[thedoc (OP)]

Erika asked the Naked Scientists:
   Where in our brains does consciousness lie?
What do you think?

[smart]

Where in our brains does consciousness lie?

Inside neurons, in microtubules.

[evan_au]

Where in our brains does consciousness lie?

Inside neurons, in microtubules.

I would go larger - consciousness arises from the aggregate, coordinated operation of billions of neurons (there are about 100 billion neurons in the human brain).

Of course, the aggregate operation of a billion neurons is influenced by the internal structure of each neuron...

At an intermediate scale, some would say that the synapses govern interactions between neurons - but I heard that hibernating squirrels prune many of these synapses, and then regrow them as they awake. So perhaps learned patterns of interaction are stored somewhere inside the neurons?

[smart]

Consciousness is immaterial.

The brain is not the source of consciousness: Interneuronal quantum coherence is evidence of long-range quantum entanglement of neuronal populations.

Consciousness operates beyond the dimension of physicalism.

[dlorde]

Neurological studies suggests that evan_au has the right idea. When a stimulus that is not sufficient to produce conscious awareness is given, it will produce a limited activation response local to the areas dealing with the relevant sense. It may cause localized activations in more distant areas, but they die out in fairly short order. When the stimulus intensity is increased until it crosses the threshold for conscious awareness (the subject reports sensing it), the initial activation is greater and causes a wave of activity to sweep across the cortex, triggering bursts of activity in many areas and 'echoing' back and forth for a much longer period.

There do seem to be particular areas in the brain that control the various aspects of the sense of self (locality, agency, bounds, ownership, etc.), and these will also be particularly active, but conscious awareness seems to involve widespread activation and synchronization of activity across the brain.

[smart]

Neurological studies suggests that evan_au has the right idea. When a stimulus that is not sufficient to produce conscious awareness is given, it will produce a limited activation response local to the areas dealing with the relevant sense. It may cause localized activations in more distant areas, but they die out in fairly short order. When the stimulus intensity is increased until it crosses the threshold for conscious awareness (the subject reports sensing it), the initial activation is greater and causes a wave of activity to sweep across the cortex, triggering bursts of activity in many areas and 'echoing' back and forth for a much longer period.

There do seem to be particular areas in the brain that control the various aspects of the sense of self (locality, agency, bounds, ownership, etc.), and these will also be particularly active, but conscious awareness seems to involve widespread activation and synchronization of activity across the brain.

How do you explain the neuroscience of brain-to-brain connectivity and neuronal phase coherence? I agree however that synchronicity must be implicated in the neurophenomenology of consciousness. I suggest that macroscopic quantum coherence must be correlated to the optimal computation (hypercomputation) of conscious experience through bioelectromagnetic fields. The mind and matter are entangled together inside the brain at the molecular level where quantum-like interactions seem to orchestrate consciousness. I call this biological phenomenon "synaptic hypercomputation".
 

[dlorde]

How do you explain the neuroscience of brain-to-brain connectivity and neuronal phase coherence?

What do you mean by the 'neuroscience of brain-to-brain connectivity and neuronal phase coherence'? If possible provide a reference.

I agree however that synchronicity must be implicated in the neurophenomenology of consciousness. I suggest that macroscopic quantum coherence must be correlated to the optimal computation (hypercomputation) of conscious experience through bioelectromagnetic fields. The mind and matter are entangled together inside the brain at the molecular level where quantum-like interactions seem to orchestrate consciousness. I call this biological phenomenon "synaptic hypercomputation".

What makes you think hypercomputation is possible? why would it be necessary for consciousness?


I don't see how macroscopic quantum effects can be relevant. Explain what you mean by 'macroscopic quantum coherence' in the brain, and how it would aid understanding of consciousness. The quantum entanglement you mentioned previously is a non-starter; entangled particles must have a common source and cannot transfer or exchange information - also, entanglement resolves anytime an entangled particle interacts. The brain is not a vacuum - if there were entangled particles, they would interact within microns.


With respect, it just sounds like a bunch of speculative unexplained processes being invoked to explain consciousness, another unexplained process. That would be pseudoscience. You can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

[smart]

What do you mean by the 'neuroscience of brain-to-brain connectivity and neuronal phase coherence'? If possible provide a reference.

http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003723
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042815018406

What makes you think hypercomputation is possible? why would it be necessary for consciousness?

Thats a good question. My guess is that mind and matter "entanglement" (neuronal phase coherence) are part of a greater (collective) consciousness, allowing brain-to-brain connectivity in a group of people via quantum channels.   

I don't see how macroscopic quantum effects can be relevant. Explain what you mean by 'macroscopic quantum coherence' in the brain, and how it would aid understanding of consciousness. The quantum entanglement you mentioned previously is a non-starter; entangled particles must have a common source and cannot transfer or exchange information - also, entanglement resolves anytime an entangled particle interacts. The brain is not a vacuum - if there were entangled particles, they would interact within microns.

The brain is not consciousness.

With respect, it just sounds like a bunch of speculative unexplained processes being invoked to explain consciousness, another unexplained process. That would be pseudoscience. You can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

Do you consider general relativity pseudoscience? I do believe in the power of the mind to physically interact with matter...

[dlorde]

http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003723

OK, this seems a straightforward mathematical model of how two identical reciprocally connected neuronal populations synchronize activity, measuring how the coupling delay affects the efficiency of the communication between them. They found that the excitatory coupling causes spontaneous phase coherence, and the two populations organize themselves in patterns of in-phase or anti-phase synchronization, depending on the delay.


An interesting mathematical model of synchronization between coupled neuronal populations, but I don't really see the relevance -we know areas of the brain synchronize, and this model gives a mathematical basis for it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042815018406

I'm rather dubious about this one - the size of the effect they claim was so low that they say they had to repeat it hundreds of times to get a significant result. Statistical analysis of EEG traces in this way is error-prone, and other studies have found that when traditional methods of averaging and calculations for event-related potential are used, there is a distinct evoked potential in the EEGs of senders, but not in receivers. Given the lack of credible physical mechanism, I'm sceptical. At best, the jury is out on this.

My guess is that mind and matter "entanglement" (neuronal phase coherence) are part of a greater (collective) consciousness, allowing brain-to-brain connectivity in a group of people via quantum channels.

Neuronal phase coherence is synchronous activity between connected neuronal populations, you could call it entrainment, but 'entanglement' doesn't seem an appropriate description.What are 'quantum channels' ?

The brain is not consciousness.

That doesn't answer the question.

Do you consider general relativity pseudoscience? I do believe in the power of the mind to physically interact with matter...

That's a red-herring - GR hasn't been mentioned - and no, GR may be incomplete, but it's not pseudoscience.



Your statement of belief is ill-defined metaphysics, not science.

[smart]

Your statement of belief is ill-defined metaphysics, not science.

Nice one, dlorde. I am surprised by the lack of evidences in your claims. Thus, please consider the reality of biological hypercomputation as a neurophenomenological science based on general relativity (GR), not pseudo-science.

With respect, I suggest you read more on the role of quantum channels and microtubules in the organization of consciousness.
   

[dlorde]

Nice one, dlorde. I am surprised by the lack of evidences in your claims.

Lol! I didn't make any claims.

... please consider the reality of biological hypercomputation as a neurophenomenological science based on general relativity (GR), not pseudo-science.

How does GR relate to hypothetical hypercomputation as a neurophenomenon?  What evidence is there of biological hypercomputation?

With respect, I suggest you read more on the role of quantum channels and microtubules in the organization of consciousness.

Interesting that you don't seem able to provide any information yourself... But if you're talking about Hameroff and Penrose's Orch-OR 'quantum consciousness' theory, I've followed it from the beginning - it was a crock then and it's only got worse; Hameroff is now talking about 'quantum souls'... and despite their attempts to spark media attention again, Bandyopadhyay's 'research' doesn't say what they claim it says. I now see they've teamed up with Deepak Chopra - that should tell you all you need to know. 

[puppypower]

Erika asked the Naked Scientists:
   Where in our brains does consciousness lie?
What do you think?

One key consideration, is connected to how neurons are designed. Neurons expend considerable energy, pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium cations, creating a membrane potential. The sodium cations accumulate on the outside and the potassium cations accumulate on the inside of the membrane. What is referred to as the rest state of the neuron, is actually the neuron when it is at highest potential; top of a free energy hill. Reaching the top of this free energy hill; rest state, is the result of considerable energy expenditure by the neuron. Firing a neuron is way to lower potential. A neuron is an accident waiting to happen. This is different from computer memory, which is designed to be stable at rest.  If computer memory was designed like neurons, you could not have long term storage, since the memory will try lower its internal free energy, altering the memory. This is needed for consciousness.

The rest state of the neuron has the neuron all charged up with respect to free energy, which is the sum of enthalpy and entropy. The enthalpy is connected, in part to the membrane potential, while the entropy potential is connected to the concentration gradients of cations; sodium out and potassium in.  Cations in solution do not wish to be segregated on different sides go the beaker, but will prefer form a uniform solution; highest state entropy. The neuron expends energy to lower the cation entropy via segregation.

That being said, if a neuron was to expend ATP energy, to push itself up the free energy hill and then go past the stable rest peak state, it will spontaneously fire.  Once at the top of the hill, the neuron can slide down the other side of the free energy hill. When the neuron, slides down the free energy hill, its enthalpy is lowering and it entropy is increasing. The increase in entropy is implicit of increasing complexity. This complexity increase has a connection to consciousness.

Say we started with one neuron at rest, that pushes itself over the free energy hill, so it slides down the other side; fires. As it lowers internal potential, a flux of free energy, which is enthalpy and entropy, will output from the neuron. Like the flow of water downhill, the free energy will follow paths of least resistance; memory and neural hierarchy, while containing an entropy will card, that will slightly modify the memory and pathways on which it flows.

This net affect, as a visualization, is like a water fountain that pumps water upward to the top of the fountain, where the water overflows and then spontaneously returns to lower potential; base of the fountain. In the case of the brain, the base of the fountain is the body. An active water fountain will look essentially the same, over time, while always being slightly different as the water splashes and cascades it subtle nuances. This combination of affects makes us who we are, while also adding a wild card of change, so we feel a sense of changing complexity that we associate with the flow of time. Thinking is not pure repeat, but is about changes in nuance around common themes.

This foundation of free energy hills, does not preclude quantum affects, as a way to lower free energy. Quantum affects are a very good source of entropy increase.There are also related quantum water affects, with water able to routinely form quantum tunneling pairs. Dendrites, axons and microtubules are like wires for directing the flow of free energy potential to lower potential, often triggering more firing along the way, to amplify the affect.


Relative to the brain, the thalamus region of the brain, which is in the core of the brain, is the most wired part of the brain, receiving free energy flux from all parts of the brain. I would guess this is the center of consciousness, due to all the crossing energy fluxes.  The cerebral is more like the engine, the free energy flux. Arousal, which makes us aware and conscious of realty, lies in the brain stem just down stream of the thalamus, after thalamus processing of cerebral up and over, nuances. This combines feeing and thought.

[jacck123]

hiiiiiiiiii
       Welcome to this forum site, here you can find many things which is really important for us , scientists have been probing individual regions of the brain for over a century, exploring their function by zapping them with electricity and temporarily putting them out of action. Despite this, they have never been able to turn off consciousness –

Thanks


MAY 2011 VISA BULLETIN PREDICTIONS ]

[dlorde]

... scientists have been probing individual regions of the brain for over a century, exploring their function by zapping them with electricity and temporarily putting them out of action. Despite this, they have never been able to turn off consciousness...

That is incorrect: Consciousness On-Off Switch Discovered Deep in the Brain.


Also, of course, there are anaesthetics, and all the other involuntary means of turning off consciousness, such as a blow to the head, fainting, and so-on.

[puppypower]

... scientists have been probing individual regions of the brain for over a century, exploring their function by zapping them with electricity and temporarily putting them out of action. Despite this, they have never been able to turn off consciousness...

That is incorrect: Consciousness On-Off Switch Discovered Deep in the Brain.

Also, of course, there are anaesthetics, and all the other involuntary means of turning off consciousness, such as a blow to the head, fainting, and so-on.

There are two centers of human consciousness, one center each, for the both conscious and the unconscious minds. The studied cited seems to be connected to the secondary center, which to most people, is assumed to be the only center.  The primary center is far less conscious and is called the inner self. The primary center is shared by animals. Humans are unique in that we also have the secondary center, called the ego center, which is the center of the conscious mind. If you sleep and have no awareness of dreams, the secondary center is switched off. The primary center can still active, working the brain in a more integrated fashion; free energy movement.

As an example of both centers in action, say you were walking down the hall and one of your friends decided to prank you, by jumping out from a closed door to scare you. Your initial reaction, to being scared, will come from the primary center. This natural center will make you jump and maybe even scream and run in the blink of an eye. This overreaction can be funny to the prankster, and to bystanders, because it can be embarrassing to the ego center of the person who overreacts. The ego often wears a social mask and would prefer to maintain an image of self control. However, the reaction by the primary, can be too fast, due to necessity, for the ego to fully censor it, making one appear out of character.

The secondary center is relatively new in terms of evolution. It is connected to the free energy flux stemming from the thalamus integration. The main flow of free energy starts in the sensory circuits and cerebral neurons. It then goes to the thalamus, where it converges and is integrated for redistribution. There are reverse loops that start in the thalamus that flow back to the cerebral;  thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits. The flow upstream is possible due the thalamus amplification. The secondary is connected to some of the return loops adding neural complexity as the claustrum.

One thing that distinguishes the ego center is free will and choice. Free will and choice have a connection to entropy. Free will and choice increase complexity in the world around us. Instead of justing eating food off the tree, like an animal, our conscious minds, via the ego and culture, will increase the complexity of eating, by using silverware, dishes, by adding spices, colors and textures all of which are not required for nutrition.

The secondary appeared when there was sufficient free energy flux flowing up the thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits to allow the ego center to  become autonomous, via physical changes in the claustrum circuits. Data from history seems to indicate that the evolution of the secondary was a gradual process that looks thousands of years. This is inferred from very early civilization, which added complexity/entropy to natural living, often started up, but was aborted many times, before the first permanent civilization appears. This suggests the changes needed for a stable secondary, appeared in some people, but not in all. It was not fully transferrable, through reproduction and DNA, until about 6000-10,000 year ago. This time frame is when the first stable civilization forms and persists. The persistence would have required a wider range of humans over many generations who could sustain increasing the complexity associated with the evolving cultural needs.

[puppypower]

The hippocampus is an aspect of the limbic system, located near the thalamus; in blue. When memory is written, the hippocampus will add an emotional tag to memory. The brain core location of the hippocampus, relative to the thalamus, and its impact on the cerebral memory tells us that the hippocampus adds complexity to cerebral memory via the thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits. In this case, the added complexity is associated with an emotional tag, which gets more complex as animals evolved, from cold to warmed blooded.






The emotional tag is useful to an animal since, if a similar memory is triggered; sensory induced recall, the memory will induce the emotional tag. For example, if an animal was to find a food item, it once ate, which tasted good, by seeing it again, the food item will induce that same good feeling. The result is the animal will eat, without having to think, by reacting to the feeling. There is more emotional tagging in warm blooded animals, allowing a more complex social interaction, based on sensory cues.


Because memory has both sensory data as well as emotional tags, it is possible to trigger memory from either side of this thought-feeling duality. I can feel a feeling, such as hunger while I am working. This feeling will cause memories of food to appear in my mind; pizza or burgers? Or I can start to think about food, hours before lunch, because of a commercial on TV, and start to get hungry, too early. The result is there are two types of thinking; logical and emotional thinking, using the same memories, with each slanted to one of the two centers.


Logical thinking, like with Mr Spock tends to keep emotions in check, whereas emotional thinking tends to use the emotion as a foundation for thinking. The former tries to converge the thoughts and data, into a simplicity; conclusion, even if the memories of each logical steps induce conflicting emotions. The latter does the opposite and tends to diverge a simple feeling into a complexity of thought. For example, the emotion of love, has resulted in endless music and songs, with each song reinforcing the nuances of love. The artist starts with the feeling of love, maybe for his beloved. This feeling helps extrapolates their memories around the theme/tags of love. Mr Spock, on the other hand, tries to keep his emotions in check. The purpose is to prevent emotional thinking from forming tangents, so reasoning can converge to a logical conclusion.


It is also possible to blend the two paths to memory/thinking. For example, one can begin with reasoning, but as you trigger the memory data and their emotions, one can start to tangent off into emotional thinking. As a hypothetical example, say I was trying to reason whether I should stay with my mate or whether it was time to separate. At first, I try to be objective to the pros and cons, so I can converge to a logical conclusion. But in the process of weighing the two options, when I think of the goods times, strong feelings of love appear. I start to drift off in my imagination, full of hope,  losing the original goal of a fully logical convergence. I may conclude, I should stay based on the emotional thinking. However, in a few days, we are back to where we were. I try once again to reason. This time I drift off due to the memories created by the negatives feelings and wrongly conclude we cannot overcome our problems. This may also be wrong, since is not logical but emotional.


The reason I am explaining all this is, what we call consciousness is a blend of the two centers; inner self and ego, which often appear to be one thing. It takes practice to differentiate the two. The thalamus is the main hub of the free energy flux, and therefore it benefits by adding complexity to memory and thinking. The thalamus tends to be more naturally connected to emotional thinking; endless songs of love, since this offers a way to deal with the entropy. The ego is more modern, and although it can add complexity through choice and will, it has the capacity to converge thought. This requires calming the emotions. A good logical conclusion, although lowering entropy via a convergence, it can become the foundation for a whole new source of complexity; new energy hill. Logical thinking is harder than emotional thinking, due to increasing the free energy. But, once formed, it can become another hill, we can slide down; better thalamus outlet.


In all the cases of dealing with dual parameters memory, the thalamus, have a certain free energy economy that needs to be expressed, with the ego able to add convergence and divergence to the brain's memory. Therefore the ego can help the thalamus and/or it dam the free energy flow, while never reaching the top of free energy hills. Depending on which is occurring, the thalamus will still need to express the free energy economy and flux. The result will be two overlapping centers, that can appear to reinforce, obsess, and/or conflict with each other.

[puppypower]

Another consideration, which is less main stream, is a possible connection between water and consciousness. This can be inferred from looking at the importance of water in terms of protein properties. Proteins of all types are required for the functioning of the neurons and the brain. These protein range from the microtubules, to the ionic transport proteins, to all the enzymes needed for synthesis and metabolism, etc.


Protein hydration is very important for the 3-D structure, dynamic ensemble of conformations and activity of proteins. Fluctuations of the protein surface groups drive and are driven and controlled by the surrounding network of water molecules. Indeed, protein lack biological activity in the absence of sufficient hydrating water, of a least a monolayer thick.


In solution proteins possess a conformational flexibility, which encompasses a wide range of hydration states not seen in the crystal or in non-aqueous environments. Equilibrium between these states will depend on the activity of the water within its microenvironment, that is the freedom that the water has to hydrate the protein.   


Protein conformations demanding greater hydration are favored by more reactive water while drier conformations are favored by lower activity water.


Water is an integrating variable.  The water defines the protein conformations defined based on hydration.The protein, in turn,  impact the activity of the water, since they form hydrogen bonds with water.  As the water changes, this has an impact on other proteins. In terms of the free energy flux, this is reflected in the water, which in turn, will have an impact on the protein conformations which define memory. For example, some aspects of short term memory, do not need to be  permanent, but can fluctuate via changes in water activity, which is reversible.


I don't have time this morning but one can regulate the free energy in the water by altering the ratio of potassium to sodium ions, since each cation has a different impact on the water. Potassium is chaotropic and will add entropy to the water, while sodium are kosmotropic will lower the entropy in the water. When neurons fire, the internal neuron lowers entropy, while outside the neuron sees an increase in entropy in the water.


 

[cheryl j]

Why do discussions about consciousness always go off the rails?

[dlorde]

Why do discussions about consciousness always go off the rails?

The hard to grasp and the unexplained always seem to attract a raft of pseudoscientific debris...

[cheryl j]

Why do discussions about consciousness always go off the rails?

The hard to grasp and the unexplained always seem to attract a raft of pseudoscientific debris...

I guess what irks me is that there actually is a fair amount of information about the neuroscience behind things like perception, memory,  language, learning or emotion etc. - a lot of it a click away on Wikipedia. But there's this odd assumption that "Well, I have a brain, so I must know how it works,  and if I can't explain how the brain performs some task, it must be mysterious." There's no other area of science I can think of where so many people do this. I'm not criticizing anyone for asking questions, or not knowing something , just the tendency to make sh1t up willy nilly.