[reuniting]

Here's a new medical abstract, which may help to explain why orgasm (which lowers dopamine) may produce temporary social anxiety. In plain language, this experiment shows that dopamine levels seem to have more effect on social anxiety than SSRIs (the usual treatment, which increases serotonin...and possibly, indirectly, dopamine).

Dopaminergic challenges in social anxiety disorder evidence for dopamine D3 desensitisation following successful treatment with serotonergic antidepressants.

Abstract Serotonergic antidepressants (SSRIs) are first-line treatments for social anxiety disorder [SAnD], though there is evidence of dopaminergic system dysfunction. Twenty subjects with DSM-IV SAnD, untreated (n = 10) and SSRI-remitted DSM-IV SAnD (n = 10), were administered a single dose of 1) a dopamine agonist (pramipexole 0.5 mg) and 2) a dopamine antagonist (sulpiride 400 mg), followed by anxiogenic challenges (verbal tasks and autobiographical scripts) in a double-blind crossover design, the two test days being one week apart. Anxiety symptoms were measured by self-reported changes in Visual Analogue Scales, specific SAnD scales and anxiety questionnaires. Plasma levels of prolactin were obtained. Untreated SAnD subjects experienced significant increases in anxiety symptoms following behavioural challenges after either sulpiride or pramipexole. Following remission with SSRIs, the socially anxiogenic effect of behavioural provocation was significantly attenuated under dopamine agonist pramipexole, whereas under sulpiride effects remained significantly elevated. There appears to be instability of the dopamine system under behavioural stress in social anxiety subjects that is only partly rectified by successful treatment with an SSRI, which may induce a desensitisation of postsynaptic dopamine D3 receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18838500 [nofollow]

[John21 (OP)]

Limejuice,
Your experience complements mine: after consuming fenugreek I had a "small" NE. Perhaps your theory on orgasm intensity is correct, when I was young I had such an addiction as well, perhaps we somehow taught our bodies to go big. I tried another pill yesterday morning just to try it's effect on me again, and even one produced a small antidepressant-like effect, noticeable within a day of taking it. It messed up my fragile sleeping again so I will discontinue it for now.

Do you experience any side effects with fenugreek?

[CertainlyPOIS]

...I have had two Nightly.E in a row...I will also note i havnt orgasm in montths. [] [] []

Isn't a Nightly.E an orgasm?

Am not sure about similarities and differencies between N.E and a normal orgams.  But i made conclusion there is a difference because Pois is weaker after N.E than other orgasms.

[Finally]

I used to have NE almost nightly.  Because I got stiff and headaches I would take pain killers & muscle relaxers like aspirin and Ibuprofen etc  I found that If I limited them to only morning and afternoon the NE stopped.   

[girlwind]

My NE as a female is what I call dream orgasms. And yes, they are definitely not as draining as "conscious"
orgasms. I also notice that they happen most often in the middle of my cycle (near ovulation) and at the
end of my cycle (pre-menstrually). I've considered them to be some kind of hormonal release orgasms,
because of that pattern. I suspect the liver would be involved somehow, because it processes progesterone
and estrogen. But I have no idea what is really happening or why or what the physiological dynamics are.
Also, I have always had strong orgasms, from a very early age (age 3), which I think is quite unusual for a
woman. (Or maybe most women just don't talk about it.) It wasn't until I was 16, that I finally found out
that those "pleasure spasms" I was giving myself actually had a name! Though I don't think I was addicted
or excessive, I was definitely consistent.

[demografx]

So does orgasm intensity = POIS symptoms intensity?  If so, sex could be compared to drugs or alcohol - the more intense the rush/high/orgasm, the better you feel but a worst recovery/low.

Does anyone else have this experience?

Low, even almost no, intensity has still created nightmarish POIS at times. No predictability for me.

Am not sure about similarities and differencies between N.E and a normal orgams.  But i made conclusion there is a difference because Pois is weaker after N.E than other orgasms.

It's been a while since having N.E.'s, but again, no predictability. Some of the worst POIS for me has come from N.E.

[demografx]

Here's a new medical abstract, which may help to explain why orgasm (which lowers dopamine) may produce temporary social anxiety...

Hi, reuniting, thanks for posting again! Your website,
http://www.reuniting.info/ is very interesting! And thanks again for your posting a link to our site.

[martin88]

Hi Limejuice and Reuniting.

In my case I can't see a difference in pois with variation of orgasm/ejaculation intensity.
I have NE if I sleep on the side, but I agree NE seems to happen easily when sleeping on the back.

Thank you Reuniting for this article on social anxiety. Dopamine is involved, that's perhaps why MAOI antidepressants work better to cure this. http://www.socialfear.com/

[martin88]

Girlwind, you had high cortisol initially and low cortisol afterwards and now normal cortisol in the lower range. How were your pois symptoms in all these three states ? Thank you!

Here is a very interesting link about cortisol testing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8047637

http://www.janethull.com/faqs/why-use-saliva-not-blood.php

According to several readings and one or two posts here, testosterone is increased after orgasm. Does anyone here feel this ? I don't think because we all have low libido/energy after. What is interesting is that testosterone levels are modified by orgasm/ejac. This is a major finding I think. I don't know enough about this, but is it possible that testosterone is increased in blood because it's not used  somewhere else where it's necessary (in the brain or tissues ...) ?

[girlwind]

Girlwind, you had high cortisol initially and low cortisol afterwards and now normal cortisol in the lower range. How were your pois symptoms
in all these three states ? Thank you!

Here is a very interesting link about cortisol testing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8047637

http://www.janethull.com/faqs/why-use-saliva-not-blood.php

According to several readings and one or two posts here, testosterone is increased after orgasm. Does anyone here feel this ? I don't think because
we all have low libido/energy after.

Thanks for the article confirming the validity and reliability of saliva cortisol testing! (For those who need proof.)

"The assessment of cortisol in saliva has proven a valid and reliable reflection of the respective unbound hormone
in blood. To date, assessment of cortisol in saliva is a widely accepted and frequently employed method in psycho-
neuroendocrinology."

As for my cortisol levels, in regard to POIS. I had absolutely no sex during the time they were too high, as I was far too ill
and stressed to even consider that an option. During the times I tested very low, POIS was as bad as  could be, and in those
days I didn't know what POIS was or what was causing it, so I didn't make any connection btwn POIS and cortisol. I have
definitely noticed improvement in POIS with my cortisol normalizing, but it is not 100% better. (Also, I still practice a lot of
orgasm avoidance.) By addressing the thyroid issue, which I have been treating with herbs and iodine foods for about 2 months,
I think I've improved from 50% to 75% of my POIS symptoms. I definitely don't have POIS as long as before--it's only 1 day now.

It's hard for me to believe that testosterone is increased after orgasm, not with the kind of symptoms that we
all have had. Testosterone gives you drive and energy, and that's not anything like POIS.

[reuniting]

Martin88, just curious about your testosterone remarks. Last time we checked the research, the fluctuations in blood levels of testosterone after orgasm moved around, with a consistent brief spike at day seven, but over all there was no increase or decrease. Has something new come out?

What *may* account for the changes in libido/energy is the androgen receptor levels in key parts of the brain after orgasm. For example, male rats, after sexual satiety (sex to the point of disinterest), show decreased androgen receptors for sometime, and the changes correlate with their decreased libido.

Androgen receptors are the receptors on nerve cells that *respond* to testosterone. So if lots of them are missing for a while, no amount of testosterone will "register" as good feelings. This may be at work in humans, too. Another reason to think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)

[reuniting]

Limejuice [MessageID: 204675] Your post about fenugreek decreasing both the intensity of your orgasm and the POIS hangover was fascinating. My curious husband quickly found that fenugreek may increase prolactin (or act like prolactin). That is, it increases lactation...AND likely suppresses dopamine. (Prolactin is released after orgasm, and its function is to hold dopamine down for a while. It acts as a "sexual satiation" hormone.) Your results make perfect sense. The fenugreek would be suppressing dopamine from the start.

He said he would be concerned that depressing dopamine with an herb might be bad for someone with depression or social anxiety disorder (both tied to low dopamine).

[mellivora]

Hi everyone,
I’m still catching up on past posts and still amazed by just how long it takes to read them all! I’m on page 67 or so but have just briefly skimmed through some of the later pages. Reading so many posts in so little time might be beneficial to help me link together the various info people have posted but I wish I’d managed to stay more up to date. Countepoints I haven’t forgotten about the questionnaire.

Girlwind’s posts about thyroid function have jumped out at me and I would like to draw attention to my particular case as I first detailed on page one of this forum. My POIS symptoms only appeared after I was treated with radioactive iodine to kill off part of my overactive thyroid. As usually happens in cases of radio-iodine treatment, my thyroid then became underactive. It is since then that I have suffered POIS symptoms. Before that I didn’t have what I would recognise as POIS symptoms. Orgasm for me gave no negative symptoms except after some years the following: Probably in my mid to late teens after masturbating particularly frequently (so I thought at the time) – once a day for a couple of weeks or so -  I noticed my semen was runnier than normal so I stopped. I can’t remember how long I stopped for but later when I started masturbating again and sometimes when I just became stimulated (without a full ejaculation) I developed sharp stabbing pains in the abdominal area – but no POIS symptoms, zero brain fog etc.  It was only years later after radio-iodine treatment and the resulting underactive thyroid that I developed POIS symptoms (I only mentioned the stabbing pains in case it indicates some other prior weakening of my sex system. I don't have the stabbing pains now).

Since my post-radioiodine treated thyroid was diagnosed as underactive, I have taken levothyroxine daily. According to girlwind’s research and as detailed in the article http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/article_info.php?articles_id=2 this is a T4 only supplement and may well be insufficient in making up for my lack of thyroid function. According to some of the articles girlwind has posted, a better treatment should be a combination of T4 and T3. Wow! My TSH has long been coming back as what doctors regard as ‘normal’ I think I have actually been tested for T3, T4 including (I think but am not sure)free T3 or T4 on occasion. I REALLY need to check my medical records and get the results of all my tests. I can’t believe I haven’t chased this up more! I guess in the periods between POIS that I am feeling well enough I have a tendency just to get on with and enjoy life when I get the chance. Anyway, I’m left wondering if there are some organs that are not getting the T3 they need and perhaps this is contributing to POIS. I’m out my home country until the end of the year so can’t look into this yet, although thinking about it perhaps I’ll be able to email my doctor and at least get the results of my last few tests and see if they tested free T3 and T4. I definitely want to look into a combined T4/T3 supplement instead of T4 only and will keep you posted. I will say that I don’t put on weight easily and there are other classic underactive thyroid symptoms I don’t have  but I’ve always been someone among my peers that doesn’t put on weight – maybe other factors are in play). As Girlwind has highlighted, it is possible to have low free T3 and still not be diagnosed as having an underactive thyroid. It doesn't sound from other posts like all people on the forum can be underactive but the fact that I only got POIS after my thyroid treatment seems important. It's possible the radioiodine somehow damaged parts of other organs too?

Some thoughts on garlic. As I mentioned, I’m abroad at the moment and the garlic variety I have tried here is different to the one back home, though I have today bought a variety that seems more similar to what I’m used to. Somehow the first garlic just wasn’t as strong (not as strong tasting and doesn’t burn as much when chewed). Also I see according to at least one article
http://postharvest.ucdavis.edu/datastorefiles/234-199.pdf


 "Intact garlic bulbs lost about 25-
40% of their pungency after 4 months storage at 0-
1°C (32-33°F) in air"

The content of alliin in garlic can vary
considerably due to garlic variety but also
production practices. Among about 30 garlic varieties we studied, there
was a >2 fold variation in alliin concentration"

I don’t know whether variation in the quantities of active ingredients between varieties or age of stored garlic cloves could be a contributing factor in the hiccup John21 suffered in his otherwise promising garlic treatment? What do you think John? I guess maybe its unlikely if you've been regularly consuming it and therefore always have a regular, fresh supply? As I mentioned, garlic treatment hasn’t done it for me other than some slight improvement in early testing. In my lastest POIS event it has not been effective but I’ve realised I’ve been using old cloves of this suspected less potent variety. I’ve just bought a newer variety which as I said seems more similar to what I’m used to. Its probably important to remember that if we're consuming raw plants, some natural variation in the levels of chemicals that different plants contain is inevitable

There are loads of garlic articles on the web. I have only had chance to skim a handful. These are:
 

 
http://postharvest.ucdavis.edu/datastorefiles/234-199.pdf

http://www.allicinfacts.com/allicin05a.htm

http://www.kyolic.com/html/kinfo/vol1_3.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/garlic/NS_patient-garlic

As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, garlic cloves should apparently be sliced/crushed and consumed immediately to maximise consumption of the active ingredient though there are variations of opinion on the exact best method and just how much of it is taken up usefully by the body.

[demografx]

...He [my husband] said he would be concerned that depressing dopamine with an herb [such as fenugreek] might be bad for someone with depression or social anxiety disorder (both tied to low dopamine).

Reuniting, thanks for the caveat. I have been suggesting caution here many times, so I appreciate the reinforcement. Relora, in particular, concerns me, because as a plant the interaction effects with other Rx meds and/or OTC drugs are unknown. But so far, it's exciting to see some positive results!

[demografx]

...think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)

Reuniting, great idea. I've tried for years and I conclude that it requires a minimum of sainthood plus postgraduate work []

After more futile years, I also succeeded with Mantak Chia's formula of "orgasm without release" (Girlwind did, too, [and not with me!] ) but no POIS relief! Sorry for the late night humor...

30+ years of POIS agony that has ruined a good chunk of my life and now Levitra works for me 50% to 75%. We also have one other positive Levitra report from another forum member. But Cialis didn't work at all (for me)! Viagra is an unknown and after my Cialis disaster I'm not interested in trying it.

I'm really hoping (for me, and others here who are looking for the same thing after years of trying everything under the sun) that some "chemical cocktail" will eventually do the trick.

I mention the 30+ years of POIS because my patience is frankly thin at this stage.

But I welcome any approach that can work. We're all different.

[demografx]

mellivora, thanks for the rapid catch up and posting!

[girlwind]

Girlwind’s posts about thyroid function have jumped out at me and I would like to draw attention to my particular case as I first detailed on page one of this forum. My POIS symptoms only appeared after I was treated with radioactive iodine to kill off part of my overactive thyroid. As usually happens in cases of radio-iodine treatment, my thyroid then became underactive. It is since then that I have suffered POIS symptoms.

According to some of the articles girlwind has posted, a better treatment should be a combination of T4 and T3. Wow! My TSH has long been coming back as what doctors regard as ‘normal’ I think I have actually been tested for T3, T4 including (I think but am not sure)free T3 or T4 on occasion. I REALLY need to check my medical records and get the results of all my tests. I can’t believe I haven’t chased this up more! I guess in the periods between POIS that I am feeling well enough I have a tendency just to get on with and enjoy life when I get the chance. Anyway, I’m left wondering if there are some organs that are not getting the T3 they need and perhaps this is contributing to POIS. I’m out my home country until the end of the year so can’t look into this yet, although thinking about it perhaps I’ll be able to email my doctor and at least get the results of my last few tests and see if they tested free T3 and T4. I definitely want to look into a combined T4/T3 supplement instead of T4 only and will keep you posted.

As Girlwind has highlighted, it is possible to have low free T3 and still not be diagnosed as having an underactive thyroid. It doesn't sound from other posts like all people on the forum can be underactive but the fact that I only got POIS after my thyroid treatment seems important. It's possible the radioiodine somehow damaged parts of other organs too?

Mellivora--Thank you for your input about your thyroid issue. As you know I've just recently discovered that I
have lived with un-diagnosed hypothyroidism for probably 30 years. Considering that I have a 30 year history of CFS,
and that according to some doctors 90% of CFS patients have hypothyroid, I was really quite pissed off to realize how
pathetically inept all the doctors I have seen (over so many years) have been in addressing my thyroid problem. It is
truly shameful  that no doctor I saw (over this 30 year period) ever bothered to look into this, to order a round of the
CORRECT THYROID TESTS (Free T3, Free 4, TSH, TPO, and Reverse T3) and to make an effort to assist me out of
the hellish exhaustion that I had to suffer through so needlessly for so long.

I have definitely seen results with both CFS and POIS since I began to address my thyroid problem. But because I
have so many health issues going on, it's hard to chart an exact level of improvement with  one particular problem. Also,
because I am not a classic hypothyroid case (my thyroxine level (T4) is actually okay, it's my T3 that is too low, which
means I have a T4 to T3 conversion problem), I am not in a hurry to take thyroid hormone. Instead I have chosen to treat
myself with natural remedies, particularly iodine rich foods (like seaweed & sea salt) and an adaptogenic Indian herb that
is traditionally used for assisting both adrenals and thyroid--Ashwaghanda. After just 2 months I can see improvement
in several of my symptoms, most noticeably I no longer have this uncomfortable squeezy feeling in my throat. It is
completely gone!

In addition to the articles I've read and posted on this site, there is an excellent book on thyroid by Mary Shomon, called
Living Well With Hypothyroidism. I HIGHLY recommend it. It covers every aspect of the issue from accurately assessing
risk factors, to conventional and alternative treatments, to the MANY controversies around thyroid diagnosis and treatment,
to the ever changing "normal range" for TSH, to the benefits of Armour Thyroid (the natural hormone used for 100 years
before the synthetic thyroid pharmaceuticals strategically pushed it to the fringes of the market place) and all the REALLY
UGLY politics of the Synthroid manufacturer's attempts to squelch thyroid research, in order to protect their profit margins
with their best selling levothyroxine drug.

I definitely can concur that there is a connection in my case between both my adrenals and my thyroid and POIS. And
I encourage anyone who might suspect that they have a throid problem to spare themselves of any further exhaustion
by getting it checked out and treated.

"a study published earlier this year concluded that 13 million Americans have undiagnosed  thyroid disease."
Source: Mercola

[martin88]

Martin88, just curious about your testosterone remarks. Last time we checked the research, the fluctuations in blood levels of testosterone after orgasm moved around, with a consistent brief spike at day seven, but over all there was no increase or decrease. Has something new come out?

What *may* account for the changes in libido/energy is the androgen receptor levels in key parts of the brain after orgasm. For example, male rats, after sexual satiety (sex to the point of disinterest), show decreased androgen receptors for sometime, and the changes correlate with their decreased libido.

Androgen receptors are the receptors on nerve cells that *respond* to testosterone. So if lots of them are missing for a while, no amount of testosterone will "register" as good feelings. This may be at work in humans, too. Another reason to think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)

Here are the posts and article I was talking about :
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg185405#msg185405

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg179880#msg179880

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0222_060222_sex.html

Yes I have read this about androgen receptors on your web site. Very interesting. Maybe pois is a slight form of androgen insensivity. Dopamine and testosterone are closely linked.

[Limejuice]

Limejuice,
Your experience complements mine: after consuming fenugreek I had a "small" NE. Perhaps your theory on orgasm intensity is correct, when I was young I had such an addiction as well, perhaps we somehow taught our bodies to go big. I tried another pill yesterday morning just to try it's effect on me again, and even one produced a small antidepressant-like effect, noticeable within a day of taking it. It messed up my fragile sleeping again so I will discontinue it for now.

Do you experience any side effects with fenugreek?

Like you, I sleep extremely light where any noise or light can break my sleep.  As you know, bad sleep only magnifies POIS symptoms.

Fenugreek side effects...I feel slight anti-depressant effects as well but their low impact and don't effect my life or mood.  In contrast, Relora's side effects were intolerable and Relora wasn't as effective as fenugreek.

[demografx]

Girlwind, have you noticed anything that helps your POIS but not CFS?