[martin88]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

[Counterpoints]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are ways you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?

[nsf]

Hi All,

I have been suffering from POIS and I accidentally discovered this site some days ago, to realize that I am not alone!! I have read through most of the posts so far, and it is great job - I am hoping I find answers to my problem soon.

I am not upto speed on the root-cause that has been discussed in this forum. In my past non-medical self-experiments, I found the following were very helpful -

1. Drinking more liquids (water/buttermilk/coconut water)
2. Taking less balanced food (esp. non-fatty foods)
3. Chewing gums (Specifically, mint helps)
4. Taking "Cloves" - "Cloves" are general spice that should be available in general stores nearby (or any eastern shops). Put 2-3 pieces on the mouth, and leave it there to stay (keep swallowing the saliva) - this seems to calm the mind better.

I am hoping to stay active and learn together for a solution.

[underwater]

I haven't seen one live starfish on the beach for the last 25 years. I saw one this morning. On an optimistic note, since I have nothing new to add, we all do recover from POIS. This means that something is working during our recovery/refractory period. It's just way too slow and sluggish. Our brains are getting the orgasm signals loud and clear, but the inhibitory mechanisms and turn off switches are AWOL (absent without leave if you are not familiar with this acronym).
I bet they're probably supposed to trigger immediately upon orgasm. Where the hell are they?
Sometimes I lay in bed and just watch these chemicals do their thing; on, off, and in between. Drives me mad. And I haven't even had a POIS episode for 10 weeks. Two nights ago, I thought I was going to have 4 our of 5 nights perfect sleep. I went to sleep like a baby. Watched the signals dueling with each other. Thought the good guy would win. WRONG------It was a close contest. I told my wife in the middle of the night that the good guys won. But alas, I had to admit that I was wrong. I just hate watching this tug of war. I have the same exact wrestling match with POIS, except I know exactly how it plays out. It doesn't surpise me. That's the bummer. But the switches are more or less the same.

[demografx]

nsf, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!

Thank you for sharing the 4 things you found useful from your experiments. We look forward to more of your posts!

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video: A first!

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse


In addition to our own interests, the above can be useful for you to show the medical world - who often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community.

Again, nsf, welcome!

[demografx]

Hi All,

I have been suffering from POIS...

nsf, it would be interesting to us to hear your symptoms.

We find that, for example, some of us are predominantly fatigue/exhaustion afflicted and others are primarily cognitive-impaired, e.g., brain fog, word finding difficulties, concentration.

[demografx]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?

Counterpoints, if you disagree, wait a while to attack my argument, because I'm not fully convinced...just yet. I'm still mulling this over.

Semen loss is a 5,000 year old POIS theory! Taoist literature describes symptoms similar to ours and attributes them to loss of sperm. I was once a "true believer" but ultimately abandoned the idea, after I practiced complicated ejaculation-with-sperm-retention techniques. I have posted about that here several times.

But lately, I've been wondering about loss from the standpoint of sperm replacement as Rob described. After ejaculation, the body senses the need to replace sperm, even when it's a "dry" ejaculation. Maybe the brain can't tell the difference between wet and dry but only knows the ejaculation occurred. Perhaps the Taoist techniques I tried failed because the sperm was simply diverted to the bladder and was eventually "released" via urination. So it wasn't really "dry" in that the sperm were simply released elsewhere in the body.

In any case, it does make more sense with "wet". Testosterone, which has helped me enormously once I realized the reason for unsteady results at first, helps manufacture sperm more efficiently. If testosterone is low, the body possibly has a much harder time of it, replaces sperm more slowly, and the result is POIS.

But I realize, Counterpoints, that people like you, for example, have a healthy testosterone reading, so I can't explain yours that way. Maybe only for others (predominantly exhausted/fatigued vs. primarily cognitive) can it be explained? (btw, I assume you tested for free testosterone? That pointed to a drastic shift for me from "normal" to "deficient").

I know that the association (which might not be cause and effect) with that feeling of being sperm-"empty" for several days after ejaculation, and having POIS seems most reasonable to me.

Conversely, when I'm feeling "full" once again...no POIS.

And now on steady-flow testosterone (not the T-injectables I took before) I feel "full" very quickly afterwards and again...no POIS.

And, like you, I don't believe that sperm volume makes a difference. To me, it's possibly a question of simple yes/no replacement that correlates with POIS.

Levitra seems to enhance the process, but I don't know why.

[underwater]

High Cortisol and POIS:
Dr. Waldinger's thesis is beginning to make A LOT of sense to me:
If orgasm triggers an autoallergic response, there is necessarily an increase in cortisol to fight the inflammation, with a few days (generally) needed until resolution [perhaps leaving a permanent inflammatory predisposition that is triggered each time there is an orgasm----and in some of us, getting worse as time passes].Not only that, but in many of us there may also be a corresponding decrease in testosterone due to the fact that progesterone will then be converted to cortisol production removing it from its co-function as a precursor to testosterone. This may cause a permanent or temporary reduction in testosterone. This may also cause an imbalance with estrogen leaving many of the symptoms associated with POIS. This may explain why Goingcrazy got relief by waiting a week before orgasm. He is a young man and the autoinflammatory response got a rest; the autoinflammatory predisposition was not so pronounced like in those men who are older. The body may learn bad habits. If this is true, we must break the bad habit, no matter how long it has been in place.

[demografx]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

Martin, may I make a suggestion? Don't drive yourself crazy (like I did!) trying to find out why. We may never know. The most important thing, to me, is progress in finding alleviation. And we are doing that incredibly well,,,and fast!

I suspect most illnesses' origins, e.g., cancer, are largely unknown.

[underwater]

Demo:
Interesting ideas re: sperm replacement. I wonder what the chemistry of that process is e.g. precursors, pathways, enzymes etc.  I wonder if it takes a lot of "energy or calories" to replace. It seems logical. Some people may be on the borderline with free testosterone. Maybe that is why POIS either appears to remain constant with some people or the recovery period grows longer with age. How do we explain our cases that emerged after age 30? Slow depletion? Sounds logical anyhow-----------

[martin88]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

Martin, may I make a suggestion? Don't drive yourself crazy (like I did!) trying to find out why. We may never know. The most important thing, to me, is progress in finding alleviation. And we are doing that incredibly well,,,and fast!

I suspect most illnesses' origins, e.g., cancer, are largely unknown.

I agree with you but I think that the more we'll know the more we'll be able to treat durably the real cause, not only a part of the symptoms.

[martin88]

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are ways you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?

I'm glad you're giving your opinion on this, even if it's not my intuition. Maybe what you're saying is true for you. I think everyone can be sensitive to differents things that are happening at orgasm. For example some people could be affected by the weaning of endorphins which are released at orgasm, this makes a lot of sense, or it could be this autoallergic reaction that is discussed now.

I'm not sure to understand your arguments (low sperm counts). The quantity of prostatic fluid can be normal with low sperm counts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate
In human prostatic secretions, the protein content is less than 1% and includes proteolytic enzymes, prostatic acid phosphatase, and prostate-specific antigen. The secretions also contain zinc with a concentration 500-1,000 times the concentration in blood.
I would be surprised if this has absolutely no action on us. Zinc is necessary to regulate the pituitary and I think it's hard to say if we are deficient or not.

For people who have reproductive problems and who don't have pois, it's very interesting, maybe you know something more specific ?

[nsf]

Thanks Demo and B_Jim.

I shall get some leisurely time soon and list the symptoms and POIS experiences I have been going through.

To your query B_Jim, I meant taking in LESS fat and high carb. & Sugar.

[demografx]

TESTOSTERONE SAGA

Endo is switching me to gel after patches caused a suddenly strong allergic reaction 3 weeks into application. So will start POIS Forum birthday with slightly new direction!

[demografx]

Underwater, you asked a very good question about sperm replacement. Yes, I believe it takes a lot of energy and bodily resources. No proof though, maybe someone can point us to factual research sources?

[demografx]

Nsf, thanks, looking forward to it!

[demografx]

Martin, of course you are right, the more we know about the underlying mechanism of POIS, the better the treatment

[jidmiddleton]

Hi All,

My name is Jon. I am a 30yo male living in the UK. I was astonished to discover this thread via google. I didn't know about POIS prior to reading this thread but believe that it reasonably accurately describes what happens to me.

My symptoms, post orgasm/ejaculation (either via intercourse or masturbation), are as follows:

Extreme mood swings (tremendous despondency or rage, irritability, fight or flight basically)
Extreme desire to be 'left alone' away from all forms of social interaction
Total brain fuzz (poor memory and recall, poor concentration, distinct inability to perform to known levels)
No physical symptoms

The severity of these symptoms is heightened in periods of stress (I have a stressful job). My 'normal' state is one of clarity, fine recall, excellent concentration and well-balanced emotions. These symptoms begin a few hours after orgasm/ejaculation, peak about 24 hours after and finally totally subside after approx 2/3days.

I have had these symptoms since early (pre sex or masturbation) puberty (unsure if I had many wet dreams at outset but possible). The symptoms were seemingly less frequent and severe throughout this period and on to my early 20s. It should be noted though that I was very physically and sexually active (several ejaculations a week, if not once a day) with low to no stress and excellent diet throughout this same period. My symptoms came to a head in my mid-20s to now when I was considerably less physically active, equally sexually active and with a poorer diet and high stress.

High stress is not to blame though as I have used a diary to track the incidence of outside pressure/stress and ejaculation against the symptoms. Ejaculation/orgasm is the prime cause to the extent where it is a repeatable and measurable test (ejaculation/orgasm = symptoms). I should also state that I do not have any emotional or psychological hangups about ejaculation/orgasm/sex/masturbation that could alter the results from demonstrating anything other than a physiological reaction.

I have always assumed that the symptoms were caused by an acetylcholine deficiency induced through sex or masturbation. There are a few websites that state this (link is stated with regards to masturbation but I believe this should be viewed as ejaculation as a whole). Acetylcholine deficiencies cause the body to over rely on the sympathetic nervous system which would explain my symptoms perfectly. I find that if I eat plenty of eggs and meat esp liver (choline rich foods) then I recover faster and can reduce the worst of my symptoms during an episode. Choline is the building block of acetylcholine.

Another thing that is interesting is I have always suffered from reflex epilepsy (Tourette's syndrome). This manifests itself as a physical tic that occurs very sporadically throughout the day (on a given day, I may have some tics, on another day, none). It is thought that reflex epilepsy is caused by problems with neurotransmitter levels esp. acetylcholine (I had an MRI and EEG at 19, both were clear). As such, it is one of the few conditions that can be treated with nicotine. Nicotine is effectively super-acetycholine. I do not smoke though. However, this may explain why people crave nicotine after sex if there is a normal level of acetycholine reduction in everyone post orgasm/ejaculation.

I would be very interested to hear from you all. I would especially be interested to know if anyone has any sort of physical tic associated with POIS and anyone whose symptoms are eased by eating choline-rich foods.

I would also like to ask the group how their symptoms are affected by smoking/nictone patches.

Please feel free to ask any questions that you have of me. I will be happy to answer.

I accept that my symptoms do not mirror everyones here but it may certainly be of use to the people who only suffer from the mental issues. It may be that I have a condition related solely to acetylcholine (poss. confirmed by the epilepsy) that is worsened by orgasm/ejaculation rather than being caused by it.

Best Regards,

Jon

[Pantaloon]

and in some of us, getting worse as time passes

Do people generally find that POIS gets worse as you get older?
My experience is that it maybe gets worse, but my ability to manage/mitigate it gets better.

[Pantaloon]

... and i try to eat anti-infllammatory food.

Hi B_Jim

Can you give us some examples of anti-inflammatory food?

I've found that I get some relief from what traditional chinese medicine considers to be drying foods. This includes beans (aduki etc), squashes, polenta, pineapple, pears, papaya, garlic and onions.