[daveman]

Very interesting!  So, even if silodosin was not fully a 'magic bullet' for you, it does seem to demonstrate that it is not orgasm, but fluid release, that causes POIS.

Since you've said:
Orgasm + no pre-ejaculate + no semen = zero symptoms.
And, orgasm + pre-ejaculate + no semen = only the symptoms that you'd have with pre-ejaculate leakage without orgasm.
That is to say, in both of these cases, the orgasm itself causes zero additional symptoms.

Thus, it really does seem like "movement of semen" is the main culprit.  And, for those of us who do not react to pre-ejaculate leakage, a 'dry' silodosin orgasm would mean: no symptoms!

So, even if silodosin is not the ultimate solution in terms of treatment of POIS, it seems like it has been very fruitful in contributing to our understanding of POIS.  Who would have thought that it would be possible to so easily test the effects of orgasm as distinguished from ejaculation? 

It also seems that this could provide a structure for a very easy research study for Dr. Waldinger or another researcher: he could simply have his 45 Dutch patients (or other POIS sufferers) take silodosin for three days, have a semen-less orgasm, and then report the effects.  (Or technically, for a double-blind survey, half the patients could be given silodosin, and half could be given a sugar pill.)  And, voila, another article can be published!

And, beyond just POIS, this could also contribute interesting findings to our understanding of the physiology of male sexuality on a broader level.

Aside from the silodosin, it opens for tests on all of the male contraceptive methods. There are those who's side effects are practicaly nulo. And each one has a slight shade of difference which would help to isolate sperm from semen etc.

I hope Dr. Waldinger runs with this. He at least doen't have to worry about us complaining of "encroachment". We WANT success! He's in a better condition to test whatever he likes. For us, it's difficult to find doctors willing to write the perscriptions and do the tests.

[daveman]

In POIS some people have weak legs and lower back pain. These are very significant symptoms for me.
Weak legs to the point my legs are shaking when climbing a ladder.
When I was a teen, constantly in POIS, I couldn't climb a very high ladder and walk on a sloped roof.

Also I very clearly have weak legs DURING an orgasm.

Interestingly there is a disease called "Transverse Myelitis" causing weak legs, lower back pain and other symptoms including bladder dysfunction. Scientists say it's caused by spinal cord inflammation  (nerve linked with orgasm). Some diseases are associated with transverse myelitis: Lyme disease, viruses, autoimmune or vascular conditions (blood flow), there is more in the first link below. One third of patients have flu-like symptoms.

http://www.myelitis.org/tm.htm
http://www.brainandspine.org.uk/information/publications/brain_and_spine_booklets/transverse_myelitis/tests_and.html

I don't say POIS have this disease but I now think POIS or a part of it has to do with spinal cord inflammation.

I used to get really bad burning lower back sensations, there is still there now but not as bad.

When I've had a bad one, like when I have partial retro-e I have that phantom leg feeling. It's like an itch or dull movement sensation when there is nothing. I have to change position to make it stop, and then it;s only very temporary. That seems that it has something to do with the spinal cord, or nerve stimulation at some remote point.

[Guthrie]

   Very interesting!  So, even if silodosin was not fully a 'magic bullet' for you, it does seem to demonstrate that it is not orgasm, but fluid release, that causes POIS. 

Aside from the silodosin, it opens for tests on all of the male contraceptive methods. There are those who's side effects are practicaly nulo. And each one has a slight shade of difference which would help to isolate sperm from semen etc.  I hope Dr. Waldinger runs with this. He at least doen't have to worry about us complaining of "encroachment". We WANT success! He's in a better condition to test whatever he likes. For us, it's difficult to find doctors willing to write the perscriptions and do the tests.  

 

Daveman, very good point!  We've now apparently separated orgasm from sperm/semen, and now the next step is to separate semen from sperm.  And, in that regard, it seems like a contraceptive that prevents spermatogenesis (like, for instance, the testosterone/progesterone combo) could do the trick, and could allow us to test the effects of ejaculation with spermless semen.    So, it might be that the culprit is not sperm, but the other components of semen -- or vice-versa! 

[daveman]

If we loose our sperm (finding the recipient, or a helping hand so to speak), we naturally want to replenish it. But, we also begin POIS (because of this allergy we have). In POIS the whole auto-immune system is on alert. We see this, as whatever sensitivity we migh have flares up more easily. So we are highly sensitive to the new production phase of POIS. And this accentuates the Type IV reaction. With Type IV we are now into a cell mediated process that works more universally.

If the recuperation process is fast, we nip the Type IV process in the bud. This process eliminates the original offenders rapidly. And we move to the begining of the cycle where we want to find that "recipient" again. Oh my, those are beautiful eyes you have...!

Daveman, can you explain more about why you think that a faster recuperation process is linked to nipping the type IV process in the bud?   By 'recuperation', do you mean the production of new sperm?  How would this stop a type IV reaction that has already been started?

Well it's just a gut feeling, but I feel as though the strength and length of the Type IV reaction depends on the strength of the attacking body. If I have retrograde ejaculation for instance, there's more semen in my body where it shouldn't be. It seems as though it takes longer and the effect is worse in that case. If it's a good "O" and there has been little invasion, the time to recover is shorter. I can almost predict just after the "O". how long it's going to last.

So trying to find the unified theory and going by what Demo says and others who are help with "T" , a quick recovery could mean that the exposure is lessened.

Perhaps if my "O" is good, (or in the case of others, that the gap is not where it causes heavy POIS initially), my body fights off the Type IV quickly, so that it is weak and/or short. And with the sperm "recuperation" being fast (with "T"), there's even lesser exposure and a lesser field of attackers.

If the sperm "recuperation" is slow, the Type IV reaction extends to pick up on the newly produced sperm (as it seems to have the whole body more on alert).

If the sperm "recuperation" is fast, the new sperm is safe in it's protected environment before the Type IV even starts. So the immune system has much less work to do and recuperates quickly.

If I understand the immune system, which I'll gladly admit I don't, it needs very few attackers to start a reaction, but the extent of the reaction depends on the strength of the attacking force. In a cold for instance, the force builds up because it takes a long time for the anti-body to be awoken. Once it senses the attacker it starts its messaging to transfor cels to attack the attacker. New cells produce more messengers to produce more counter-attackers. But if the attacking force is weak, the chain slows and stops.

Sperm, unlike cold viruses, don't multiply. The field is fixed. It potentially increases just after "O" because the system signals a regeneration.

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

As I mentioned, perhaps I'm in Wonderland with Alice. One thing's sure, I'm in POIS, and the mind.....

[Guthrie]

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

Hmmm, I still don't see why new sperm would be 'exposed' during the regeneration process, and only 'protected' once the process  finishes.

However, there could be other factors through which one could draw a connection to sperm regeneration--for instance, after an ejaculation, the body might produce certain "MAKE MORE SPERM" hormones.  And, the auto-immune response might not be in reaction to the new sperm (or even to the old sperm), but to those hormones.  And, once the new sperm have been formed, those hormones might turn off, and POIS would stop.  So, if there is faster regeneration, the hormones will get turned off sooner, and so POIS would be shorter.

In other words, we know that POIS occurs when semen/sperm is ejaculated.  But, the reaction might not be only to the semen/sperm itself, but also to other substances that are produced or turned on at the same time as ejaculation occurs. 

That is to say, we might want to focus not only or not primarily on the semen/sperm as a substance, but on the ejaculation and movement of semen/sperm as a process/event, which could involve many other chemical substances in addition to the sperm/semen.

[daveman]

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

Hmmm, I still don't see why new sperm would be 'exposed' during the regeneration process, and only 'protected' once the process  finishes.

However, there could be other factors through which one could draw a connection to sperm regeneration--for instance, after an ejaculation, the body might produce certain "MAKE MORE SPERM" hormones.  And, the auto-immune response might not be in reaction to the new sperm (or even to the old sperm), but to those hormones.  And, once the new sperm have been formed, those hormones might turn off, and POIS would stop.  So, if there is faster regeneration, the hormones will get turned off sooner, and so POIS would be shorter.

In other words, we know that POIS occurs when semen/sperm is ejaculated.  But, the reaction might not be only to the semen/sperm itself, but also to other substances that are produced or turned on at the same time as ejaculation occurs. 

That is to say, we might want to focus not only or not primarily on the semen/sperm as a substance, but on the ejaculation and movement of semen/sperm as a process/event, which could involve many other chemical substances in addition to the sperm/semen.

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

Hmmm, I still don't see why new sperm would be 'exposed' during the regeneration process, and only 'protected' once the process  finishes.

However, there could be other factors through which one could draw a connection to sperm regeneration--for instance, after an ejaculation, the body might produce certain "MAKE MORE SPERM" hormones.  And, the auto-immune response might not be in reaction to the new sperm (or even to the old sperm), but to those hormones.  And, once the new sperm have been formed, those hormones might turn off, and POIS would stop.  So, if there is faster regeneration, the hormones will get turned off sooner, and so POIS would be shorter.

In other words, we know that POIS occurs when semen/sperm is ejaculated.  But, the reaction might not be only to the semen/sperm itself, but also to other substances that are produced or turned on at the same time as ejaculation occurs. 

That is to say, we might want to focus not only or not primarily on the semen/sperm as a substance, but on the ejaculation and movement of semen/sperm as a process/event, which could involve many other chemical substances in addition to the sperm/semen.

Sounds like reasonable possiblility.

All I can say about the exposure during sperm regeneration is that, the doctor who did my revesal warned me that sperm in the epididimus would be attacked by antibodies once the reversal was done. His preocupation was for the potential lack of resulting fertility.

Apparantly it isn't attacked in the "sperm sacs" (don't remember the proper term right now.

But anyways, your alternative should definitly be investigated as well. It has better potential I think to fit a all encompassing theory. Just one doubt? There probably wouldn't be any of those hormones in the semen that produces a reaction in the skinprick.

[Guthrie]

Sounds like reasonable possiblility.

All I can say about the exposure during sperm regeneration is that, the doctor who did my revesal warned me that sperm in the epididimus would be attacked by antibodies once the reversal was done. His preocupation was for the potential lack of resulting fertility.

Apparantly it isn't attacked in the "sperm sacs" (don't remember the proper term right now.

But anyways, your alternative should definitly be investigated as well. It has better potential I think to fit a all encompassing theory. Just one doubt? There probably wouldn't be any of those hormones in the semen that produces a reaction in the skinprick.

Daveman, that is interesting about the sperm being attacked in the epididymis rather than in the 'sperm sacs.'  At the very least, it's good to keep in mind that there there are various places where the 'problem' could be occurring.

And, you are right that the 'other' hormones probably wouldn't be present in a skin-prck test with semen.  But, the overall effect could still result from chain-reaction set off by the semen, which then brings in other hormonal components.  So it could potentially be somewhat complex.

And, I'm not fully convinced that the skin-prck test with semen is necessarily that indicative--since we don't know yet whether non-POIS people might also have a reaction to a skin-prck with their own semen as well!  So, not to dismiss it, but there is a still a major methodological step that needs to be tested for.

[daveman]

So, not to dismiss it, but there is a still a major methodological step that needs to be tested for.

No doubt about it! I'd even go so far as to make that plural!

[demografx]

We've all talked about the horrendous POIS symptoms that last forever...have we found any information on what "normal" orgasm does to people...afterwards?

Is it just a short-lived drowsy glow, or is there more to it than that?

Could you repeat the question in other words???  []

I'll try.

My question is, "What is postorgasmic life like for "normals", i.e., non-POISers?"

Another way to put it: what are we all aspiring to? Is postorgasmic life 100% symptom-free? Or are there varying degrees of "POIS" out there? Such as Howard Stern, the DJ with a big mouth for sexuality, who says on the air that after orgasm, he goes into a coma-type sleep, no one can wake him. I got that example from our friend Stefanie at NORD, who, along with the author/researcher/forum friend Marnia Robinson believes that there is a huge population out there of people who react negatively to orgasm, albeit not at the level of suffering of the average member of this forum.

[daveman]

We've all talked about the horrendous POIS symptoms that last forever...have we found any information on what "normal" orgasm does to people...afterwards?

Is it just a short-lived drowsy glow, or is there more to it than that?

Could you repeat the question in other words???  []

I'll try.

My question is, "What is postorgasmic life like for "normals", i.e., non-POISers?"

Another way to put it: what are we all aspiring to? Is postorgasmic life 100% symptom-free? Or are there varying degrees of "POIS" out there? Such as Howard Stern, the DJ with a big mouth for sexuality, who says on the air that after orgasm, he goes into a coma-type sleep, no one can wake him. I got that example from our friend Stefanie at NORD, who, along with the author/researcher/forum friend Marnia Robinson believes that there is a huge population out there of people who react negatively to orgasm, albeit not at the level of suffering of ther average member of this forum.

Well at least for me, and I'm lucky enough to be able to say it, that before POIS, I had no negative after effects what-so-ever. I can't even remember having "sex hangovers" when I was younger and had two or three girlfriends at a time.

The worst I guess was "lover's nuts" if one of them would shut the door.....  she wouldn't last long though

There are probably many who went more overboard than I though. Perhaps heavy excess has greater repercusions. I guess there are whole internet communities that get into that.

[rock27]

@ Demo: my brother doesn't have a single negative feeling / downer after orgasm at all.
@ Vandermolen: Did you ask the Waldinger team about the rush desensitivation?

[demografx]

Over 1,000,000 views!!!!

Demo, were you a moderator on this forum before to the POIS thread started? (if you were, maybe pois isnt that rare, i mean, what are the chances..).

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question?

before john21 posted the first POIS question, were you already a moderator on the forum, or did you become a moderator after that post?

Im asking because, what are the chances that an existing moderator has the same "rare disease/problem" which somebody asks about... behind the reason for the question is trying to get a sense of how rare POIS is/or not...
a rare disease is defined as fewer than 5 people per every 10,000 people...

OK, now I understand. I became moderator several months afterward. John's post caught my attention just like everyone else's here (either John's or someone else's post).

But even if I were a non-POIS moderator before, unfortunately it doesn't prove anything because it is based on only one person (me), and it could have well been a teriffic coincidence.

[demografx]

@ Demo: my brother doesn't have a single negative feeling / downer after orgasm at all.

Rock, that's amazing. Thank you!

[demografx]

There are probably many who went more overboard [sexually] than I though. Perhaps heavy excess has greater repercusions. I guess there are whole internet communities that get into that.

Including ours []

Seriously, though, thanks for your experiences and insight!

[demografx]

BTW, this also shows me that maybe I didn't have POIS for 50 years, which I sometimes wonder about. (I simply can't connect the dots from sex-to-POIS beyond 30 years ago).

I'll stick to my " 30+ years of POIS  "

If anyone here thinks I'm a super-young guy, they need remedial math  []

[daveman]

BTW, this also shows me that maybe I didn't have POIS for 50 years, which I sometimes wonder about. (I simply can't connect the dots from sex-to-POIS beyond 30 years ago).

I'll stick to my " 30+ years of POIS  "

If anyone here thinks I'm a super-young guy, they need remedial math  []

I guess you just seem like it.

[lauracostis]

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

Hmmm, I still don't see why new sperm would be 'exposed' during the regeneration process, and only 'protected' once the process  finishes.

However, there could be other factors through which one could draw a connection to sperm regeneration--for instance, after an ejaculation, the body might produce certain "MAKE MORE SPERM" hormones.  And, the auto-immune response might not be in reaction to the new sperm (or even to the old sperm), but to those hormones.  And, once the new sperm have been formed, those hormones might turn off, and POIS would stop.  So, if there is faster regeneration, the hormones will get turned off sooner, and so POIS would be shorter.

In other words, we know that POIS occurs when semen/sperm is ejaculated.  But, the reaction might not be only to the semen/sperm itself, but also to other substances that are produced or turned on at the same time as ejaculation occurs. 

That is to say, we might want to focus not only or not primarily on the semen/sperm as a substance, but on the ejaculation and movement of semen/sperm as a process/event, which could involve many other chemical substances in addition to the sperm/semen.

Guthrie, I have said this before, but you have a good logical research mind.  Focusing on shutting down the entire process of spermatogenesis is a logical step.  As for the the skin prik tests, we have only had one successful test so far.  Besides, we do not know if injecting semen intradermally in to a normal person without pois will cause a reaction.  Sperm are not exact copies of the donor, they under go meiosis, not mitosis.  cells that under go meiosis only have one set of chromosomes and they are mixed and match around to cause variation.  So the body should recognize sperm cells as foreign invaders when they are injected into any ones skin.  Maybe there is someone here who is already on testosterone who might be willing to add progesterone for a month or two to see what happens when the body completely shuts down sperm production.  I do not think that it matters whether you are one of the people who believes Dr. Waldingers theory or if you are one who believes in something similar that involves sperm.  shutting down the entire process is going to tell us some important information.  For the people who are on testosterone right now, the cure could be at your fingertips.  High levels of testosterone shut down the production of sperm anyways, thats probably why you are feeling better. why not take the sperm shut down to 100% BY ADDING PROGESTERONE.

[Vandemolen3]

@ Vandermolen: Did you ask the Waldinger team about the rush desensitivation?

They began to talk themselves about this subject. But not in relation with POIS. But as a future possibility for POIS. Then I didn't know about the woman with semen allergy who was treated in 1 day. Next time I see them I will bring this subject up.

[martin88]

I already talked about this before but there's a new fact:
Concerning the positive skin prik test:
Semen contains prolactin.
Prolactin is highly related with the immune system, just google "prolactin immune system" or "prolactin autoimmune", there's a lot of results.

The immune system of POIS sufferers can eventually react to prolactin released at orgasm, and to prolactin in sperm during the skin prik test, I'm still wondering if this makes sense.

prolactin and immune system:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r420718v3u778361/

Abstract
We showed for the first time that prolactin stimulates the synthesis and release of immunomodulating cytokines and lymphocyte-activating factors (e.g., interleukin-1) by peritoneal macrophages. Prolactin abolished the stress-induced inhibition of proliferation of peripheral blood lymphocytes and increased cell sensitivity to regulatory effects of interleukin-1 in the reaction of lymphocyte blast transformation. These data illustrate the mechanism of immunoprotective activity of prolactin during stress

[demografx]

BTW, this also shows me that maybe I didn't have POIS for 50 years, which I sometimes wonder about. (I simply can't connect the dots from sex-to-POIS beyond 30 years ago).

I'll stick to my " 30+ years of POIS  "

If anyone here thinks I'm a super-young guy, they need remedial math  []

I guess you just seem like it.

Young man, flattery will get you  _everywhere_  .