[hurray]

FENUGREEK

What doses and frequency are people using? Is Solgar the preferred brand?

How was fenugreek first stumbled upon? What was the theory? Cortisol? Oxytocin?

Just a reminder: Fenugreek is in pharmacy Rx-interaction systems, so it behooves us to check (OTC, too)

When I first tested Fenugreek, I had been doing some research into oxytocin, since it is known to be released during orgasm. My initial thought was that my oxytocin reserves might somehow have been severely depleted during orgasm, leading to the symptoms of POIS. Maybe having more oxytocin available would lessen the symptoms?
Various websites credit Fenugreek with having an "oxytocin-like" effect - as synthetic oxytocin is very difficult to obtain and administer, I thought it would be worth giving Fenugreek a try.

My other line of thinking was that there is research showing a connection between autism and low oxytocin levels: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/21920
One of the main symptoms of POIS is inability to socialise properly - could it be that POIS makes us feel temporarily a little autistic due to oxytocin depletion?

Aside from its very pleasing success at getting rid of my POIS symptoms, it has the side effect when I use it of making me feel closer to people and more sociable than I have ever been before. Other people have genuinely reciprocated my new-found sociability - if it didn't sound rather boastful, I would say that it has made me more charismatic

[Chewbacca]

Re:hurray

What dosage of fenugreek are you using hurray. I got "lucky" this morning and I didn't get to take the fenugreek until after said activity. I popped two solgar fenugreek pills right after, and I think I'm going to take another before I go to bed. What works best for you as of late? Any breast tissue increase? (J/K)

Re:Laroux

If I end up feeling shitty tomorrow you can rest assured I'm giving the sea salt a try! It would be wonderful if all we had to do to cure our POIS was drink a glass of Celtic sea salt. I'm praying it's just that simple. Thank you for sharing you experience with this forum! It may be of great benefit!

RE:Demografx

hurray came up with the idea for taking fenugreek as an oxytocin synergist. I was the one who connected your experiences with levitra to oxytocin since PDE-5 inhibitors increase the level of pituitary oxytocin release when taken before sexual stimulation. What's interesting to me is that laroux stated that the release of oxytocin and vasopressin can cause hyponatremia. Something that his girlfreind might have. What really interests me is the connection between all these phenomena and potential remedies.

[demografx]

Hi everybody, I'm new here. This forum has been the best on the subject of POIS I have discovered so far. I want to say thank you to all the suffering who were so forthcoming with their posts. I have been suffering with POIS for about 20 years. I  have been diagnosed with unipolar depression for about 16 years. My psych. tells me he thinks the two are related...

Welcome, gement!

Thanks for the compliments to the forum. I have had POIS at least 30 years. I agree with you and your psychiatrist about the depression-POIS link. Lately, I've come to wonder if that's where my depression started.

Thanks for revealing much of your detail. It's another compliment to this group that you're willing to share that with us on your very first post!

[demografx]

When I first tested Fenugreek, I had been doing some research into oxytocin, since it is known to be released during orgasm. My initial thought was that my oxytocin reserves might somehow have been severely depleted during orgasm, leading to the symptoms of POIS. Maybe having more oxytocin available would lessen the symptoms?
Various websites credit Fenugreek with having an "oxytocin-like" effect - as synthetic oxytocin is very difficult to obtain and administer, I thought it would be worth giving Fenugreek a try.

My other line of thinking was that there is research showing a connection between autism and low oxytocin levels: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/21920
One of the main symptoms of POIS is inability to socialise properly - could it be that POIS makes us feel temporarily a little autistic due to oxytocin depletion?

Aside from its very pleasing success at getting rid of my POIS symptoms, it has the side effect when I use it of making me feel closer to people and more sociable than I have ever been before. Other people have genuinely reciprocated my new-found sociability - if it didn't sound rather boastful, I would say that it has made me more charismatic

Thanks, hurray! I appreciate the recap. It's hard to keep all the myriad experiences/theories straight with this POIS-ravaged brain of mine. []

The oxytocin theory is fascinating. And I hate to be a worry-wart, but everyone keep in mind what my pharmacology-lawyer friend said: taking oxytocin directly could be lethal.

Fenugreek sounds like a low-risk way to oxytocin replenishment!

Fascinating again is the social-anxiety association. The more I read here about it, the more I can see how it's been true for me!

Someone here (girlwind?) said oxytocin is also known as "the cuddly chemical".

[demografx]

RE:Demografx
hurray came up with the idea for taking fenugreek as an oxytocin synergist. I was the one who connected your experiences with levitra to oxytocin since PDE-5 inhibitors increase the level of pituitary oxytocin release when taken before sexual stimulation. What's interesting to me is that laroux stated that the release of oxytocin and vasopressin can cause hyponatremia. Something that his girlfriend might have. What really interests me is the connection between all these phenomena and potential remedies.

I wonder if the hyponatremia theory is similar to Dr Waldinger's original hypothesis that during orgasm, a flu-like hormone is released, which the body then fights off?

If oxytocin is the culprit, maybe I can lower my Levitra intake and supplement with fenugreek. It's all fenugreek to me.

[demografx]

POIS DIARY

A 2nd day mid-day nap helped, and now it's evening (I always do worse in the evening)and my "dried up fingertips" are back. But not bad at all.

I'm pleased with my progress.

This time, so far, doubling my Levitra clearly helped. Very little cognitive and social nonsense, mostly just a little tired.

I can live with that!

[Finally]

My girlfriend, who is 36, has been suffering from POIS for several years and I think we've finally found something that alleviates her symptoms and possibly is causing them.  Prior to the onset of POIS at age 34, she had never had issues with feeling lousy after orgasm, now she is basically bedridden for two days afterward.  All of her symptoms seem to be the same as the men who post on this forum.  She also has been complaining of severe back and shoulder pain (unrelated to sex) for about the same 2 year period.  She has tried all sorts of treatments for the back pain and none seem to work.  She also has the same POIS systems the day after after drinking ANY alchol... and I mean only 1 sip.  She doesn't get the typical hangover (headache, nausea) like most people, just severe POIS like symptoms.  She says it feels exactly the same.  I think it was this link that helped us to find out what was going on with her.

Yesterday we were just cuddling and both became aroused.  The phone rang and the mood passed... we wound up not having sex.  Even so, she began suffering from POIS systems shortly afterward.  Out of compassion for her and frustration for what was happening to her, I began researching the link between sexual arousal and hormone release.  In both men and women, I found that Oxytocin and Vasopressin are released during sexual arousal and peak their release during orgasm.  I further discovered that in some people, this release of Oxytocin and vasopressin can cause hyponatremia,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia) which can result in the severe myalgiaic symptoms, fatigue and headache that she experiences.  The result of the hyponatremia is a low sodium electrolyte balance.  I gave her a small glass of water with 1/2 teaspoon of salt and she felt better within 5 minutes.  Has anyone else tried saltwater and felt better?

While we don't know the root cause of her sodium electrolyte imbalance, we have now tried the saltwater thing 3-4 times and in every case it has not only resolved her symptoms completely but made her feel fantastic.  Her back pain and joint pain even resolved.  Clearly she has to be careful about how much saltwater she ingests but the link between electrolyte imbalance and her POIS symptoms could not be ignored.  Has anyone else tried this treatment with success?

She has not had any alcohol since we discovered this treatment for her POIS symptoms.  We don't know if they are related but if anyone else has these "hangovers" that mirror POIS symptoms after just a tiny amount of alcohol, we'd be very interested to know.  Also, please let us know if the saltwater works for you.

I have taken salt after orgasm to limit the damage of POIS.  I usually use Sea Salt.  In the past I was able to get salt tablets at a pharmacy but last time I went the pharmacist told me to just"eat a bag of pretzels". More lack of respect.
Also her symptoms sound like mine.  Neck back and shoulder stiffness.  Also alcohol produces a similar effect.  Arousal will produce lesser symptoms Usually lasting less than a day.

I got blood tests results Taken by a rheumatologist in March(health care system here is insane) My Na(sodium)  and all others were in range although Nitrogen and Creatine were on the very low end.

[demografx]

VASOPRESSIN AND NOCTURIA

Does anyone else have overactive bladder and/or nocturia (excessive nighttime urination)?

Vasopressin is a controversial cure for it. After reading laroux, chewbacca and hurray's ideas, I wonder if there's another 3-way connection (BLADDER, POIS, VASOPRESSIN)?

Perhaps urinary problems are a tip-off to vasopression deficiency?

Wow, am I getting out of my league here! []

[laroux]

My girlfriend seems to have the opposite problem, she doesn't pee very often, especially during the night.  That's the hyponatremia thing... the body holds on to all the water but uses up the intracellular sodium. Apparently Oxytocin can severely exacerbate this problem to the point where the sodium that exists in fluid between cells is used up almost entirely.

Something else she told me that was interesting.... salt ingested by itself didn't help.  She had to dissolve it in water and drink the water to feel better. She feels better within minutes of drinking the saltwater.

[laroux]

Here's another Wiki that I would recommend reading.  Vasopressin is also released during arousal and orgasm and actually may be more the cause than Oxytocin for low blood serum sodium. 

newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndrome_of_inappropriate_antidiuretic_hormone [nonactive]

Another thing I noticed is that you must be VERY careful if you attempt to correct hyponatremia by drinking saltwater.  You can harm yourself if you ingest too much. Probably best to limit it to half a teaspoon with a small glass of water at a time.

[martin88]

It would be great to know if you took other meds with Levitra.

No, nothing else with Levitra. Although, I can't help but think that perhaps it was a placebo effect. At the time, I was just starting to date my girlfriend and I couldn't wipe the smile off my face if you know what I mean. It may have negated the effects of POIS.

I've tried again, more recently, only I had about 3 orgasms in a three hour period. It did not prevent POIS.

All times, it was a 10MG dose, and all times I had dry sinuses as the main side effect.

Thank you Whoa. So the mystery remains. I'd really like to know the impact SSRI can have on pois. I tend to believe that the combination of a long sexual abstinence helped by SSRI can have a positive impact on pois.

The times that I've tried Tantra, I've felt satisfied without ejaculation, I had no POIS symptoms. There definitely is a link between ejaculation and POIS, for me anyway.

I saw on TV in a sexology show a man with pois who was cured by tantra.
He said about his pois that he was fatigued and had difficulty to communicate after ejaculation. After he reduced his ejaculation frequency he was cured.

[martin88]

[Is there] a good article concerning SSRI or SNRI and cortisol[?]...

Martin, my psychiatrist-friend's reply:
Hi [demografx],
 
Not really.  There is a general association between depression and increased cortisol levels and PTSD and low cortisols.  If you Google cortisol and either SSRI or depression, there are many many hits.
 
[signed]

Thanks for this.
What about the cortisol in this case !
The comorbidity of PTSD and depressive disorders is of particular interest. Across a number of studies, these are the disorders most likely to co-occur with PTSD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10795606?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=5&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

[Limejuice]

This thread has exploded!

The longer I've belonged to the thread the more I want to test Dr. Waldinger's hypothsis.  The question is how?  Should I suppress my immune system and test?  Sounds dangerous!

I have an idea but it might be hard to communicate.  Dr. Waldinger beleived POIS is an immune response to a hormone/chemical released after orgasm, right?  What if we research all chemcals released and then, one at a time, take each one and observe what happens?  If Waldinger is correct our body should react when we take a certain chemical.  No?  Thoughts?

[Counterpoints]

Welcome to all new posters.  There have been some very interesting discussions taking place recently!
I urge you to record your cases at http://pois.olympe-network.com
Anything submitted there will be reviewed by MDs, PhDs, and other medical researchers.

[demografx]

This thread has exploded!

The longer I've belonged to the thread the more I want to test Dr. Waldinger's hypothsis.  The question is how?  Should I suppress my immune system and test?  Sounds dangerous!

I have an idea but it might be hard to communicate.  Dr. Waldinger beleived POIS is an immune response to a hormone/chemical released after orgasm, right?  What if we research all chemcals released and then, one at a time, take each one and observe what happens?  If Waldinger is correct our body should react when we take a certain chemical.  No?  Thoughts?

Limejuice, with all due respect to Dr Waldinger, this forum has gone way beyond his two subjects studied in his classic paper. We have garnered a tremendous amount of information and we represent - with B_Jim's summary on Page 11 - well over 140 cases and who knows how many dozens of theories?

I would be very careful and only conduct such tests under extremely well supervised tests.

Limejuice, if you'd like to write to Dr Waldinger and get his opinion, send me a Private Message.

[demografx]

In case you're considering Horny Goat Weed []

[John21 (OP)]

Martin88,

Thank you Whoa. So the mystery remains. I'd really like to know the impact SSRI can have on pois. I tend to believe that the combination of a long sexual abstinence helped by SSRI can have a positive impact on pois.

SSRIs (I've been on many) had no effect on my POIS, although they assisted my PE somewhat.

[demografx]

Martin88,
SSRIs (I've been on many) had no effect on my POIS, although they assisted my PE somewhat.

I've been on SSRI's for 20 years. No POIS effect. They have lowered my libido, however.

[demografx]

POIS DIARY

This is Day 3, Thanksgiving Day, so I'll give thanks to (1) this forum, a sanity/lifesaver and (2) Levitra and other successes we've found here.

I'm less tired, but not 100%. And I notice the tiredness makes me less than optimally focused. I'm playing piano tomorrow and I'm just a little concerned that I won't be "100% on". My motivation to play during this POIS episode has been somewhat lower due to the fatigue.

For myself, I want to focus on increasing energy during the POIS period. Any ideas are obviously most welcome.

[Counterpoints]

A glass of water with half a teaspoon of salt is almost certainly harmless -- especially when you consider what is in most soft drinks, etc. But in any case, I want to warn those trying to self-medicate hyponatremia:

"Hypoosmolar hyponatremia

When the plasma osmolarity is low, the extracellular fluid volume status may be in one of three states:

    * Low volume. Loss of water is accompanied by loss of sodium.
          o Excessive sweating
          o Burns
          o Vomiting
          o Diarrhea
          o Urinary loss
                + Diuretic drugs (especially thiazides)
                + Addison's disease
                + Cerebral salt-wasting syndrome
                + Other salt-wasting kidney diseases

Treat underlying cause and give IV isotonic saline. It is important to note that sudden restoration of blood volume to normal will turn off the stimulus for continued ADH secretion. Hence, a prompt water diuresis will occur. This can cause a sudden and dramatic increase the serum sodium concentration and place the patient at risk for so-called "central pontine myelinolysis" (CPM). That disorder is characterized by major neurologic damage, often of a permanent nature.

Because of the risk of CPM, patients with low volume hyponatremia may eventually require water infusion as well as volume replacement. Doing so lessens the chance of a too rapid increase of the serum sodium level as blood volume rises and ADH levels fall."

There is also an adrenal-hyponatremia link. "hyponatremia can also result from adrenal insufficiency, congenital adrenal hyperplasia, hypothyroidism, and some medications. However, the vast majority of cases, and perhaps all, of medication-associated hyponatremia is not due to the medication per se. Rather, the medication has caused SIADH or has led to volume depletion"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia