[B_Daniel]

Part 2:

I still think there's something to Herman's mineral imbalance theory.  I've done a good amount of reading about it.  It basically stems from work that Dr. Paul Eck did many years back that mineral imbalances can lead to a wide range of problems.  The main imbalance is copper toxicity, which can cause fatigue, brainfog, and anxiety.  Herman claims that fixing his copper toxicity has cured him.  If you google copper toxicity, you can find a lot of accounts of people who claim to have gotten better from it.  There was a guy on this site this last month who claimed that he found that his pois was nothing more than pyroluria and that b6 and zinc cured him.  Zinc and B6 are copper antagonists.  So maybe there's a connection there with his success story too.

So to get a hair test, you basically find a hair mineral analysis specialist on dr. wilson's website http://drlwilson.com/do%20hair%20analysis.htm   For $125-$250 bucks (depending upon who you use), you can get your hair sample analyzed.  The main minerals tested are magnesium, calcium, potassium, and sodium.  If those are off, you know you have a copper isssue.  Directly testing copper isn't very reliable.  The practitioner I'm using isn't on dr. wilson's approved list.  her name is theresa vernon   http://www.tvernonlac.com/.  I contacted her to ask about copper toxicity and ended up having a 30min telephone call with her and feel very good about her vs the other ppl on dr. wilsons site.  theresa is more expensive ($200), but she's been practicing a long time and seems very knowledgeable.  i asked her why hair analysis, why can't she look at my blood tests.  Her response was that our bodies need our blood to be in good shape bc blood is our lifeline.  Since our bodies are very efficient, they are able to sacrifice the organs and whatnot in order to keep our blood healthy.  She says problems with the blood only show up when your body is in life threatening or extremely bad conditions.  So this is why they do the hair test instead.  So all that seemed to make a bit of sense to me so I sent my hair sample in and am starting to go down this path (haven't gotten it back yet). 

The negative:
If I'm looking for an approach that's recognized in the medical community, this is not it.  The one person who's written a book on copper toxicity, dr. ann louise gittleman, got her nutritional doctorate from some hocus pocus college.  If you search the web, there's very little info on the biochemistry behind the hair mineral analysis test and all of dr. wilson's stuff.  The only explanation for that is that if Wilson released all the info on how this stuff works, then he couldn't make money charging people for instructions on what to do.  So that REALLY annoys me and smells of a scam.   i told my GF about Theresa Vernon's quote about the body sacrificing itself to save the blood, and she laughed and laughed and laughed until she started tearing up, then she laughed some more. 

So is this complete Bullshit?  Herman seems to feel very positively about all of it.  Plus, another positive indicator is that I have been taking B6 and Zinc for the last 3 weeks, per Herman's advice, and my anxiety does seem to be improving - although brainfog hasn't improved much.  I guess more time will tell.

So that's really it.  This process of chelating and dumping copper from my system could take anywhere from 2 months to a few years, depending upon how bad my case is.  I should likely feel better though within a few months.  Still, what's so frustrating about this is that  there's not only no medical evidence surrounding this, but that I have to take this big leap of faith and I won't know for many months if it's working and I can rely upon it.  All that said, the reason I post this, is that I wanted ya'll to be aware of what I'm up to.  Over the last 2 years now, ya'll have seen me feel try different things like B vitamins, Testosterone, Wellbutrin, Sam-E, which have all helped me at least temporarily feel a bit better.  That said, I've never been on anything that has had me feeling anywhere near perfect for more than a couple days.  So IF I experience considerable improvement for a 2 week period, i'll of course let you all know. 

I don't think I've made a great case here for others to try this, but if anyone else wants to call theresa vernon and at least get their hair tested, i personally think it'd be worth a shot.  Would be nice to have more company exploring this path.  So far Nomore2013 is the only one i know doing this as well.     

[B_Daniel]

One last thing. I just want to give my Congratulations to all those who have helped with the nord efforts on pois center.   I dont share some people's extreme optimism with regards to this study, but nevertheless i think every one of us supports research and we should be very proud of this pretty major accomplishment together.

[Vincent M]

Nice update, Daniel. What dosage and form of B6 and zinc are you taking?

[RD]

So to get a hair test, you basically find a hair mineral analysis specialist on dr. wilson's website http://drlwilson.com/do%20hair%20analysis.htm   For $125-$250 bucks (depending upon who you use)

Commercial Hair Analysis:
A Cardinal Sign of Quackery

... Hair analysis is worthless for assessing the body's nutritional status or serving as a basis for dietary or supplement recommendations. Nor should it be routinely used to screen people for heavy metal toxicity. Should you encounter a practitioner who uses hair analysis for any of these purposes, run for the nearest exit and complain to your state attorney general!

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/hair.html

BTW
 have you seen what "dr. wilson's" IP neighbours are selling ?, this one looks like re-branded holy-water ...

Angelic Essences™ are made from water to which energy of a high vibration and from higher dimensions is transmitted. It is like pattern of prayer and love that is interwoven with water. This essence is provided to this world through mutual work of beings of higher dimensions .

[onelongwar]

Hi, I posted here a while ago with my jaw problems and their relation to my POIS and wet dreams, here's an update.

What I wish I'd done a few years ago is listen to a friend who suggested that my symptoms suggested sleep apnea.  I thought that was very unlikely as I don't snore much, am thin, young etc.  It turns out that the myth about sleep apnea being mainly for fat old men has long been disproven, with all ages from young children upwards being diagnosed with Obstructive Sleep Apnea  or Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome: both sleep breathing disorders.

So now I've been diagnosed as having least one of the above, and my orthodontist(s) have done what they should have done three years ago and admitted that they can't do anything for me: I need jaw surgery in order to open my airway properly.

I've now tried CPAP (constant positive airway pressure), which gave me a couple of days of feeling amazing with lots of energy and sexuality, just like El Stonio who also reported POIS caused by sleep apnea:

--- Quote from: El Stonio on 02/08/2009 18:39:26 ---
Hello All,
It's been a while since I've been here.  In the past I've had some moderate success with going to a mostly vegan diet etc.  Buy recently I had a sleep study done and found I had sleep apnea.  Last week I started wearing a TAP, an oral appliance that prevents your tongue from closing off air to your lungs.  Guess what?  My symptoms of POIS are gone, no exaggerating.  (I've been testing, haha.  I had sex Friday and Saturday nite and this Sunday morning jogged/hiked 10 miles.)  In the past I'd be flat on my back craving carbs, feeling depressed and sick.  This may not be everybody's solution but I urge anyone who hasnt had a sleep study to DO IT!  I tried the CPAP but that was so intrusive I laughed it off.  The TAP is aggreeable with me.  Good luck everyone.  Keep searching. Your bodies if they get the right stuff, will work correctly.  I just may get to start dating again  [] 
El Stonio


--- End quote ---


This didn't last long with my body becoming increasingly intolerant of the air being pushed up my nose at night.  The great feelings went away, as did my libido, but I continued to have no wet dreams while on CPAP which was amazing.  I'm finally totally off it cos I just can't tolerate it anymore and am waiting for an appointment to see a sleep doc about trying a more sophisticated machine like Bi-PAP.

Here's one of the many links to articles about testosterone, sex and sleep apea on google.

newbielink:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-michael-j-breus/testosterone-sleep-sexual-health_b_981121.html [nonactive]

So yeah, those who suffer from CFS, insomnia, decreased libido, ED, morning headaches, morning fatigue, GERD, morning IBS/diarrhea, TMJ etc are prime candidates for OSA/UARS.

Dr Steven Park, who is one of the foremost clinicians in this area, goes into some depth on the issue here.

newbielink:http://doctorstevenpark.com/tired-of-being-tired-%E2%80%94-the-upper-airway-resistance-syndrome [nonactive]

One

[kurtosis]

My sleep study showed I was generating a lot of mucus but I couldn't tolerate the CPAP machine.
N-Acetyl Cysteine is a mucolytic and is a precursor for glutathione. Glutathione is an anti-oxidant, a tripeptide and is used in a number of detox reactions in the body. It's useful stuff! Alpha Lipoic Acid can help recycle glutathione. Its synthesis from cysteine uses ATP (basically, that's cellular energy) and the reduction (adding an electron) of oxidised glutathione uses NADPH. (All these things are connected of course).

I've found that a modest amount of supplementary N-Acetyl Cysteine is helpful at helping me breath more easily and is less expensive and hassle than the CPAP machine.
It appears to increase the effectiveness of b vitamins and gives me more energy. The wikipedia article on it is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcysteine

[acronym]

Yes, that's a good point. I believe that both blueberries and ginkgo can reduce inflammation. I like ginkgo but it sometimes makes me itchy whereas blueberries or pterostilbene (there's a patented extract in some supplements) seem to reduce POIS and I haven't noticed any side effects.

Kurtosis, both blueberries and ginkgo have been good for me. I find blueberries are not as good for me as they used to be when I was younger though...even the organic ones. Ginko is expensive these days (I buy it in liquid tonic form).
The only other food that stands out as a tonic food for me in regards to pois is liver. I take lambs liver not beef or chicken. Have you eaten lambs fry much before?

[acronym]

Kurtosis I have not had any gene testing done yet, and I have been trying to 2nd guess things on the Methylation cycle with different supplements and its not easy. I feel worse on many things.
If you get time maybe you can do this test...
http://personalitycafe.com/personality-test-resources/7688-how-chemically-balanced-your-brain.html
I am GABA dominant but I am high deficient in dopamine and acetylchloline (how much I abstained from having Os would influence my answers on this test for sure from past experience). When I first got pois, I would doubt I was GABA dominant because I had strong motivation and so stressed and anxious most of the time.

[kurtosis]

Hi Aconym,
OK, interesting test. I'm dopamine dominant but have signs of deficiency in acetylcholine and some deficiency in GABA. However, when "POIS" is worst I'd feel symptoms of dopamine deficiency as defined by the test. Perhaps that's why POIS has been so obvious cognitively to me. Its effect is in direct opposition to how I am "out of POIS".
However, I'm not sure any of us are ever truly out of POIS.

I've also found that eating liver is good and increases energy.  Do you know that liver was used as the original treatment for pernicious anemia. The wikipedia entry describes how George Whipple identified the illness and attempted to treat it with raw liver.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernicious_anemia

[kurtosis]

And NO this is not an encouragement for anybody to eat raw liver (before someone suggests it

[nathan123]

Hi, 

Good news to everyone,  after continuous failure in my attempt,  i finally find the cause for my POIS.  It is excess amount of Estrogen in the body.  Average range of Estrogen in male is 10 to 40 pg/ml whereas my findings is 54.44 leading to excess estrogen in the body.  Further I have low testerstone levels (not deficient).  This abonormal hormone levels in the body causes POIS for me.  Now the next target is to balance between the same i.e. reduce the estrogen and increase the testertone. 

Further, Demo is cured by taking TRT that means high Testertone low estrogen.  this theory also works out here. 

[meteo74]

I hope it does work...
we are waiting you for more
thank you nathan

[B_Daniel]

I hope it works too.  The unfortunate question which I propose is whether your Low T/ High E is the cause or pois or another one of its nasty symptoms.  I took T and it helped me for a very short period of time, then stopped helping.  Perhaps the T/E plays more of a primary role in your pois so it certainly could work.  Keep us posted

[B_Daniel]

Nice update, Daniel. What dosage and form of B6 and zinc are you taking?

50mg of zinc and an active b50 complex - both 3x a day.  As evidenced by Demo's Testosterone helping him but not others, niacin helping some but not all, Kurtosis' methylation helping some but not others - i think there are multiple cases of pois - and i don't advise anyone do the zinc and B6 thing without working with herman.  That quackwatch article that Neilep posted provided pretty convincing evidence against hair testing and what I'm doing.  maybe ya'll are better off waiting a couple months and getting a more definitive account from me before going down this path.

[RD]

That quackwatch article that Neilep posted provided pretty convincing evidence against hair testing ...

Not Neilep, just "Neilep level Member" ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg405684#msg405684

[kurtosis]

Kurtosis' methylation helping some hurting others

Who did it hurt?

[B_Daniel]

Kurtosis' methylation helping some hurting others

Who did it hurt?

My thought was just that some people are over-methylators. Ive edited my original statement bc youre right, didnt/ wouldnt hurt anyone.   and it helped me, thats for sure. Just trying to make the point that we're not all the same

[kurtosis]

Kurtosis' methylation helping some hurting others

Who did it hurt?

Well if you're an over-methylator and take sam-e, that'll make you worse, no? perhaps hurt was a poor choice of words, but didnt Jon try it and have to quickly stop

Hey it helped me, thats for sure. Just trying to make the point that we're not all the same

Not 100% sure about Jon. The methylation idea involves doing some genetic tests, seeing what mutations turn up, and adding / subtracting some supplements based on that. Taking SAMe is just one way of knowing if someone doesn't have enough SAMe.

[Gbolduev]

Dear friend  and Nathan/

Testosterone shots are worthless/    Estrogen  dominance  is  copper imbalance/   Copper  equals  estrogen.  Zinc  equals  progesterone/     I keep telling you this  all for months now.  But you dont get it..  All this methylation   gene expresions,  HPAT axis  all  depend on  copper zinc thing/    Most of you  if not all of you  have pyroluria .  It is a  fact/  And  pyroluria is not cured only by zinc B6,  it depends which  side you are ,   either dopamine dominant or  serotonin  dominant/ 
 
Nathan in your case your thyroid  looks shut down as I told you before.   what will testosterone do  to you ?   decrease your  LH even furthur/    You are crazy if you do those shots/

[Gbolduev]

Nathan  ,  you will  take testosterone and  most of it will convert back to DHT and estrogen /     fix your  copper imbalance  my friend  and you wont be estrogen  dominant/   Also   adrenals glands  when they are tired they use  progesterone to form cortisol,   when that happens  your body uses a lot of zinc  to do that and also  progesterone levels decrease,   this was   you become  estrogen dominant/    What does  testosterone has to do with it?    Shots will help you  for a little while and  then you will be even more estrogen  dominant.    DONT DO THIS/ 

You have to block  SBHG -  DHT -Estrogen bindings    with zinc  and  support your adrenals  by taking the stress off of them( with Calcium and Magnesium)  ,  and your estrogen dominance will  evaporate in  weeks/

Unreal how people just go for hormones,  Your LH and FSH levels are non existant now as it is, since your  hypotalamus  adrenal testicles axis is  totally blocked now.   Taking  testostrone  will  lower it even more.