[demografx]

My last [testosterone] test at M.D. came back okay.

Underwater, so did mine! But when I tested more in-depth, as suggested by Girlwind, testosterone came out LOW! Apparently, many (most?) general-MD's are not all that up to date on hormonal testing.

"Free testosterone" needs to be part of your testing. One reason why I went to an endocrinologist. I think Girlwind recommends seeing a naturopath and/or testing directly with labs such as ZRT Labs.

These former posts should help:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+testosterone+ZRT+labs+girlwind+site%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com

[underwater]

Thanks Demo for the added info------

[demografx]

Underwater,

I just looked at my lab report, and it shows in the testosterone area:

- Testosterone, Bioavailable

- Testosterone, Total

- (SHGB) Sex Hormone Globulin Binding

- Testosterone, Free

[demografx]

I was informed that **The Naked Scientists are performing some advertising tests, explaining the tech problems we're experiencing.





**I hope they're not freezing!

[SteveD]

I have found that exercise is a temporary improvement for POIS. I've been long distance runner/swimmer for 32 yrs. Exercise = Endorphins.  For me, staying away from alcohol and caffeine has helped with both conditions.  Supplements: I've taken supplements for over 30 years. Vitamin C is my constant forever. I take a B complex, D, fish oil, garlic, magnesium and potassium, also some calcium.
For me, this forum is therapeutic and cathartic. I actually feel better as a result of constructive, positive dialogue. Since I feel better as a result, it strengthens my immune and nervous systems. It reinforces healing. It seeps into the subconscious. It actually becomes a tool. 

But I absolutely know  that there is a "rock solid case" for a concommitant psychological and behavioural genesis, if not actual cause.  Thus, I try to work on all aspects of POIS to diminish it: exercise, sleep, nutrition, my mind, my back, supplements, psychiatrist, chiropractor , you know all the stuff we talk about all the time. For me, I prefer natural methods.

Girlwind--
Deep in my gut I suspect a broad holistic approach may be
the most valuable to me.

Underwater,

These all make sense to me. I don't drink alcohol or use caffiene (or drugs or cigarettes). I work out very hard daily. Around supplements: I drink a 12 herbal tea prepared specifically by my acupuncturist for POIS. I drink 6 to 24 ounces of homegrown, fresh wheatgrass per day (far and away the most effective supplement , for me). I also take cod liver oil, iron, vitamin D and B-12 supplements.
I think the holistic approach is the most sensible way, for me, too. So, I also add prayer, meditation and service. Service, I've got to say, after abstinence, is the most effective tool against POIS I have experienced. Finally, and most recently, is the healing power of this forum. There is something about the love, in the form of acceptance, that is just magical, for me. Thanks guys (and girl).

[SteveD]

Steve--
Very interesting news--It's positive news--
I have been very curious about the "escape" experiences people have talked about--
Because if you can escape once ,twice, thrice............?

Underwater,

Thanks. My partner is of the same vigilant hopefulness. I, initially sadly, but now with acceptance, peace and courage, do not see the anomalies as signs of hope, but rather as spurious, confusing and misleading examples of a disease manifesting as cunning, baffling and powerful.
I, for one, believe that  abstinence is the 'cure' for Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, for me. So, I choose to accept that and spend my energy trying to make my life as good, healthy, creative and as happy as it can possibly be, but without orgasm...I've got a lot to learn, but I'm getting better.

[underwater]

Steve--
I haven't gone into my behavioral decisions regarding POIS as much as you or others have, but the last 20 months I have been basically abstinent due to GAD plus POIS. There are NE's. These are not pleasant.
However, I do have fresh recollections of the years 2004-2006. They were a very good two years! Pois was "tolerable" and had a defined 2-3 day dissipation pattern. Then in early/middle 2007 things fell apart. Imprudent behavioral choices with their psychological consequences ignited GAD, and GAD intensified POIS which intensified GAD etc. Now 20 months later, I've rid all imprudent behaviour, reduced POIS "episodes" and am close to ending this GAD episode. Can I return to 2004/5 condition? I don't have a clue, but I'm optimistic. I see anomalies as windows of possibilities. This is because I've experienced BAD GAD for long perios of time and recovered! And a BAD GAD episode can last for me two months and be like POIS 24/7. Yet I get over them. POIS is like an evil trick sent by one of the goddesses/gods in the ancient greek pantheon to punish an unfaithful servent/lover. Or better yet, a punishment one could have seen in Dante's inferno. Many times I've felt like a rat in Skinner's experiments where when you press a lever for food you get electrocuted, yet return for punishment anyhow. Nevertheless, I do not think that POIS is like an etching carved into our brain incapable of being filled in or erased. I know that I have a long way to go to break those "mind forged manacles" that William Blake refers to in his poem, London, but will look to anomalies as least as distant lights for inspiration.

[SteveD]

Steve--
 ...but the last 20 months I have been basically abstinent
Pois was "tolerable" and had a defined 2-3 day dissipation pattern. Then in early/middle 2007 things fell apart. Imprudent behavioral choices with their psychological consequences ignited POIS. Now 20 months later, I've rid all imprudent behaviour, reduced POIS "episodes". Can I return to 2004/5 condition? I don't have a clue, but I'm optimistic.

Underwater,

It piques me that it's been 20 months of change, for you. 20 months ago I stopped being orgasmic and that was very good for me. 9 months ago I started dating again.

I experienced, as you so eloquently stated "behavioral choices with their psychological consequences". Though I avoided POIS, like the bubonic plague, I still incurred very significant losses , due to genital contact, in all the areas POIS affects, but just to a lesser degree.

I am trying to obtain the level of health I experienced being perfectly chaste the first 11 months of this 20 month period.

In all fairness to truth, I felt very lonely the first 11 months and I don't feel any of that now.

[demografx]

I am in NC and none of the doctors I have seen to know or are willing to answer anything about it.

SickLifeSaver, endocrinologists in North Carolina:
http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/drs/north_carolina/endocrinologists/

It's listed by City/town.

The original POIS medical study was co-authored by an endocrinologist. Perhaps you can email it to a few in NC near you and ask for their reaction so you'll pick one that is more motivated to learn about this.

Get a copy from me or Pyropeach; we would just need your email address to send it to.

[underwater]

Steve--
I understand your symptomatologic chart: 1-5 with % of loss.
For me it can be understood as behaviours that trigger an anxiety/panic episode. In my experience it would reflect an hyperexcitatory state.
Believe it or not, I have experienced what you define as number 3 (arousal and loss). Except it caused a reaction like number 4 or 5. It was terrible. These events happened in July 2007 at the beginning of this 20 month period I talked about. These were visual triggers only, but at the time my nervous system was so debilitated that I could do nothing. I was on "vacation", can you believe it? I thought I was going "mad", because I had very little control over my mind's response to the stimuli. So it fits into your number 3 category. I thought I was going crazy! Man, that was an awful period. I
really understand what you're going through. This is why I have posted a lot about my GAD and my POIS. I cannot disentangle them. One is orgasmic and post orgasmic (POIS) and the other sexual and pre-orgasmic. (I have used the term many times of anticipatory anxiety, almost a fear of arousal and orgasm). I still get those in sleep in fear of NE, but finally am controlling the extent of symptoms. In fact, when I was in a real bad period,
even if I didn't get to number 5, but almost, it triggered armageddon. The good news is that these have now all diminished. But I must do what is right for my body/mind just as you clearly state. Being in a long and solid marriage makes things much easier for me. Believe me, I understand your situation and the tragic consequences it has for you, for if you crave companionship and the joy of sexuality there is a dark, black cloud hanging over your every move. You know, sometimes I feel we're in a maze or house of mirrors never finding the exit, always running into reflections of ourselves. I submit to you there is an exit. I don't know quite where yet, but I'm optimistically looking.

[demografx]

Pro, i really love your description of "unawakened" state, dissociation. I feel the same thing. You find the good expression. It's the more difficult symptom to explain to my doc.
I used the words :
- mental confusion
- stupor
- derealisation
- "i feel like sleeping" / dreamlike state
- loss of vigilance and loss of consciousness
   
At the moment, my best theory to try to explain this is the unbalanced ratio DHEA/cortisol. Saving cortisol release might be a key factor (avoiding all physical , psychological stressors as diet or light) and for flulike cases at least , inflammation.
 

B_Jim, can you explain the DHEA/cortisol relationship just a little more?

Did you get the idea from the partial successes of Relora and Fenugreek?

[demografx]

None of the physicians I have approached are able to diagnose the problem.

fellow sufferer, please see my note above to SickLifeSaver, or click:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg218918#msg218918

Do a google search on "Endocrinologists in [your state]" and then follow the suggestions in my post to SickLifeSaver.

I have a delay post "O" of about 1 to 6 hours before this awful condition begins.

This is very common, fellow sufferer. Some people have the delay for a full 24 hours. This has happened to me often, but not always.

[SteveD]

Steve--
I understand your symptomatologic chart: 1-5 with % of loss.
For me it can be understood as behaviours that trigger an anxiety/panic episode. In my experience it would reflect an hyperexcitatory state.
This is why I have posted a lot about my GAD and my POIS. I cannot disentangle them.

You know, sometimes I feel we're in a maze or house of mirrors never finding the exit, always running into reflections of ourselves. I submit to you there is an exit. I don't know quite where yet, but I'm optimistically looking.

Underwater,

I feel like I'm on my tippy-toes trying to understand your experiences of GAD . I can't. I imagine that this is what it must feel like when loving and wise people try to understand what I've been saying about Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. They simply have no experience of it and the can't understand, try as they may.

For me, the stages of POIS are physical states, which leads me to believe that dopamine levels rise or prolactin levels drop in the pre-orgasmic stages of POIS and then there is an 'allergic reaction'  to that neurochemical change depending on the level of exposure...very similar to the emotional/experiential envelope that addiction theory models describe.

Various approaches use black and white thinking (ie, abstinence) and others use moderation-eating disorders for example. Since it is true that I"... crave companionship and with the joy of sexuality there is a dark, black cloud hanging over my every move" , honestly, then, I am currently titrating to see where an acceptable level of loss is.

PS Hendrix used to say 'I used to live in a house full of mirrors, and I all I could see was me'. I know, due to the first 11 months of this 20 month period, that there is an absolutely perfect solution to this problem. A chaste life, alone. I know that works...but, it was lonely. Not the worst problem in the world, of course, but one I would like to solve.

 

[SteveD]

Day two of three of 'no arousal behavior', as negotiated with my partner. Life is returning to me. I am grateful...

[SteveD]

Day three of no arousal behaviors. I'm more available to other people, practicing a little, administrating my life more. I notice my meditation is up and I've lost 6 pounds. Nothing earthshaking. The Red Sea didn't part. I haven't been conversing with burning bushes...but I feel more solid internally.

[demografx]

                    Total % loss...For me
1) openness to dating    2% loss
2) dating                     5% loss
3) arousal behavior      10% loss
4) genital contact         20%loss
5) orgasmic sexuality   95% loss

After a two day experiment at stage 2), for us, dating, my partner and I went back to stage 4), for us, non orgasmic genital contact.

I'm feeling fatigued, confused, flushed, tired, runny nose, arthritic in my knees and lower back.
I'm negotiating with my partner to do a three day experiment at stage 2, for us, after the long weekend and before a three day trip we have next week.

Steve, please stay on topic. This is a medical forum on postorgasmic difficulties. "1) 2% loss - openness to dating  2) 5% loss - dating and the like is not serious or scientific discussion of post orgasm.  

This is not a blogsite as you call it. Repeated posts to this effect will be grounds for dismissal. Thank you.                  

[demografx]

Day two of three of 'no arousal behavior', as negotiated with my partner. Life is returning to me. I am grateful...

Day three of no arousal behaviors. I'm more available to other people, practicing a little, administrating my life more. I notice my meditation is up and I've lost 6 pounds. Nothing earthshaking. The Red Sea didn't part. I haven't been conversing with burning bushes...but I feel more solid internally.

More "romantic" blogging. Please familiarize yourself with the 2,500+ posts for the last 2 years to get a firsthand understanding of the nature of this forum.

This is a 2nd warning.

[SteveD]

Day two of three of 'no arousal behavior', as negotiated with my partner. Life is returning to me. I am grateful...

Day three of no arousal behaviors. I'm more available to other people, practicing a little, administrating my life more. I notice my meditation is up and I've lost 6 pounds. Nothing earthshaking. The Red Sea didn't part. I haven't been conversing with burning bushes...but I feel more solid internally.

More "romantic" blogging. Please familiarize yourself with the 2,500+ posts for the last 2 years to get a firsthand understanding of the nature of this forum.

This is a 2nd warning.

My apologies if my sharing of my experience of the the Illness of Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome is inappropriate in this forum. As you are the moderater I will abide by your wishes.

Currently I am not experiencing any symptoms of POIS , simply, because I am not being orgasmic.
 

[demografx]

B_Jim, can you explain the DHEA/cortisol relationship just a little more?
Did you get the idea from the partial successes of Relora and Fenugreek?

1/ Yes. I gave a scientific theory p33 :

A recent study measuring the levels of DHEA-s and cortisol, in connection with dissociative symptoms occurred during a stress shows that people with a higher DHEA-s/cortisol have fewer symptoms of dissociation and better overall performance.

2/ In a lot of psychiatric disorders, the dhea/cortisol ratio is not stable. More severe than brainfog, the derealization is a dissociative state  linked to this ratio.
It seems there is a double regulation between cortisol and Dhea.
- Dhea and cortisol are antagonists (high cortisol is opposed to low Dhea)
- Dhea may be converted to cortisol if needed. (high stress)
Example : panic attacks ( "A hypothetical explanation of Panic disorder" , German journal of psychiatry , 2001)

Panic attacks may be due to very low DHEA levels to relative to cortisol level possibly resulting from conversion of dhea to cortisol.

Panic/Fears = excessive stress = excessive release of cortisol = body can't answer and converts Dhea to cortisol = dissociative state
 
3/ Possible explanation for Pois :
We know that cortisol is release with stress and with inflammation too (cortisol is the anti-inflammatory hormone of body.)
After orgasm the Pois sufferers with flu-like symptoms (dr Waldinger's Pois form) may have an allergic reaction and inflammation (Il-6). Body may answer with cortisol release and may cause an unstable cortisol/Dhea ratio. I suppose the ratio is stronger with Relora (cortisol is not "wasted" all the time, DHEA 227% increased (?) is available if needed).

B_Jim, many thanks for the repeated explanations. It makes me glad that I tested DHEA-S and that I pushed the endo for cortisol testing in March!

[reuniting]

Have a look at this New York Times article:

Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html [nofollow]