[demografx]

...medical school will stress the hell out of a POIS Sufferer.

Amazing, CC! I just thought the same thing soon after posting!

[demografx]

Underwater, excellent point you made about a super-fit athlete of 24 curing POIS vs. the rest of us plain humanoids!

[demografx]

I think overall fitness is a big factor in recovery from any condition. But the other side of the story is that someone
who IS SO FIT managed to get POIS in spite of it. So that says that endocrine functioning can be seriously adversely
affected by working out TOO HARD and burning the adrenals too intensely, no matter what one's fitness level is. It
also says that with the right treatment this endocrine depletion could be remedied. I think it's a good & hopeful sign.

Excellent points, Girlwind!

[GoingCrazy]

I do realize that you may have gone over this already due to the 140 pages of comments, but do you realize other people have sex all the time and don't have side effects like we do? There has to be some outside force or something that is not working in our heads after orgasm, maybe a certain chemical that is supposed to be released isn't actually being released... this could just all be due to one chemical... but the only other influence on my head at the time of when I first had POIS symptoms was the coffee.  Maybe it depleted some chemical in our heads that was supposed to be released after orgasm.  Have any/all of you drank coffee when you experienced the symptoms? because that would help a lot for me determining if coffee played a role in this... again... sex was fine until I started drinking coffee I believe.

[Counterpoints]

Hi goingcrazy.  You may be interested in the questionnaire at http://pois.olympe-network.com

Once you complete it, you can see other people's responses, too.

I get POIS-like symptoms when I drink coffee. 

[CertainlyPOIS]

CC, haven't heard from Jane Ashby yet, but at least SSTAR forwarded my letter to the "right" Jane Ashby.

what do you mean by there will be others

Nice job on that, i wish she responds faster to see whether has good information. 
Do you think they will rather have us come to their program.

It sounds like a good program, but I'm not near Arlington. Besides, if she doesn't respond there will be others.

[CertainlyPOIS]

I do realize that you may have gone over this already due to the 140 pages of comments, but do you realize other people have sex all the time and don't have side effects like we do? There has to be some outside force or something that is not working in our heads after orgasm, maybe a certain chemical that is supposed to be released isn't actually being released... this could just all be due to one chemical... but the only other influence on my head at the time of when I first had POIS symptoms was the coffee.  Maybe it depleted some chemical in our heads that was supposed to be released after orgasm.  Have any/all of you drank coffee when you experienced the symptoms? because that would help a lot for me determining if coffee played a role in this... again... sex was fine until I started drinking coffee I believe.

I was never a heavy coffee drinker but i think i can say, pois got worse after i started drinking. I started drinking in college and noticed full pois in college.

On drinking coffee during pois.  Coffee dosnt help, sometimes it kinda makes it worse. I get a sense that my brain wants to think clearer but it cant.

[CertainlyPOIS]

Has anybody noticed during pois, their dreams get less intense, during pois i can never remember my dream.  Out of pois i can rember it at least during the first thirty minutes i wake up.

[GoingCrazy]

Has anybody noticed during pois, their dreams get less intense, during pois i can never remember my dream.  Out of pois i can rember it at least during the first thirty minutes i wake up.

yeah its weird,  days when I orgasm and go to sleep during pois I don't really "dream". Im in this state of anxiety and may dream for about an hour then wake up and check the clock.  It is also weird how pois affects our mind state, like I know I can think clearer than how I am thinking, but yet the pois is blocking that "clear thinking" ability

to be sure of the abstinence thing, I'm not going to have sex at all for a year and then do it and see what happens

[GoingCrazy]

And about the NE's, how long until you experience these NE's after an orgasm [?]  I hope that these emissions don't actually "cause" orgasm in your head but only release semen.

[deloun]

I do realize that you may have gone over this already due to the 140 pages of comments, but do you realize other people have sex all the time and don't have side effects like we do? There has to be some outside force or something that is not working in our heads after orgasm, maybe a certain chemical that is supposed to be released isn't actually being released... this could just all be due to one chemical... but the only other influence on my head at the time of when I first had POIS symptoms was the coffee.  Maybe it depleted some chemical in our heads that was supposed to be released after orgasm.  Have any/all of you drank coffee when you experienced the symptoms? because that would help a lot for me determining if coffee played a role in this... again... sex was fine until I started drinking coffee I believe.

I've always avoided drinking coffee because of the POIS symptoms of tension / restlessness, so I just assumed that it isn't good for me. So to be honest I don't really know the effect on my POIS symptoms.

[deloun]

Has anybody noticed during pois, their dreams get less intense, during pois i can never remember my dream.  Out of pois i can rember it at least during the first thirty minutes i wake up.

Indeed, I've noticed the exact same.

[deloun]

And about the NE's, how long until you experience these NE's after an orgasm [?]  I hope that these emissions don't actually "cause" orgasm in your head but only release semen.

I can't tell how long because it differs, but it definitely causes POIS for me. Maybe it helps to avoid nocturnal emissions by trying to avoid as much sexual impressions as possible, although that is quite hard because it's everywhere.

[deloun]

The theory that I have about POIS, is that the symptoms may be caused by a deficiency of one or more of the catecholamines of which noradrenaline may be the most relevant.

There are several points that may lead into this direction:

- During sexual activity noradrenaline levels rise and after orgasm they drop. (1)
- Having a shower with alternating hot and cold water and the sauna including cooling down with a cold water bath / shower both help reducing the symptoms. Noradrenaline and adrenaline levels rise significantly when the body is subjected to cold stress. (2) (3)
- During a period in which POIS symptoms occur, I can have an enlarged / swollen penis. Continuous release of noradrenaline is necessary to keep the penis in a non-erectile state. (4)
- Human semen contains high levels of catecholamines. (5)
- The symptoms of a depletion of catecholamines are similar to many symptoms related to POIS. In the scientific research linked as reference a depletion of dopamine is induced, though this is likely to cause a depletion of noradrenaline and adrenaline besides dopamine alone, as a consequence. Since noradrenaline and adrenaline are produced from dopamine in the body. (6)
- PDE4 inhibits the cyclic AMP (cAMP), which has an inhibition of noradrenaline and adrenaline as a consequence. Therefore, a PDE4-inhibitor has the opposite effect, an increase of cAMP and noradrenaline levels. (7) (
- Among other areas in the body, PDE4 has also been found in male and female sexual organs. I'm not sure if this is relevant. (9) (10)
- Sceletium Tortuosum helps reducing POIS symptoms. It's a herb of which the main active alkaloid is mesembrine, which is a PDE4 inhibitor with a mechanism in a way similar to rolipram (11) that raises levels of noradrenaline. (7) (
- Thinking back about it, I remember that recreational use of amphetamines (speed) in the past showed a reduction of symptoms and after the effects wore off, an increase of the severity of the symptoms was noticed for up until about a week, possibly because of a depletion of noradrenaline. I already had POIS long before I had used any amphetamines, by the way. Amphetamines are known to increase levels of noradrenaline and a temporary depletion of noradrenaline after use is possible.
- Garlic has been reported to help reducing POIS symptoms. Garlic can increase noradrenaline and adrenaline levels. (12)
- Fenugreek has been reported to help reducing POIS symptoms. Fenugreek contains diosgenin, which can produce an oxytocin-like effect. Oxytocin can increase noradrenaline levels. (13)
- Celtic salt has been reported to help reducing POIS symptoms. That person might be sensitive to salt-induced hypertension, which can cause an increase in plasma noradrenaline and adrenaline levels. (14) Another possibility is that the level of oxytocin increases by the salt. (15) Oxytocin can increase noradrenaline levels. (13)

- Blood test results showed a deficiency of noradrenaline and adrenaline. During the collection of blood for the tests, only mild POIS symptoms were experienced, during a period of more severe symptoms there may be an even greater deficiency. (16)


(1) Plasma noradrenaline and dopamine-beta-hydroxylase during sexual activity. Link to full text (PDF) is also available at that website.
(2) The Influence of Cold Stress on Catecholamine Excretion and Oxygen Uptake of Normal Person.
(3) Interrelations between Sympathoadrenal System and Hypothalamo-Pituitary-Adrenocortical/Thyroid Systems in Rats Exposed to Cold Stress.
(4) Physiological significance of nitrergic transmission in human penile erection.
(5) High levels of catecholamines in human semen: a preliminary study.
(6) Subjective Experiences During Dopamine Depletion.
(7) Rolipram, an Antidepressant That Increases the Availability of cAMP, Transiently Enhances Wakefulness in Rats.
( The antidepressant and antiinflammatory effects of rolipram in the central nervous system.
(9) Immunohistochemical Distribution of cAMP- and cGMP-Phosphodiesterase (PDE) Isoenzymes in the Human Prostate.
(10) Immunohistochemical Description of Cyclic Nucleotide Phosphodiesterase (PDE) Isoenzymes in the Human Labia Minora.
(11) Mesembrine is an inhibitor of PDE4 that follows structure-activity relationship of rolipram.
(12) Allyl-Containing Sulfides in Garlic Increase Uncoupling Protein Content in Brown Adipose Tissue, and Noradrenaline and Adrenaline Secretion in Rats  ("Administration of diallyldisulfide, diallyltrisulfide and alliin, organosulfur compounds present in garlic, significantly increased plasma noradrenaline and adrenaline concentrations").
(13) Facilitative role of endogenous oxytocin in noradrenaline release in the rat supraoptic nucleus.
(14) Genetic influence on brain catecholamines: high brain noradrenaline in salt-sensitive rats.
(15) Release of oxytocin induced by salt loading and its influence on renal excretion in the male rat.
(16) Test results of neurotransmitters, hormones, etc..

[Limejuice]

Deloun, say that low noradrenaline is the cause of your POIS.  How would you test your theory?

[deloun]

Deloun, say that low noradrenaline is the cause of your POIS.  How would you test your theory?

Maybe there are several things that can be done to test that, like more blood / urine tests that are relevant, presenting this information and theory to a doctor that can help in this area, testing what the effect is regarding POIS of certain medicines that increase noradrenaline levels, like PDE4 inhibitors, noradrenaline re-uptake inhibitors like reboxetine or atomoxetine (Strattera) or stimulants. I'm also planning to make an appointment with an endocrinologist and to present him this theory and information.

[demografx]

The theory that I have about POIS, is that the symptoms may be caused by a deficiency of one or more of the catecholamines of which noradrenaline may be the most relevant.

Fascinating theory and most exhaustive post, Deloun!

[demografx]

I have always felt significantly better when I have had a large fruit salad made by my wife.

What if it were made by someone else? []

(sorry, couldn't resist).

[demografx]

B_JIM

[] Forget fructose depletion theory of youtube's comment. ? ? ? ? ?

Underwater, I think the naive humor in the youtube post was "eat some fruit, rest 12 minutes" and you're cured of POIS!  []

[demografx]

I'm ready to make the tests recommanded by Michael, Girlwind and others but  only in blood, not saliva :/ I would prefer saliva tests at least for cortisol and Dhea. The good point is i will test pregnenolone too. That's a good point for me considering my low cholesterol.

B_Jim, congratulations on the testing progress!