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Origin of magnetic force

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Offline Spring Theory

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #100 on: 20/04/2023 20:35:57 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/07/2022 16:33:43
Quote from: Spring Theory on 09/07/2022 14:22:22
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/07/2022 13:33:09
Quote from: Spring Theory on 09/07/2022 13:26:40
Incorrect.  Never been tested. Positrons find an electron too quickly.
You are right; your statement there is incorrect.
It has been tested.
The positrons  in accelerators are stable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Electron%E2%80%93Positron_Collider

Were you not aware of what is probably one of the best known bits of scientific kit in the world?


Pretty useless comment, but I will attempt to penetrate the steel trap...

Show me a similar test like the Kamiokande experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

No.
That's not the way it works.
You are the one making the extraordinary claim.
Responsibility to show that your idea is right falls to you.
Show us your extraordinary evidence.


I'm only here to make extraordinary predictions.  Leave it to the experimentalists to do the testing.  I can't do everything and leave nothing else for others.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #101 on: 20/04/2023 22:51:27 »
Quote from: Spring Theory on 20/04/2023 20:35:57
I'm only here to make extraordinary prediction
Anyone can make up nonsense.
You don't even seem to realise that you are useless.
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Offline Spring Theory

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #102 on: 21/04/2023 14:23:44 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 20/04/2023 22:51:27
Quote from: Spring Theory on 20/04/2023 20:35:57
I'm only here to make extraordinary prediction
Anyone can make up nonsense.
You don't even seem to realise that you are useless.
That's not very nice.  Hurts my feelings.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #103 on: 22/04/2023 17:18:23 »
Hurt feelings? Oh dear. Bruno was burned and Galileo excommunicated for stating the obvious.

"The student of physics must become accustomed to having his common sense violated five times before breakfast" (Eddington).

If you are going to go further and make predictions that defy all existing knowledge, you need a pretty thick skin in this business.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #104 on: 23/04/2023 14:39:42 »
Recently I found out that Rowland made experiment with rotating copper disc at high voltage which can move small magnetic needles. In other words, moving charged conductor produces magnetic field. Unfortunately I can't find the reference in Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Augustus_Rowland

It's possible that the magnet simply moved due to Eddy current. If that's the case, removing the voltage should have no effect. I guess we can find out by replicating the experiment. I'm curious why it's not more widely known.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2023 14:42:05 by hamdani yusuf »
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #105 on: 24/04/2023 12:40:44 »
Basically, the experiment would be like the video below, but instead of a magnet, the disc is connected to a high voltage generator.

Rotating Copper Disc Demo
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #106 on: 23/08/2023 04:42:27 »
There's an interesting case with induction motor related to magnetism. Stator coils and rotor act like primary and secondary coils of a transformer.

During starting up, the rotor isn't rotating yet, and act simply like single turn coils with shorted outputs.

When the rotor is free to rotate at the same rate as the rotating magnetic field, and no friction from bearings nor the air, it will act like secondary coils with opened ends.
The power supply will observe the load of stator coils as if they are just normal inductors, unmodified by the rotor.

During the speeding up from standing still to maximum speed, the rotor acts like secondary coils with their ends connected with capacitors. The capacitance of the capacitor is proportional to the rotational inertia of the rotor. If the rotor has an extremely small rotational inertia, then it will be quickly accelerated to maximum speed, just like a small capacitor which is quickly become charged.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2023 06:11:29 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #107 on: 23/08/2023 09:50:12 »
The rotor never reaches synchronous speed. The difference is called the slip. When used as a motor the rotor speed will be less than synchronous, when used as a generator the rotor speed will be greater synchronous. The degree of slip depends on the load and of course the design of the motor. A full rigorous analysis of the squirrel cage motor is quite complex.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #108 on: 23/08/2023 11:08:36 »
Quote from: paul cotter on 23/08/2023 09:50:12
The rotor never reaches synchronous speed. The difference is called the slip. When used as a motor the rotor speed will be less than synchronous, when used as a generator the rotor speed will be greater synchronous. The degree of slip depends on the load and of course the design of the motor. A full rigorous analysis of the squirrel cage motor is quite complex.
That can be caused by rotor load or losses due to friction, either mechanical or electrical types, which is called resistance. Reducing those friction reduces the slip. Ideally, it's 0. Practically, it can be made very small by removing loads (including motor's rear fan), reducing friction on bearings (e.g. using magnetic bearings) and air friction (e.g. by running in vacuum), and use superconductor for the rotor.

The diagram below shows an analogy between an induction motor and a transformer with capacitive load on secondary coil. To simplify, resistive loads are made negligible.

* motor transformer analogy.JPG (35.93 kB, 721x755 - viewed 387 times.)
« Last Edit: 23/08/2023 11:13:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #109 on: 23/08/2023 11:15:23 »
Yes, what you say is correct but what is the point? Zero slip=zero torque and your motor is then just an expensive paper weight.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #110 on: 23/08/2023 12:01:28 »
My analogy draws the equivalence between capacitance and rotational inertia. It can explain why there's mass in the dimensional analysis of capacitance. It might be a clue to the incompleteness of Maxwell's equations to describe electrodynamics phenomena. His equations don't involve mass.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2023 13:26:59 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #111 on: 23/08/2023 14:41:50 »
There is nothing missing from Maxwell's equations, they do exactly what's written on the tin, no more, no less.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #112 on: 23/08/2023 16:00:00 »
Quote from: paul cotter on 23/08/2023 14:41:50
There is nothing missing from Maxwell's equations, they do exactly what's written on the tin, no more, no less.
Can Lorentz force be derived from Maxwell's equations?

How do they describe capacitance and inductance to have mass in their dimensional analysis?
« Last Edit: 23/08/2023 17:06:39 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #113 on: 23/08/2023 16:23:48 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/06/2022 13:38:25
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/06/2022 10:46:15
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/07/2016 13:47:55
Some of electrolytic solutions that will be used are NaCl, H2SO4, HCl, CuSO4, FeCl3.
\What happened when you used them?
My previous experiment didn't produce conclusive result yet. I'll try again if I can find a way to improve the experimental setup and increase the signal over noise ratio.
Any news?
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #114 on: 23/08/2023 17:57:31 »
Hamdani, inductance and capacitance do not have mass in their dimensional analysis. The Lorenz force equation is separate from Maxwell's equations, just as the gravitation equations are separate from Maxwell. We do not as yet have a theory of everything so we have to continue with separate equations for each particular phenomenon.
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #115 on: 23/08/2023 18:22:08 »
Hamdani, I posted in haste without reducing to basic units and I was in error. But dimensional analysis is a separate discipline to Maxwell's equations, so what if mass turns up in the analysis? As I said, more than once, Maxwell's equations do what they do, they don't tell me the lottery numbers to pick or any other matters outside their scope. I don't understand your obsession with Maxwell, all our equations have limited but valuable applications.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #116 on: 24/08/2023 04:22:05 »
Quote from: paul cotter on 23/08/2023 18:22:08
Hamdani, I posted in haste without reducing to basic units and I was in error. But dimensional analysis is a separate discipline to Maxwell's equations, so what if mass turns up in the analysis? As I said, more than once, Maxwell's equations do what they do, they don't tell me the lottery numbers to pick or any other matters outside their scope. I don't understand your obsession with Maxwell, all our equations have limited but valuable applications.
I often found someone claimed that Maxwell's equations can be used to describe all classical electromagnetic phenomena.
My analogy between rotor rotational inertia of an induction motor and a capacitor connected to output of secondary coil in a transformer shows the similarity between them. By simply increasing rotor rotational inertia, we can increase effective capacitance. It can be done in several ways, such as adding plastic or ceramic plate to the rotor shaft, or reconfigure mass distribution of the rotor to be further away from rotational axis.
« Last Edit: 25/08/2023 04:57:17 by hamdani yusuf »
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #117 on: 24/08/2023 05:04:50 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 23/08/2023 16:23:48
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/06/2022 13:38:25
Quote from: Bored chemist on 26/06/2022 10:46:15
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/07/2016 13:47:55
Some of electrolytic solutions that will be used are NaCl, H2SO4, HCl, CuSO4, FeCl3.
\What happened when you used them?
My previous experiment didn't produce conclusive result yet. I'll try again if I can find a way to improve the experimental setup and increase the signal over noise ratio.
Any news?
Thanks for the reminder.

I found it the hard way that to reduce noise to signal ratio and get conclusive results, I need to scale up the experimental equipment, especially increasing the electric current significantly, with all of its consequences. It would need significant amount of resources, including time and funding to build the equipment, which I currently don't have, unfortunately. It turns out that doing thought experiments are generally much easier, and cheaper than physical experiments.

So for now, I'm more focused on experiments which are easier to do and less demanding. I'm editing several videos of experiments in polarization and diffraction of light. So, I'm afraid this experiment will have to wait a little longer.

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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #118 on: 26/08/2023 04:38:53 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/08/2023 04:22:05
My analogy between rotor rotational inertia of an induction motor and a capacitor connected to output of secondary coil in a transformer shows the similarity between them. By simply increasing rotor rotational inertia, we can increase effective capacitance. It can be done in several ways, such as adding plastic or ceramic plate to the rotor shaft, or reconfigure mass distribution of the rotor to be further away from rotational axis.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/08/2023 11:08:36
The diagram below shows an analogy between an induction motor and a transformer with capacitive load on secondary coil. To simplify, resistive loads are made negligible.


It's just one of many analogies between mechanical end electrical systems. I'll try to find other examples to show the other analogies.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/08/2023 03:14:43
There's mechanical-electrical analogy for RLC circuit. Some of us are unaware that there are two types of analogies, which may create confusion.

In the case of rotating equipment like generator and motor, the mass should be replaced by rotational inertia.
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Online hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Origin of magnetic force
« Reply #119 on: 26/08/2023 06:57:12 »
Lecture 2: Faraday, Thomson, and Maxwell: Lines of Force in the Ether
Earlier physicists also tried to describe analogy between mechanics and electricity.
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