[demografx]

I dunno guys, it is ok to feel like crap once and a while, but everyday if you have sex... that''s just impossible to deal with... people around me think I'm a different person [:-'(]

Goingcrazy, it's really tough. But don't give up. Every time I wanted to give up the fight yet didn't, something new came along to make me glad I continued on. For over 30 years of this nonsense. We'll beat this thing yet!

[GoingCrazy]

I dunno guys, it is ok to feel like crap once and a while, but everyday if you have sex... that''s just impossible to deal with... people around me think I'm a different person [:-'(]

Goingcrazy, it's really tough. But don't give up. Every time I wanted to give up the fight yet didn't, something new came along to make me glad I continued on. For over 30 years of this nonsense. We'll beat this thing yet!

yes I know... its the days that I experience POIS I write this... lol had sex on sunday, it has only been about 3 days... Im just glad I can recover as long as I don't "do it"... I'm not saying recover as being cured... but recovery as a "can feel better and think clearer" or "feeling normal" stage from not having sex... so its basically being put on us if we experience this or not  (leaving out the possibility of nocturnal emissions)...  I have one question... did you notice even the slightest change of pois symptoms after your periods of abstinence and then having an orgasm again?


lol 30 years? that gives me much hope....jk im sure something is out there that'll help us

[GoingCrazy]

Why do we recover?

That question stumped me the most!!

I believe that we recover because our body filters out toxins on a daily basis... another possibility is our body stops attacking itself (auto-immune) because it god rid of what it needs to get rid of... other than that I have no other thoughts.

sometimes i get relieved from pois symptoms momentarily by chugging say a bottle of water, maybe that contributes to the removal of toxins?

[GoingCrazy]

Also... something very weird i forgot to say

during last year when I didn't know I had pois I was a senior in high school.  I decided to give blood at the blood drive.  It was weird for me, because I noticed a certain "freeness" of the symptoms that lasted for about an hour or two after giving blood, maybe it is hormonal

[rob58]

Hi Guys,

I have been reading the postings for about a month now and finally caught up. Found you at the top of the list after googling "orgasm" and "fatigue".  Ironically my major symptoms are a bit better described by "brain fog" than by fatigue but I was sure that using brain fog as a term would not give me any results..

I have known that my POIS symptoms were linked to orgasm since I was 15 but have probably had POIS ever since I first had an orgasm.  I am now 50 years old and have suffered from the same symptoms with about the same intensity throughout.

My next post I intend to bore you with my symptoms and theories.  Thanks for being here.

[martin88]

Hi to the newcomers! Rob I did the same thing before posting anything, but it was less to read. I'm sometimes wondering if those who don't read really have pois, probably not like me!

Deloun, I believe in this theory about noradrenaline (or norepinephrine). I thought exactly the same thing and wanted to post about this, but the fact that some people tried SNRI without success made me think that perhaps it's not true.

Martin, maybe your theory is still possibly correct. Effexor (SNRI) didn't work for me but maybe SNRI's just aren't powerful enough for norepinephrine balancing?

This is a possibility, specially if you're already taking something else which is already increasing norepinephrine. I didn't know that ADHD medications are increasing norepinephrine.

Deloun's theory/links are very interesting. I think Levitra is a PDE4 inhibitor(to be verified), not only PDE5.
Testosterone is closely linked with dopamine. (If testosterone decrease prolactin, dopamine should be increased).

Demo, you said that after a very long abstinence pois is worse. True for me too (pois after 6 weeks abst will be worse than after 2 weeks). Maybe it's because of increased prolactin (?), because it wasn't released for a long time. Should we say that if someone have daily sex the amount of prolactin is reduced but still too much if we count the total amount of prolactin over weeks. (If I have daily sex it's devastating because I never recover)

[underwater]

To Goingcrazy and any other young persons new to this forum:
It is great to have your perspectives and ideas. There is a fresh and spontaneous point of view that I don't have. I racked my brains last night trying to return to the time frame that probably started all of this. I'm still trying to dredge up  memories and clues.

I personally want to thank everyone for even the slightest clue. This is a jigsaw puzzle. And you all know how that works. Once you get enough pieces in place your mind goes ah ha! Then you can match the remaining pieces in their correct places more quickly. It's just a matter attaining critical mass. Then---Symphonic Epiphany!!!!!!!
Granted our puzzles may be quite individual, but the multiple synergies will overcome all that.------------------------------------------------------------------

[demografx]

rob58, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video: A first!

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

[demografx]

I believe that we recover because our body filters out toxins on a daily basis... another possibility is our body stops attacking itself (auto-immune) because it god rid of what it needs to get rid of... other than that I have no other thoughts.

A while after I posted about being stumped as to Underwater's "why do we recover?", I realized that it's just another way the body drives to heal itself after trauma, e.g., a slightly cut finger will eventually heal.

And we probably all have "scars" from POIS to boot!

[demografx]

Welcome Rob58. At the beginning we had only 2000 views during first months and now 220,000 Web is a fantastic tool to regroup us considering the low prevalence of this syndrome.
 

B_Jim, I think that you (as the 2nd POIS listmember to post at this forum, on June 6, 2007) and others following you and John21 (our very first forum poster) who have stayed to contribute for a long time are one of the main reasons for the 220,000 views-success of this forum thread!

Thank you, B_Jim.

[deloun]

The theory that I have about POIS, is that the symptoms may be caused by a deficiency of one or more of the catecholamines of which noradrenaline may be the most relevant.

Deloun, I believe in this theory about noradrenaline (or norepinephrine). I thought exactly the same thing and wanted to post about this, but the fact that some people tried SNRI without success made me think that perhaps it's not true.

I have slightly this symptom you mention about genitals when in pois. Running, working, taking chocolate or coffee help (before the side effects for these foods). The symptom is mentionned in this page for the first remedy : http://www.hpathy.com/diseases/spermatorrhoea-symptoms-treatment-cure.asp

Also I know that coffee is increasing noradrenaline, so maybe before taking it NA is continuously low and after we take coffee the complete depletion occurs because we can't produce enough NA.

In a book I have it's written that sympathetic nerves exhaustion is causing pois, and I think these nerves are releasing noradrenaline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noradrenaline


My MD also thinks I have a problem with noradrenaline because he wants me to take clomipramine or an equivalent.

Noradrenaline is highly involved in motivation and concentration.

I think the herb rhodiola is supposed to increase noradrenaline but for me it causes a complete insomnia, perhaps a sign that something is depleted.

Interesting, that you notice that same symptom, cold water can also help.
About that rhodiola, it seems at least it had some effect on you, maybe you had to get used to it? Did you notice any other effects?

[demografx]

A lot of people with depression might actually have pois...

This was true for me at times.

[deloun]

Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?

[deloun]

What I'm thinking is.  A lot of people with depression might actually have pois, you know?  I thought I had depression for about 2 years until I found out it was from the sex.  I was even prescribed lexapro, an antidepressant

And it's interesting I have an uncle who is depressed... maybe we have identical genes and he just hasn't figured out it is from sex

I dunno guys, it is ok to feel like crap once and a while, but everyday if you have sex... that''s just impossible to deal with... people around me think I'm a different person [:-'(]

I've also been thinking that there might be even a lot more people that experience very negative symptoms after sex that are physically related and a lot of them might not even be fully aware or not aware at all. For me, and I believe many others here, it also took a while before I was fully aware of the link between sex and symptoms.

[deloun]

- Sceletium Tortuosum helps reducing POIS symptoms. It's a herb of which the main active alkaloid is mesembrine, which is a PDE4 inhibitor with a mechanism in a way similar to rolipram (11) that raises levels of noradrenaline.

Deloun, do you know if there's a relationship between your noradrenaline theory and PDE-5 inhibitors like Levitra? And with testosterone?

Demografx, I had already searched for a possible link with Levitra but couldn't find much at the moment. I did find however that Levitra also inhibits other PDE's, including PDE4, but very weak in comparison to PDE5, so it's not clear to me if the inhibition of Levitra on PDE4 is strong enough to have a significant effect. (1)

I had also searched for testosterone and believe it can have an effect on catecholamines, but couldn't find much concrete information in scientific research at the moment. I did find scientific research that noticed an increase of noradrenaline in a part of the brain of rats, though. (2)

(1) The inhibitory selectivity of vardenafil on bovine and human recombinant phosphodiesterase isoenzymes
(2) Effects of testosterone and ethinyloestradiol on the synthesis and uptake of noradrenaline and 5-hydroxytryptamine in rat hindbrain: evidence for a presynaptic regulation of monoamine monoamine synthesis?

[deloun]

Demografx, how are you doing on the testosterone at the moment, by the way?

[girlwind]

Until this forum, I have not focused on the adrenal glands. Girlwind seems to have influenced me in focusing on adrenal rehabilitation. That type of nutritional therapy involves considering adrenal fatigue. I might have made the mistake of always thinking I constantly had too much norepinephrine and epinephrine. Instead, the last few hours it dawned on me that I may be deficient in norepinephrine. Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic. Could my enhanced metabolism be working with my new supplements to make some more norepinephrine/epinephrine? Could my frequent insomnia and lousy sleep be due to slow metabolism and reduced production of norepinephrine etc.? Could there be general metabolic shutdown in some of us after orgasm, thus causing failure of adrenals to produce what they're supposed to produce? What is metabolic shutdown? I don't know. I just coined this in my flow of consciousness post. However, could it be that the caloric expenditure is so overwhelming that the body refuses to reup for a few days. It's not going to "burn", it's going to not even rest. It's just quitting for a while.

MY ADRENAL REPORT (by Girlwind)

Today is my 5th day of baby doses of hydrocortisone. I want to report an interesting phenomenon. After taking my morning dose
of 2.5 mg, I feel kinda sorta slowed down, though not exactly "tired." At first I thought this was a "BAD" thing. I'm supposed to get
MORE ENERGY from this treatment, not less. (And yes, I still need to multiply my dose by about 10 times more over time, before I
can gauge the REAL effect.) But then, I realized that I am so USED TO feeling this wired tired buzz that being S-L-O-W-E-D down
to more normal functioning feels WRONG.  Notable is the fact that as soon as my morning dose wears off, in about 4 hours time,
then I begin to get back the wired-tired (which is my "normal").  After I take my 2nd dose at noonish, I go through the same cycle.

My thought is that when we acclimate over time to what we're USED TO as being normal, any changes to our system might initially
feel NOT normal, even if they are only a part of the overall hormonal adjustment process. My worn out adrenals seem to create an
artificial FAKE energy, that causes me to be sleepless and anxious at times, and just plain restless. But there is NO ENERGY under-
neath that. Now, after taking the hydrocortisone, I feel energized enough to feel slower and more relaxed. How weird is that!

I want to remember this for future reference and remind anyone else who is doing the hormonal therapy approach.

[Counterpoints]

Hi Guys,

I have been reading the postings for about a month now and finally caught up. Found you at the top of the list after googling "orgasm" and "fatigue".  Ironically my major symptoms are a bit better described by "brain fog" than by fatigue but I was sure that using brain fog as a term would not give me any results..

I have known that my POIS symptoms were linked to orgasm since I was 15 but have probably had POIS ever since I first had an orgasm.  I am now 50 years old and have suffered from the same symptoms with about the same intensity throughout.

My next post I intend to bore you with my symptoms and theories.  Thanks for being here.

Rob, thanks very much for posting.  I'd really like to know how things have gone for you, and how you've coped over the years.  I'm only in my twenties,
but I've had to deal with this for 10 years so far, and I'm really worried about deterioration. 

I'm symptomatic about 80% of the time, these days.  When I am symptomatic (at all), I feel like I'm not "half the man I used to be".  And that I never will be again.  But now and then, there is the rare time that the symptoms completely go away, and I feel as sharp as I once did.  It's nice to know that you haven't really "declined" (beyond normal age related decline) -- at least it seems like this is what you're saying.

I definitely encourage you to fill out http://pois.olympe-network.com

Best wishes.

[underwater]

Girlwind--
I've noticed the same "adjustment isssues" you talk about. I've had some of my best days lately, but often times shortly after taking a modest adrenal support supplement I feel a bit "down". But I graph my moods everyday, and there is improvement. Remember your patience and perseverence admonition? The perseverence part is the hardest, because if I'm progressing with just vitamins and minerals (and I am!), my conservative side says,"Why risk playing around with plant extracts & amino acids"?
This reticence is due to GAD,and the tendency not to tinker with ANYTHING even if minor improvement is being made. But to vanquish GAD and to take that momentum toward the resolution of POIS requires some risk taking. I guess we have to be prepared to take two steps forward and one back every once in a while.

[CertainlyPOIS]

Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

Yes that happens to me all the time after exercising i get energetic but pois still exist.
I think it is because of endorphinns

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?