recovered) says a lot. Actually, the fact that they have a cure and that it works makes me think TCM is a pretty valid form of medicine (yin-yang explanations and all) in general. After all, they have been at it for over two-thousand years and people keep coming back.

I asked the doctor about fenugreek and he didn’t seem to know what it was. However I think this is because in Chinese fenugreek is not fenugreek, it has three different names, ku dou, xiang cao, hu lu ba(which is Cantonese) – didn’t figure this one out until this afternoon. Other Names from different cultures include: Alhova, Bird's Foot, Greek Clover, Greek Hay, Methi, Trigonella, Trigonella foenum-graecum.

What is interesting is that in Chinese medicine fenugreek (or whatever you want to call it) is used for deficiencies of the kidney. This would mean that if you have certain kidney deficiencies like myself…and probably like some of my fellow POIS suffers then fenugreek is one possible remedy for that condition. Let me say that differently, fenugreek is one herb that TCM practitioners use to treat certain kidney deficiencies – which I have – which contribute to certain symptoms of POIS.

However, not everyone with POIS might have the same kidney deficency condition. In TCM there are a variety of conditions that have to do with kidney deficiencies with similar symptoms. In some of those conditions fenugreek is contraindicated. See http://alternativehealing.org/hu_lu_ba.htm [nofollow] at the bottom of the chart.

For this reason, if you want to take fenugreek as a cure for POIS, I suggest you see a  good doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine to determine which kind of kidney deficiency you might have…if indeed that is what ails you. For those who have had success with fenugreek, I also urge you to see a qualified doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine to monitor your condition, your progress, and to make sure all your other deficiencies/excesses are in harmony and balance.

By qualified I mean qualified. I’m not talking about the local acupuncturist or chi gong yoga instructor. I’m talking about a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine (5-7 years of training). Make sure they have a good deal of experience. Over 10 minimum is best if you can get it. 

Another interesting factoid about kidney deficiency….that’s right…sometimes it appears in people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). Sometimes it also appears in people with hypothyroidism.

However, imbalances can exist in multiple organ systems that all interact with each other. This means that there is no one cure for everyone since everyone might have different imbalances…though I believe POIS to be one of the various kinds of kidney deficiencies.

As for Levitra, its relationship to oxytocin, and how that interacts with the rest of the body…. I’m sure there is a relationship there. Actually, I asked the doctor what kidney chi deficiency meant in western terms and he said it meant I had low levels of the hormone Rennin (would be interesting to get this tested). I was just searching around and found an article about how rennin and oxytocin interact. But the whole damn body with its millions of processes, interactions and hormone relationships is too difficult to understand for me. I think the best approach is to go see a qualified doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. It would be interesting to see what other people report and if they have success. I will keep you all posted on mine. I feel that we all have the potential to be cured.
 
(symptoms I reported to the TCM Doctor)

Mental/emotional symptoms:
•   Low energy
•   Bouts of depression (during which eyes and parts of head feel cold)
•   Lack of joy
•   Difficulty focusing on and completing tasks – studying/writing papers ect.
•   Procrastination
•   Anxiety/worry
•   Social anxiety
(Have had most of these symptoms for many years ~ 13 years)
Sexual symptoms:
•   Low Libido
•   Premature ejaculation
•   Occasional erectile dysfunction
•   (POIS)After sex I feel very depressed and have low energy for about 2 weeks
•   (POIS)After sex my mind is foggy, unclear, can’t really focus (especially the next day)
•   (POIS)After sex I lack joy, spontaneity, creativity, humor and can’t really connect to people emotionally
•   Usually takes me about 2 1/2 weeks to get back to normal, sometimes 3 weeks

•   (spermatorrea) Recently, (about one month ago) for a period of two weeks it felt as if I had no control of my ejaculatory response and felt as if I were going to ejaculate randomly, even with no sexual stimulation or thoughts.
(Sexual symptoms became stronger after returning from a year of celibacy)
Physical symptoms:
•   Stomach is easily irritated
•   Occasional achy joints and pain: knees, ankles, wrists and hands
•   Tight muscles: neck, shoulders mid back. 
•   Sometimes it feels like I have to pee a lot

 

[demografx]

Chewbacca,

It was very interesting to read about your TCM adventure!

When I saw the word "chi" I winced. For many years I chased a set of Chinese "ancient truisms" brought to the West by author Mantak Chia, a Taoist Master, who posited that according to Chinese theory chi is lost by males through the ejaculatory release of sperm, actually loss of sexual energy or jingqi, which lead to POIS-like symptoms, all supposedly based on a set of Chinese discoveries/treatments going back thousands of years.

With great hopes of curing my POIS, for a long time I worked hard and finally succeeded at having orgasm without ejaculation. It didn't work at all.

I was relieved to see that this TCM kidney approach seems down to earth and is not based on semen loss! But I think more evidence - or at least hypotheticals - is needed for a POIS-kidney theory. On the surface, the chemistry surrounding orgasm makes more sense, at least to me.

Girlwind also experienced the same disappointment as me from the female side of chi/jingqi Chinese theory according to Chia and his teachings.

I was also elated, then ultimately disappointed after working with Korean practitioners and an exotic herbal and chi treatment system based on energy channels. I submitted to much herbal treatment, acupuncture, accupressure and painful massage with little result.

In both systems, there was "great recognition" of POIS symptoms, going back thousands of years. As we all know, most Western healthcare professionals have given us blank stares or worse, derision, about the mere existence of POIS. So it's very easy to get our hopes way up when someone seems to understand POIS!

The Eastern health approaches as a group do seem more understanding of our condition.

But it seems that your TCM people are validating what we found in Fenugreek, oxytocin, nitric oxide, Levitra, etc. so far.

Chewbacca, I don't wish to be negative, I just want to be realistic and careful in raising expectations because all of us have had high hopes that ultimately haven't panned out. It was Girlwind who first sounded that warning system here.

It seems that you may have found a piece of the puzzle. Maybe a very large piece. I really like the fact of understanding individuality and that there may in fact be a number of different POIS treatments...as there are a number of variations in POIS symptoms.

One thing you may want to question though is "the high success rate". I've heard that a number of times. What makes me now want to question is the fact that we know how rare POIS is! "Success" may include erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation and a host of other things, which do not prove relatable to the uniqueness of POIS.

Ask them how many actual POIS sufferers they treated.

I'm really hoping for the very best, for you and for everyone here.

Thank you again!

[girlwind]

I've been treating my kidney yin AND kidney yang deficiency for over two decades. I agree that the POIS
diagnosis rings true according to TCM, and that TCM practitioners are DEFINITELY MORE SYMPATHETIC towards what
we call POIS. However, having both CFS and POIS, I have found that treating this type of chronic deficient state is a lot
harder and takes considerably longer than it initially sounds. At least for me that has been true. I have made a HUGE
amount of progress alleviating much of the really debilitating exhaustion I had with CFS, using TCM; and when my CFS
is better my POIS is also better. But there was the missing piece--the THYROID--which TCM didn't ever acknowledge.

WHY is that?  I would think that any diagnosis that affects the adrenal energy (kidney yang) and the condition of "fluids"
in the body, (kidney yin), which vaguely includes hormones, would be more inclusive of the "master gland" that controls
the entire metabolism. Thyroid function, according to what I know about TCM, has been associated with the triple burner
meridian, but I have never had anyone even mention to me during a TCM diagnosis that they saw any problem with my
triple burner pulse. My thyroid, as a result, ended up omitted from the TCM healing agenda.

Finally now, SO MANY YEARS later, as I begin to address the thyroid with iodine foods and a selenium supplement, and
a goitrogen-free diet (NO soy, peanuts, cruciferous vegies, etc), I am feeling something begin to CLICK for me, that
never happened when I was working exclusively on the kidney yin and kidney yang deficiency.

As I continue to learn more about hormones, I see how complex they are, how they influence and affect each other,
how they affect not only our physical energy, but also our emotional well being. I will continue to use TCM, but I am
now adding naturopathic wisdom to my agenda, with a bit of western diagnostic testing. TCM IS A GREAT TOOL, but
unfortunately it has not been the end all and be all that I wanted it to be.

[demografx]

Thank you, girlwind, for posting. I know that you have much experience in this field. You've been through "trial by fire"!

[martin88]

B_Jim, I'm not against the oxytocin theory. I agree we can be deficient before orgasm. What I don't understand is the link between oxytocin and the fact that we are ok before orgasm and not after. Maybe we have just enough oxytocin to be ok but not enough to burn for orgasm ? I have to read about this, it's not very clear.

Whatever the efficient ingredient I'll give a try to fenugreek if it's not contraindicated for me.

Girlwind, I know this excellent feeling you mention about deception with MD! Really bad.. And he probably thinks he has helped you at least mentally. What is great is that you don't feel like that with the guy at your local food store. I'd like to be like you ! Often their products are very expensive for nothing !

Great post Chewbaca ! Thanks a lot for this information !
I hope he has a good treatment for you. Like me you have to wait a long time for complete recovery 2-3 weeks. I have a partial recovery after 4 days. It's like waiting for a train or a plane during 4 days, very annoying.

[longwalkhome]

I'm taking around four capsules of fenugreek on a daily basis now and I had sexual release twice since I started doing so. I wouldn't say that all of the symptoms are gone, but it's certainly done away with most of the brain fog for me. No more long term headaches or restlesness, either so far. I still feel relatively washed out the day after and have minor problems (gas and dry mouth), but so far I'd say that's neglectable compared to what I usually have to deal with.

I'm not entirely convinced that this isn't just a temporary effect or maybe not connected to fenugreek at all. So I'll just keep doing what I'm doing at the moment and come back to you all in a week or two to keep you posted. I also want to say thank you for all the hard work that's done on this message board - I never would have come up with any of your approaches to this condition by myself.

[girlwind]

When I saw the word "chi" I winced. For many years I chased a set of Chinese "ancient truisms" brought to the West by author Mantak Chia, a Taoist Master, who posited that according to Chinese theory chi is lost by males through the ejaculatory release of sperm, actually loss of sexual energy or jingqi, which lead to POIS-like symptoms, all supposedly based on a set of Chinese discoveries/treatments going back thousands of years.

With great hopes of curing my POIS, for a long time I worked hard and finally succeeded at having orgasm without ejaculation. It didn't work at all.

I was relieved to see that this TCM kidney approach seems down to earth and is not based on semen loss! But I think more evidence - or at least hypotheticals - is needed for a POIS-kidney theory. On the surface, the chemistry surrounding orgasm makes more sense, at least to me.

Girlwind also experienced the same disappointment as me from the female side of chi/jingqi Chinese theory according to Chia and his teachings.

Yes, attempting to control orgasm according to Matak Chia's work was completely ineffective for me. Though I do
believe that it is POSSIBLE to have this kind of mastery over one's bodily functions, the kind of commitment that it
takes is beyond what I am capable of or willing to attempt.

I once met, and had a Chi Kung treatment from, a Taoist master. And this guy was the REAL THING! He was a very
ordinary looking and unassuming Chinese man. But when he put his hands on your body, it felt like currents of
electricity were surging from him to you. It was more powerful than any acupuncture treatment I ever had! And the
effects lasted longer, though they were in no way a cure for my problems.

When I asked his wife (the Chinese Taoist master spoke no English), how in the world he could do that, she told me
he meditated 8 hours a day, and had been doing so for a couple decades. So there you have it. This is what it would
take to master the body. At that point, controlling an orgasm must be just as easy as tying your shoes.  []

[demografx]

I'm taking around four capsules of fenugreek on a daily basis now and I had sexual release twice since I started doing so. I wouldn't say that all of the symptoms are gone, but it's certainly done away with most of the brain fog for me. No more long term headaches or restlesness, either so far. I still feel relatively washed out the day after and have minor problems (gas and dry mouth), but so far I'd say that's neglectable compared to what I usually have to deal with.

I'm not entirely convinced that this isn't just a temporary effect or maybe not connected to fenugreek at all. So I'll just keep doing what I'm doing at the moment and come back to you all in a week or two to keep you posted. I also want to say thank you for all the hard work that's done on this message board - I never would have come up with any of your approaches to this condition by myself.

Thank you, longwalkhome! Can you say what the strength/dosage is of your fenugreek capsules?

Thank you for your cautious optimism. I'm glad that you don't jump immediately and say "it works!". I know I have been guilty of that!

Looking forward to your next post.

[demografx]

B_JIM

Thank you very much for the fenugreek summarization! I was hoping you would do that!

[Reater]

I'm 23 and i've had this problem for 5 years.  I believe it only started after i took anti-depressants (it was a tough time for me and the stress got to me).  I stopped anti depressants and recovered from the side effects of medication 3 years after (similar to the post-orgasmic syndrome symptoms, except it was caused completely by the medicines).  Now it is at the 5 years mark after stopping medicines, and I find that post-orgasm symptoms are tolerable if i only masturbate once a week.  But if I do it twice a day I become very tired.  3 or 4 times and I cannot move and will not go to do my work.  But after 5 times i feel really light headed and i feel like i have more energy back (5 times in 2 days i mean).  Probably because of the exercise & aerobic muscle movement required to achieve a fifth orgasm (the 5th masturbation session lasts longer than 30 minutes).

I believe we all need to try new things and tell others on this forum about our experience and what might work, since doctors are at a lack of explanations.  Results & observations should be posted here.

From experience, I find that eating foods like whole grains (not bread) and fruits & replacing the intense urge for sugar-packed meals after orgasm help stabilize the effects of symptoms a lot.  Protein helps if eaten on a regular basis, by 30%. 

I believe that this symptoms are related to hormones that affect or treat depression.  I also personally believe, but this last sentence is not justified... that these symptoms start as a result of not allowing the body to get back into an equilibrium state (heal back to normal state) after masturbating too much.  For example, if one time we masturbate 5 times a day and do this twice in a particular week, we don't allow our bodies to regulate itself back to original conditions.  I am trying to not masturbate for 3 months, hopefully it will fix me.  I have noticed excellent results after 2-3 weeks of abstaining before masturbating.  I also do not have wet dreams (only had it twice in two years!).

I also found that keeping my blood pumping or doing exercise IMMEDIATELY after orgasm PLUS keeping the mindset of a healthy and active person (at least pretend you are like that) will help me feel completely normal, but the longest I was able to maintain energy after an orgasm using this technique was 8 hours, after which I was not able to stay active or keep a positive attitute.  I am continuing to try anything I can to rid myself of these terrible symptoms.

Good luck everyone! I know this is a terrible condition to have but we must keep hope, and keep trying new things, for ourselves and so future victims will not have to suffer through what we did.

[Limejuice]

Hi,

I've just discovered this forum in my search for answers about this/my disease.  I'm 28 yrs old and have had POIS symptoms since puberty.  I've seen several doctors and specialists without any success.  Right now, I'm currently seeking Thyroid treatment as I've experimented with several other solutions that have failed.  I've thought that I was alone with POIS as no one has had any answers.  This thread has given me HOPE!  Thank you ALL for your research and information.  My syptoms are exactly what you guys said and I've never met anyone else who's experienced this.  It's exciting.

Only after ejaculating I get brain fog, lack interest in things I love (including people), tired, difficulties sleeping, short attention...and the syptoms go away slowly after a week.

I'm a religous person and always thought that obstaining from ejaculting was the only way to avoid this.

I'm really happy to know its not just me.  Thank you Everyone!

EDIT:  Things that help me cope with the 'low' are:

- Rigerous excersise reduces the recovery period
- Going to church and really trying to feel God's presence
- Concentrated fish oil

Also, is there a list of suppliments or techniques used to combat the side-effects?  Perhaps we should 'sticky' one somehow.

EDIT2: I also want to say that I've gone a period of 11 months without ejaculating.  I felt terrific!  Then once I did ejaculate the symptoms returned.

[Chewbacca]

I hear what you both are saying Demografx and Girlwind. After such a long trial with TCM I can see how if someone says TCM is the answer to POIS...it would be contrary to your experience. I just started treatment with the guy so perhaps I was a bit premature. Your experiences are definitely something I'm taking into consideration when I see this TCM doctor. I will experiment and see what he has to offer. Who knows

On a different note, I'm curious about the recent success that some of the forum members have had with fenugreek and with Relora as well. Since Hurray and Shahnamen have had huge success with fenugreek, what brand are you guys taking? Perhaps this is a variable we can control when others take it. If we are all taking the same brand(one that seemed to work for hurray or Shahnamen since they seem to have had the greatest success so far) we can eliminate variability in the prospective "treatment". Similarly if we all take the same dosage, this will help control the variability of treatment as well. But with everyone taking different doses and using different brand names controlling variables that influence a remedies effectiveness is kind of impossible. It is by no means the simple random double blind study that a researcher would do...but it seems like a good start for those that do take fenugreek to take the same brand and the same dose to see what kind of and effect this consistency has on our POIS. I like that B_Jim listed the doses different members are taking. Good Info.

Also, what brand of Relora are you taking Tarkington? It seems like your success has been phenomenal as well.

[John21 (OP)]

I have: Nature's Herbs Fenugreek Seeds (620mg).
"Recommended use: As a dietary supplement, take 1 capsule 2-3 times daily."

Again, I had taken 2 capsules before having an NE and didn't have POIS symptoms, but it may not have been the supplement as I am also consuming raw garlic which has helped me previously. But, I definitely felt the effect of fenugreek, perhaps I am just sensitive to it.

[demografx]

...Results & observations should be posted here...

Welcome, Reater, to The POIS Forum! And thank you for posting your experience! We look forward to your involvement here.

Results and observations have been posted here extensively by 130+ POIS sufferers, beginning nearly two years ago. If you read through the posts you will find very similar experiences to yours and the beginnings of successful treatments which we are in the midst of validating.

There are also summaries that have been posted here by B_Jim and Counterpoints.

A POIS video has also been prepared by girlwind at

If you fill out a survey form by Counterpoints, you will also be able to see other members' POIS data. It is available at:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

[demografx]

...I've never met anyone else who's experienced this.  It's exciting...is there a list of suppliments or techniques used to combat the side-effects?...I've gone a period of 11 months without ejaculating...

Limejuice, welcome to The POIS Forum! And thank you for posting! Most of us felt the same enthusiasm as you after discovering this Forum of like-sufferers.

Yes, it's an exciting time, because - as you say - we're no longer going it alone and also (I believe) we are on the threshhold of finally discovering several effective POIS treatments (multiple treatments for multiple types of POIS and multiple (unique) body chemistries).

11 Months' restraint! Wow! But several people here noticed that even with far less abstention than that, it can create a different tension. Even misery. And as you said, POIS comes back once you eventually have that orgasm. I've noticed that, after a very long time abstaining, the eventual pent-up orgasm creates far worse POIS for me than keeping up a more "reasonable" abstention/orgasm cycle (for me that's probably less than one month's abstention).

Many supplements and drugs and techniques have been reported here. Look for the Summaries that have been created by B_Jim, as well as skimming the posts (it might be worth the lengthy time you'll need to go through the 70+ pages of posts). The search function is not great, but sometimes it works  [] .

Girlwind's POIS video:

Counterpoints' survey form: 
http://pois.olympe-network.com/
you'll find more treatment info here once you fill out the form.