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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #740 on: 20/03/2023 12:57:21 »
IMO, being more conscious means being less constrained by environmental conditions. Currently, human knowledge in chemistry is pretty much advanced so that we can arrange a lot of chemical substances from various kind of raw materials. Although some chemical reactions are still deemed uneconomical, which is why we still have plastic waste problem and clean water crisis in some places.
The next step would be to effectively and efficiently control nuclear transmutations to produce naturally rare chemical elements that we need from other elements which are more abundant. It would make technological progress less constrained by geopolitical concerns.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #741 on: 21/03/2023 11:52:18 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/03/2023 23:29:23
Like other systems, capitalism was created with good intention.
Unlike other systems, capitalism wasn't created.

It is the logical, organic consequence of the invention of currency (itself a consequence of trade specialisation, which underpins civilisation).

The evolution of capitalism has been constrained at various times and places by trade and banking law, but unlike socialism, communism, or subspecies of capitalism such as EU privatisation and Thatcherism,  it is rarely if ever created and imposed as a system.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #742 on: 21/03/2023 15:51:38 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/03/2023 11:52:18
Unlike other systems, capitalism wasn't created.
Humans created it.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #743 on: 21/03/2023 15:54:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/03/2023 11:52:18
The evolution of capitalism has been constrained at various times and places by trade and banking law,
Unconstrained capitalism caused great depression. That's why it's constrained now.


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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #744 on: 21/03/2023 22:00:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/03/2023 15:51:38
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/03/2023 11:52:18
Unlike other systems, capitalism wasn't created.
Humans created it.
But it isn't a single system. At one extreme (e.g. Sweden) you have a very successful entrepreneurial culture within which people are happy to pay very high taxes in exchange for a wide range of state-provided benefits of excellent quality, and at the other you have the USA where taxes and state provision are very small.

The constraints on US banking are minimal, which is why SVB has gone down the toilet and carried Credit Suisse with it. The upside of the US economy is its overall resilience thanks to millions of small shareholders being ready to take a punt on innovation.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #745 on: 22/03/2023 13:03:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/03/2023 22:00:52
But it isn't a single system.
Is there any single economic system? Most existing economic systems are combination of capitalism, socialism and communism.
Afaik, all of them were developed from existing system before them.
« Last Edit: 22/03/2023 13:28:50 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #746 on: 22/03/2023 15:32:47 »
Communism is an imposed system, invented pretty much ab initio by Marx et al and imposed by revolution. It has been watered down in most countries because central planning over a large area and population is too rigid to respond to changing circumstances, and too often managed by corrupt idiots.The good thing about capitalism is that corruption and stupidity are spread relatively thinly across the economy, and mistakes are therefore mostly containable and self-extinguishing.

Simple example. Central Office says we need 1,000,000 tractors of Design A. So everyone tools up and starts work, but there is a flaw in the design. By the time CO has admitted it and ordered production to stop, you have 1,000,000 scrap tractors. Under bad old capitalism, Bloggs sets out to make 1,000 tractors of type X, Jones makes a thousand of type Y, and the users decide which one works best on their land. Bloggs may go bust and Jones might scale up to 500,000 before Williams comes up with Z which is even better.

I've always been impressed  by Japanese network manufacturing.B J and W agree to make parts for each other's machines, so nobody is wholly dependent on  one design or one market, but each sells a product with his own badge - collaborative competition.  But it has to be done by engineers, not politicians!
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #747 on: 22/03/2023 21:02:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/03/2023 22:00:52
The upside of the US economy
Many foreign entities keep USD. They will find their shares being devalued whenever US federal Reserve decides to fund US government programs. It's part of making profit private and making loss public.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #748 on: 22/03/2023 21:41:17 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/03/2023 15:32:47
The good thing about capitalism is that corruption and stupidity are spread relatively thinly across the economy, and mistakes are therefore mostly containable and self-extinguishing.
Except when the wealthy get access to influence decision makers in the government and lawmakers, through donations and what not. Illiterate folks can be easily manipulated through media misinformation.
« Last Edit: 22/03/2023 22:23:43 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #749 on: 22/03/2023 22:29:35 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/03/2023 15:32:47
Communism is an imposed system, invented pretty much ab initio by Marx et al and imposed by revolution.
Even communism has evolved. From Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Deng, and others, each of them made some changes in the details of the systems.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #750 on: 22/03/2023 22:34:58 »
Any system restricted by short term goals will eventually fail, when the environmental conditions make those goals no longer applicable. Systems with long term goals have more flexibility in changing their short term goals, which act as instrumental goals to help achieving their terminal goal. The longest term goal logically conceivable is the universal terminal goal.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #751 on: 23/03/2023 02:31:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 04/03/2023 10:00:09
Most economies depend on the production of waste.
Someone's trash is someone else's treasure. We can learn something from this video.
12 Year Old Terrarium - Life Inside a closed jar, Over a decade in isolation
Quote
In this video we take a look at the terrarium my brother made during his childhood. This terrarium was made between 2007 - 2008. This makes the terrarium at least 12 years old.

Inside there is a variety of organisms. All of which have persisted within the closed ecosystem for generations. Originally this terrarium was home to a lot more plant and isopod species, however as the years went by biodiversity was lost as the new ecosystem balanced out.

Currently the ecosystem is experiencing cycles. As the plant population increased, so did the isopods. This caused the isopod population to graze on a lot of the terrariums plants, causing the plant population to decrease. I imagine centipede populations may increase in future giving the plants the opportunity to recover.

I found this terrarium very fascinating as it's almost as if there are two separate worlds within the same glass demijohn. The algae underground creates a unique habitat, which couldn't possibly exist in nature due to the fact the glass ensured that light could reach the soil underground. This allowed algaes, moss and fungi to flourish, alongside any of the smaller invertebrates that lived among them.

Adult isopods seem to inhabit the surface and rarely venture below ground. I believe this is due to the hardness of the clay and rock substrate. The babies do seem to venture underground though, likely using tunnels left behind by earthworms many years ago.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #752 on: 01/04/2023 13:57:44 »
How Can We Fix Inflation? With Economist Steve Hanke | The Problem With Jon Stewart Podcast
Economy is about regulating supply and demand. Over supply of money can cause inflation. But under supply or over demand of resources can also cause inflation. By symmetry, under demand of money can cause inflation too. Although it is seemingly unheard of.
They all make sense if money is regarded as virtualization of resources. It enables distribution of resources across space and time easily, which can be much harder to do with real resources.
But the flexibility comes with higher complexitycomplexity, which makes it difficult to analyze and predict. The time delay that the economic system takes to show a response to a stimulus makes it harder to control.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2023 17:27:53 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #753 on: 01/04/2023 17:03:23 »
Inflation nowadays isn't due to oversupply or undersupply of anything. It's the consequence of an uncompetitive market. There is no shortage of liquid  fuels, and all electricity and gas retail companies are actually supplying the same stuff, but there is no point in charging significantly less than anyone else for the same product, so the price can only creep upwards. Same with rail fares - each route is effectively a monopoly, so if you want to travel from London to Edinburgh you have to pay the asking price,whatever it may be. Once you are inside a supermarket, you aren't going to walk out and travel to a competitor if you think his potatoes are 10% cheaper, so everyone's food prices increase.

The only clear example of supply-driven inflation, and the one that destroyed the UK economy, was the introduction of oral contraceptives in the 1960s. Thanks to the Luftwaffe and the postwar baby boom there was a shortage of habitable houses  but prices were limited by prospective affordability over 25 years - no young couple could borrow more than 2.5 times a man's salary plus 0.5 times a woman's, because it was almost certain that she would leave work and raise a family within the mortgage term.

Suddenly, pregnancy became optional rather than inevitable, so mortgages were offered on joint salaries, and prices quickly rose to meet the available money. There were two significant consequences.

First, anyone who had a house to sell could ask 25% more than he had paid for it, even allowing for any other inflation during the period of ownership, so a house became an appreciating asset rather than a liability - you could earn more by just staying alive than by working! But then folk began to fill said houses with children anyway, so wage demands increased (and were met) because the workforce  hadn't actually doubled but probably only increased by about 25% wholetime equivalent.

And the now-solidified expectation of house prices rising (which had no historic or overseas precedent) coupled with the mandatory privatisation of publicly-owned rental housing, meant that mortgage lending became hugely profitable (there's nothing quite as easy as gambling with other people's money whilst holding their home as  security) and now accounts for over 30% of the gross national product, to the detriment of "real" investment in productive industry.

Result: Britain ceased to be a manufacturing economy (why lend money to a factory that might turn into scrap and debts, rather than a householder with a realisable appreciating asset as security?) and became a financial centre only. Which is fine until someone else buys a computer and can do the same job elsewhere.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #754 on: 01/04/2023 17:08:40 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/03/2023 22:34:58
Any system restricted by short term goals will eventually fail, when the environmental conditions make those goals no longer applicable.
Or succeed, when the goals have been achieved. Example: the object of a small business is to allow the owner to retire as soon as possible. Not every grocer's shop or white van enterprise is intended to support a dynasty.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #755 on: 01/04/2023 18:14:18 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/04/2023 17:03:23
Inflation nowadays isn't due to oversupply or undersupply of anything. It's the consequence of an uncompetitive market. There is no shortage of liquid  fuels, and all electricity and gas retail companies are actually supplying the same stuff, but there is no point in charging significantly less than anyone else for the same product, so the price can only creep upwards.
Resources are useless if they are inaccessible. There's more than enough hydrogen in the atmosphere of Jupiter.
Uncompetitive behaviors can only survive until a newer and disruptive technology arises,  which can act as the better alternative. Although some regressive policies can prolong their survival while costing tax payers' money.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2023 18:51:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #756 on: 01/04/2023 18:54:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/04/2023 17:08:40
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/03/2023 22:34:58
Any system restricted by short term goals will eventually fail, when the environmental conditions make those goals no longer applicable.
Or succeed, when the goals have been achieved. Example: the object of a small business is to allow the owner to retire as soon as possible. Not every grocer's shop or white van enterprise is intended to support a dynasty.
Without long term goals, the conscious agents will lose purpose and direction once the short term goals are achieved.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #757 on: 02/04/2023 15:11:06 »
"Long term" is about 90 years. Most people's short term goal is to earn enough to enjoy the last 30 of them. Except for politicians. of course, whose only goal is re-election.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #758 on: 04/04/2023 12:51:50 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/04/2023 15:11:06
"Long term" is about 90 years. Most people's short term goal is to earn enough to enjoy the last 30 of them.
Any goal that is limited to individual life time will become meaningless with the death of those individuals. Thus, unless you are immortal, your long term goals need to cover beyond your own lifetime to keep them relevant.
Some of us has expressed their goal to make the world a better place for their descendants to live.

Quote
Except for politicians. of course, whose only goal is re-election.
Absolute monarchs are also politicians. They don't care about election.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2023 05:50:39 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #759 on: 06/04/2023 22:48:33 »
Singularity Endgame: Utopia, Dystopia, Collapse, or Extinction? (It's actually up to you!)

Post-Singularity Predictions - How will our lives, corporations, and nations adapt to AI revolution?
« Last Edit: 06/04/2023 22:50:56 by hamdani yusuf »
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