[Yogi]

The issues you are suffering is wellknown in both the yoga and qigong tradition and in tradtitional chineese, indian and tibetan medicine. I can only talk about these things in the language of those traditions and don´t have so much time now so I will only give a brief overview.

In Chinese medicine sexual energy, important cognitive functions especially large parts of memory function, drive and ambition and willpower and several other functions are seen as connected to the kidneys and the adrenal glands. If a man has sex with ejaculation he looses a lot of his kidney energy and this takes time to build up and untill then all of the kidneys functions such as memory and drive will be weakened.

THere are two ways to deal with this. One is to learn the technique for having orgasms without ejaculation. THis takes some time to master, usually a few months, but when mastered the man can have MULTIPLE orgasms without ejaculation and will experience very little energy loss, oftentimes an energy increase. As an added bonus these orgasms can become MUCH more powerful than a mans usual orgasms and of course he can now last as long as he wants in bed.

The other option is to build up the energy of the kidneys. THis can be done through diet, exercise herbs, acupuncture etc but the most powerful and effective way is through practice of qigong, yoga and meditation. THere are specific methods within these traditions, especially within qigong, to strengthen the energy of the kidneys so that memory is improved and so that one can have many more ejaculations without experiencing loss of energy and health to the degree that you are describing. I have interacted with many posters who practice these methods on forums and also practice similar things myself and can attest to their immense power and effectiveness. These things have not been studied scientifically to anything resembling a satisfactory degree but there have been done quite a few studies on qigong in China that shows very good results with regards to various illnesses and general health. THere has also been done good studies on the changes in the brain in long and short term meditators that document extraordinary changes in the parts of the brain that relate to happiness and good feelings. Also a study was done by Harvard scientists that showed Buddhist monks could regulate their body temperature to such a degree that they could sit in ice baths without any discomfort. If you search for Tummo and ice on youtube you should find videos of a dutch man that sits for more then an hour in ice baths without problems because he has learnt to regulate his body heat through this buddhist meditation. I just mentioned these studies to give some backing to the claim that there are some very, very powerful effects to be gained by these practices that have largely not been studied or understood so that when I say that these things are correctible through qigong it will have more credibility.

Building up the kidneys power through qigong takes time and effort when it is generally as weak as it is when people are experiencing the extreme types of symptoms mentioned here but I have seen others do it. The quickest and least time consuming strategy would be to just learn the multiorgasm techniques. However, several years of experience with such techniques and observing the results gained by others have demonstrated to me and many others that there is a risk of damaging yourself through faulty practice of the multiorgasm techniques. We have also observed that someone who learns these techniques and goes for a very long time without ejaculating but still has multiple orgasms runs the risk of getting very unbalanced UNLESS he also practices certain techniques from meditation, qigong or yoga. It is all very individual but going for a week without ejaculating while having multiple orgasms seems to work fine for most guys. Two weeks asometimes as well, three or four weeks almost always leads guys to mecome sligthly or very manic, aggressive and feeling generally unbalanced. No one knows why this is in western terms. I myself speculate that too much dopamine and testosterone has something to do with it.

I don`t have time to go in to the specifics of this now but a modest meditation practice and a couple of simple qigong techniques specifically aimed at balancing out these symptoms will allow you to go much further wihout reaching this unbalancing point. Still most who learn the multiple orgasm techniques choose to ejaculate once or twice a month even if they have meditation and qigong practices and this is a frequency of ejaculation often recomeded in old texts from the yoga and qigong traditions.

There is however another way of being able to have great sex with the most mindblowing orgasmic bliss you could ever imagine forgoing ejaculation almost completely for months at a time while not having a practice of meditation and qigong. THat his having the extremely relaxed Karezza style of sex. THere are two ways to have multiple orgasms. One is to have many explosive orgasms that are quite similar to the ejaculation orgasms you are used to. THese can become much more powerful then regular ejaculatory sex is for most men. However, these can as mentioned lead to certain imbalances over hte long term which needs to be balanced by meditation and qigong og yoga. THe second type of multiple orgasms are the so called valley orgasms. THese only happen through deep relaxation and feels more like implotions than explotions. THey feel yin rather than yang and are for most much more satisfying and feel almost spiritual. THe feel sort of like everlasting waves. FOr most people such orgasms are only available when they hardly move but with a meditation practice you can learn to have them also during more vigorous lovemaking. So fo most people the best option is to do what they recomend in karezza and have the sex where they almost just sit still. At reuniting.info how to do this is described and they also go into Post ejaculation problems quite a lot. So if you want the easy way then just do as they say. It will be the best sex you ever had, it will be wonderfull for your relationship and you will not suffer the post ejaculation problmes or the mutltiple orgasm imbalances. Hower, at that site they talk about not having orgasms not just not having ejaculations. This can seem confusing however they clarify in a couple of threads in their forum that what htey actually are recomending is to have the valey orgasm I am recomending here but this only happens when you stay away from what people conventionally consider to be an orgasm.

For all aspects of what I have said I recomed you go to this forum: thetaobums.com

THere you will find many knowledgable practioners and teachers of qigong and yoga with many years of experience with these problems. THere are also several there that have experienced more or less what you are going throug and which have cured themselves.

I mentioned that sometimes people can hurt themselves with the multiple orgasm techniques. THat usually concerns pressing the million dollar point (never a good idea, very dangerous) and very hard clenching of the pc muscles. THose techniqes that do work safely and best are those relying on breathing and relaxation, teh key sound technique. Dr lins technique and the aneros prostate massager and the karezza style of love making.

[pyropeach]

If anyone is interested in chiping in for the article by Ashbey, you can let me know via PM, and you'll need to have a paypal account setup.  Once setup, simply send the funds to my email address that I will provide.  But I'll first need to know how many people want to chip in to divide the cost.

[demografx]

2/ If we don't release more inflammatory agents, is it possible our natural anti-inflammatory response is too weak ? (=cortisol).

Cortisol may have an effect on our dissease. The body makes new cortisol in the period of waking up. But because we don't have a deep sleep because of POIS, this doesn't happen. Now the question is: why don't we have a deep sleep in the first night after an O.
Cortisol may explain why we have the most pain in the day after an O.

Vandemolen, I thought you might be interested in our numerous past discussions here about cortisol:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&gs_rfai=C8h4Xh2lLTLmIB4mgjQPXy9mMDwAAAKoEBU_QJUjZ&fp=a0e2566896ed0ba7

[demografx]

The issues you are suffering is [sic] wellknown in both the yoga and qigong tradition and in tradtitional chineese [sic], indian and tibetan medicine...Dr lins technique...

We have had very little success with this, and Dr Lin and his "actionlove" have been thoroughly invalidated here, numerous times.

We try to be open, but this really is a Science Forum, and as such our focus continues to be on empirical-scientific methods to arrive at a cure for POIS.

[Yogi]

The issues you are suffering is [sic] wellknown in both the yoga and qigong tradition and in tradtitional chineese [sic], indian and tibetan medicine...Dr lins technique...

We have had very little success with this, and Dr Lin and his "actionlove" have been thoroughly invalidated here, numerous times.

We try to be open, but this really is a Science Forum, and as such our focus continues to be on empirical-scientific methods to arrive at a cure for POIS.

Yes I know Dr lin is a quack but his actual technique for achieving multiple orgasms is generally recognized as one of the best by those who have, over many years, experimented with techniques for male multiple orgasms.

As for the empirical side of things I, and many others, have observed over a number of years men who have struggled with memory loss, brain fog anxiety etc. that have had these problems fixed by the multiple orgasm techniques and or practice of qigong and meditation. Most of these men have not suffered as extremely as those who describe the worst symptoms in this thread but they have still suffered quite bad from it. One severe case recently made a thread at thetaobums.com and is slowly regaining his health through these methods. He still has problems with it but have gotten quite a lot better.

As this thread is 359 pages long it is difficult for me to know what experience with these methods people here actually have but from some of what I saw mentioned it looked like some very preliminary attempts and then giving up. In order to make these things work you have to do these practices right and they are frequently done wrong. For exxample if you want the type of multiple orgasms presumably most beneficial for people with pois, the karezza style valey orgasm, you have to be totally relaxed and hardly move and the orgasm should feel like something totally different than what you have normally thought of as an orgasm. If you have not experienced that consistently over a period of about a month or so then you have not really tried the method and can not evaluate its effects. Similarly a qigong sequence for the kidneys needs to be practiced for example 10-15 minutes a day for a month or two before it can be evaluated in any meaningful way.

With regards to science, there have been a lot of studies done on qigong in China and many can be found on the web. Several of these go into effects on sexual health, testosterone levels and the like. Even though these seldom have the amount of participants and the double blind randomized set up to qualify as well researched in the way a lot of western medicines or therapies are, they certainly have more scientific validity then a lot of the speculation about science that are found in this thread. What you are doing here is specualting and brainstorming and trying to put puzzles together and then trying to get thorough empirical science done but it seems you have not gotten very far in getting that done yet (understandably as that takes time) but have relied for the most part on what other posters have experienced when trying different stuff. The traditions of qigong, yoga and Tibetan Buddhism have had a keen interest in exactly these matters and thousands of practioners have shared their experiences in great detail over several thosuands of years to come up with effective techniques and theories about how they work. Empirically speaking they have a fairly solid experience on these matters.

Comparing complete celibacy with ejaculatory sex and with multiply orgasmic sex have been of especially keen interest to these traditions as they see the effect this different ways of relating to sex as having very strong effects on general energy levels which in turn affects meditation a lot. Celibacy is regarded as leaving you with significantly more energy and health than ejaculatory sex and (correctly practiced) multiply orgasmic sex as leaving you with substantially more energy and health than celibacy. My teacher after having been celibate for years while living in a monastary started practicing multi orgasmic sex after he became a lay man again and found this to be true. Celibacy gave a huge increase in energy but multiple orgasm with one to two ejaculations a month about doubled the gain from celibacy for him. THis is a common finding but it takes a certain level to be able to practice it well.

After having read some more in this thread I see that there can be more to this in terms of particular hormonal imbalances causing problmes not just the general energy levels and balance of the kidneys etc. Balancing bodily function and especially hormonal issues is precisely what these traditions excel at doing IMO. But to achieve a good result with regards to that you have to practice consistently for several months to see results and if you suffer from something really sever you have to practice for much longer than that to see the big changes. With regards to science, as I mentioned look into the Chinese qigong research and consider that something that can produce such incredible changes in the brain as those found in long term meditators and that can teach you to regulate your boy temperature so that you can sleep comfortably naked in the snow might also be able to produce other powerful effects, especially since that is consistently reported by so many.

[demografx]

it looked like some very preliminary attempts and then giving up.

That is an uninformed remark. I, and others here, have many, many years of practice and experience - to no avail. TCM, Mantak Chia, and much more.

More importantly, there is no solid evidence in the way of scientific studies or other objective evidence of these systems and techniques that prove success, or even a clear linkage to POIS.

Again, this is a Science Forum, but I'm sure you can find many websites and forums that much better accommodate these alternative/Eastern techniques, systems, theories, and approaches.

I will send you the Forum rules by Private Message. Please read it through, especially the sections, "Keep It Science" and "Keep it a Discussion", the latter including a section about 'evangelising pet theories'.

Thank you very much.

[strawberryman]

DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid) fish oil supplement seems to work well for me. Does anybody here had the similar experience with this supplement ?

[demografx]

strawberryman, here are some previous discussions on fish oil at this forum:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=FISH+OIL+pois+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=FISH+OIL+pois+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&gs_rfai=CDH96sKhLTPiwKoL-jQOR2r2zDQAAAKoEBU_Q4qqT&fp=a0e2566896ed0ba7

[strawberryman]

Unbelievable! CNN has just announced that Oprah has quit her talk show!

Z_one, yes, I heard that Oprah quit because she knew that we were about to contact her!  []



"Oh no, it's the Guys From POIS!"

Z_one, all's not lost. Oprah will stay thru 2010. And 2011 she'll simply do her own TV thing, raking in billions more. So    she is still a viable prospect!

....indeed!  []

Z_one, so..........does this mean you'll contact Oprah? And Larry King? (Last year I ran into Larry King outside his office, but I was tongue-tied! [pois lol] )

I just stumbled across this post, and it made me laugh for an hour ...

[demografx]

strawberryman, there were other posts where forum members suggested that we should go on Oprah to publicize POIS. I replied, "I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit across from Oprah while she asks me, 'Demografx (black-masked of course), tell our billions of viewers your POIS experience with masturbation and intercourse!' "

Or the funding organization who suggested very seriously that we raise funds by having a local barbeque/fundraiser: "Oh, sure, let's invite all our neighbors and friends over so that we can ask for money for our problems after orgasm!" []

[GoingCrazy]

Being in and out of POIS is like being to hell and back again.  When you're in the stage you just feel like total s**t and torture.  But when you're out of it it's like you have hope that it will just go away by the next time you have an orgasm... and it doesn't go away, and it keeps on occurring, i dont know how much longer i can deal with this disease before i really start to lose it... and I love how people look at me like I am on some sort of drug or something, like I am not living my life to its fullest potential, really degrading... I really cant wait for this doctors statements/results to come out.  I'm just going to tell people i have split personality disorder... The POIS personality and the "me" personality.

[demografx]

I love how people look at me like I am on some sort of drug or something, like I am not living my life to its fullest potential, really degrading.

I know it's hard, but try to relax, we're making progress! Very exciting 2010: 2 new POIS studies plus Dr Waldinger re-surfacing!

GC, my experience with your statement above: after 30+ years of this garbage, I slowly realized that it's not THEM looking at me, it's ME looking at ME!

As my former psychiatrist, now a friend, told me wisely: "When you're in POIS, expect LESS of yourself." And to that I add, "without self-judgement."

[Animus]

The issues you are suffering is [sic] wellknown in both the yoga and qigong tradition and in tradtitional chineese [sic], indian and tibetan medicine...Dr lins technique...

We have had very little success with this, and Dr Lin and his "actionlove" have been thoroughly invalidated here, numerous times.

We try to be open, but this really is a Science Forum, and as such our focus continues to be on empirical-scientific methods to arrive at a cure for POIS.

...sleep comfortably naked in the snow might also be able to produce other powerful effects, especially since that is consistently reported by so many.

I just wanted to add that these abilities to control one's own biology through meditation are rare... and most of us don't have these abilities.
Also, I'm just repeating what demo said, but i think we're trying to find out the science behind this illness.

[Vandemolen3]

Vandemolen, I thought you might be interested in our numerous past discussions here about cortisol:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&gs_rfai=C8h4Xh2lLTLmIB4mgjQPXy9mMDwAAAKoEBU_QJUjZ&fp=a0e2566896ed0ba7

Ok thanks.
I've got a new question. When people have their cortisol checked, is that a day after an O? I think that's important. Because I think the body of a POIS-patient will have less cortisol. A normal person can make cortisol very quick. But if a POIS-patient wait a few days after an O for the cortisol check, it might be a normal level.

[daveman]

The issues you are suffering is [sic] wellknown in both the yoga and qigong tradition and in tradtitional chineese [sic], indian and tibetan medicine...Dr lins technique...

We have had very little success with this, and Dr Lin and his "actionlove" have been thoroughly invalidated here, numerous times.

We try to be open, but this really is a Science Forum, and as such our focus continues to be on empirical-scientific methods to arrive at a cure for POIS.

...sleep comfortably naked in the snow might also be able to produce other powerful effects, especially since that is consistently reported by so many.

I just wanted to add that these abilities to control one's own biology through meditation are rare... and most of us don't have these abilities.
Also, I'm just repeating what demo said, but i think we're trying to find out the science behind this illness.

Real meditation is a very personal, reflexive, interactive practice, taking advantage of heightened states of consciousness. Any intent to use it to force or implement some state dictated by an external guide is little more than hypnotism, and very potentially dangerous.

Some of the practices named above by Yogi, in my case cause severe POIS reactions. I cannot perform orgasms without ejaculation, they cause a retrograde flow that sends my system to hell and back. That's my case, and that's my point! How can someone be so irresponsible as to say point blank, without medical knowledge of an individual what is good for him.

Some guided meditations, if they are directed at helping people look at themselves, without any directives as to what should be seen, felt or changed are certainly a different case. Meditation is a tool to self understanding and self knowledge. Anyone teaching meditation should only show his students how to come into better contact with their own Self.

Now I must go and meditate to lower my blood-pressure!

[horizon]

Demo,
Have you (or anyone) tried Dostinex to reduce Prolactin or POIS after orgasm?

[Counterpoints]

Demo,
Have you (or anyone) tried Dostinex to reduce Prolactin or POIS after orgasm?

Yes, I tried cabergoline (Dostinex).  It has a long half like, so you can take 0.5 mg once/week, and its effects will be strong throughout the week.  I took it for 2 months. 

It increased sexual pleasure, and seemed to slightly increase recovery time.  I did not have a profound effect on POIS though, and I didn't really like the feeling of being on the drug.

I do encourage others to experiment though, under the supervision of their medical doctor.

[Counterpoints]

Vandemolen, I thought you might be interested in our numerous past discussions here about cortisol:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1DAUS_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=cortisol+POIS+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&gs_rfai=C8h4Xh2lLTLmIB4mgjQPXy9mMDwAAAKoEBU_QJUjZ&fp=a0e2566896ed0ba7

Ok thanks.
I've got a new question. When people have their cortisol checked, is that a day after an O? I think that's important. Because I think the body of a POIS-patient will have less cortisol. A normal person can make cortisol very quick. But if a POIS-patient wait a few days after an O for the cortisol check, it might be a normal level.

My 24 hr urine cortisol has tested very high, about 5 times the normal value.  Others who have tested here tend to be in the normal-high range.  The only person I remember being low on cortisol is girlwind.

[demografx]

           

         
                        Wait, perhaps we should reconsider?

[demografx]

Now I must go and meditate to lower my blood-pressure!

Daveman, I'm with you. The one and only good thing to come out of my decades of "Eastern" experimentation is that I can effectively put myself to sleep now by simply repeating a silly mantra (TM'ers swore me to secrecy not to divulge [it's "aing"] and it cost me $25, ...a lot of money in the 70s! [] )