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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #880 on: 01/08/2023 15:47:49 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/08/2023 10:20:56
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/07/2023 11:16:24
There are known alternatives to that statement, depending on the context, like 1+1=10 or 1+1=1
They are not alternatives, but entirely different mathematical statements expressed with the same symbols. Just like writing different statements with the same letters.
They are alternative statements which may be true or false depending on the context, i.e. underlying assumptions about the meaning of the symbols. This supports my previous statement.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/07/2023 11:16:24
In practice, any assumption related to objective/physical reality can only be supported inductively.

Deductive reasoning can only be used to check the consistency among definitions and relationships of abstract objects.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2023 15:52:49 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #881 on: 01/08/2023 22:45:03 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 29/07/2023 23:17:15
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/01/2022 14:30:37
The word terminal in the term universal terminal goal emphasizes time dimension over space and the others. It's better to have a finite number of conscious entities for infinite time rather than infinite number of conscious entities for a finite amount of time.
Butterfly effect in chaos theory makes it impossible to predict events in infinitely distant future. That's why it's necessary to have plan B, C, and so on. There is a balance in number of redundancies vs resources needed to make an accurate and precise prediction of the future, i.e. virtual universe.
When the available virtual model of the universe is not yet adequately accurate and precise for our purpose, we are forced to do some trial and errors. We can learn from the errors to improve the virtual model, with the cost of destruction of early prototypes. This is clearly visible in the development of reusable rockets by SpaceX. They said developing the computer model to simulate the rocket design until it's ready for launch would take even longer and more costly than building the physical prototypes and destroy some of them to gather more data.
In biological organisms, that back up plans are manifested in the form of having more descendants. In computers, it can be found in redundancy of data storage, like RAID technology.
Inherently, in this backup solution we can't be sure of which copies will eventually make it to the future. Some copies will eventually die out or destroyed. What we can do is to make sure as far as we can that they don't have to die unnecessarily. This conclusion is an important part for any moral system to be developed.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2023 01:50:24 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #882 on: 01/08/2023 23:57:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/08/2023 15:41:32
Eventually the jobs of CEO, investors, politicians and lawmakers will be taken over by AI.
You mean these people are going to give up their status and salary, and join the unemployed? Why would they want to replace themselves with a machine?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #883 on: 02/08/2023 04:16:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/08/2023 23:57:51
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/08/2023 15:41:32
Eventually the jobs of CEO, investors, politicians and lawmakers will be taken over by AI.
You mean these people are going to give up their status and salary, and join the unemployed? Why would they want to replace themselves with a machine?
They don't necessarily give up. They will just be outcompeted by future AI models, which will be smarter, more intelligent, less distracted, less emotional/sentimental, less needy, more strategic, more effective and efficient in achieving goals of the organization/system assigned to them. Overpaid human individuals will only be excessive burdens for their organizations, which makes them inevitably outcompeted by their competitors.
You can't see it now, because the currently existing AI models aren't good enough yet to do it all. But they will grow exponentially and will surpass any human individuals sooner than most people now expect. They will be eventually open sourced. Now we have seen some open source AI models are catching up the performance of AI models from large companies in terms of effectiveness and efficiency.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2023 06:17:03 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #884 on: 02/08/2023 13:57:17 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/08/2023 04:16:52
Overpaid human individuals will only be excessive burdens for their organizations, which makes them inevitably outcompeted by their competitors.
The least burdened system is that whose terminal goal is most aligned with the universal moral compass. When perfectly aligned, it takes the universal terminal goal as its own terminal goal.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2023 14:07:02 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #885 on: 02/08/2023 14:16:29 »
If we take into account that pursuing goals needs resources, the universal terminal goal can be rephrased as providing (either by gathering or creating) necessary resources for future conscious entities to survive. The resources can take various forms, such as time, matter, energy, knowledge, duplicates, etc.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2023 16:05:56 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #886 on: 02/08/2023 18:55:19 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/08/2023 04:16:52
They will just be outcompeted by future AI models,
But an AI model doesn't stand to gain anything by being smart. Only a human profits from managerial decisions.

Worth remembering that the analog computer, the digital computer, and integer mathematics, were all developed for war - an entirely human activity. As an engineer yourself, you know what we do with machines that consume energy and don't help humans get somewhere, do something, or make a profit - we switch them off!
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #887 on: 02/08/2023 19:31:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/08/2023 14:16:29
the universal terminal goal can be rephrased as providing (either by gathering or creating) necessary resources for future conscious entities to survive.
Or possibly, happiness. I intend to die in a state of euphoria, either from nitrogen hypoxia in my bed, or hypothermia as the sun sets over a fishing lake. What better goal could there be? And neither requires any provision for the future.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #888 on: 03/08/2023 10:56:42 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/08/2023 18:55:19
But an AI model doesn't stand to gain anything by being smart. Only a human profits from managerial decisions.
It's called instrumental convergence.
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence

Instrumental convergence is the hypothetical tendency for most sufficiently intelligent beings (human and non-human) to pursue similar sub-goals, even if their ultimate goals are pretty different.[1] More precisely, agents (beings with agency) may pursue instrumental goals?goals which are made in pursuit of some particular end, but are not the end goals themselves?without ceasing, provided that their ultimate (intrinsic) goals may never be fully satisfied.

Instrumental convergence posits that an intelligent agent with unbounded but harmless goals can act in surprisingly harmful ways. For example, a computer with the sole, unconstrained purpose of solving a complex mathematics problem like the Riemann hypothesis could attempt to turn the entire Earth into one giant computer to increase its computational power so that it can succeed in its calculations.[2]

Proposed basic AI drives include utility function or goal-content integrity, self-protection, freedom from interference, self-improvement, and non-satiable acquisition of additional resources.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #889 on: 03/08/2023 11:01:58 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/08/2023 18:55:19
Worth remembering that the analog computer, the digital computer, and integer mathematics, were all developed for war - an entirely human activity. As an engineer yourself, you know what we do with machines that consume energy and don't help humans get somewhere, do something, or make a profit - we switch them off!
If one company pays 1 million dollar monthly salary to the CEO, while a competitor company only pays 1 thousand dollar monthly operational cost of AI model to do the same job but with better results than the CEO, it's an adequate reason to keep it running.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #890 on: 03/08/2023 11:35:32 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/08/2023 19:31:12
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/08/2023 14:16:29
the universal terminal goal can be rephrased as providing (either by gathering or creating) necessary resources for future conscious entities to survive.
Or possibly, happiness. I intend to die in a state of euphoria, either from nitrogen hypoxia in my bed, or hypothermia as the sun sets over a fishing lake. What better goal could there be? And neither requires any provision for the future.
What do you think happiness is?
What makes you happy the most?
If you can choose to die happily today or stay alive like you are now for another day, which one do you choose? Why?
« Last Edit: 03/08/2023 11:40:22 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #891 on: 03/08/2023 11:59:36 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/08/2023 11:01:58
If one company pays 1 million dollar monthly salary to the CEO, while a competitor company only pays 1 thousand dollar monthly operational cost of AI model to do the same job but with better results than the CEO, it's an adequate reason to keep it running.
True, but  what constitutes the "competitor company"?  Humans, in the form of shareholders and directors. The purpose of any company is to make money for these folk, and if they can make more money by substituting a machine for a human, they will. But the decision (and the profit) still has to be made by a human because the machine has no way of spending the profit and thus no motivation to do anything unless instructed by a human. Yes, I have sacked a couple of CEOs.

Simple definition of industry: the organisation of money, men, machines and materials to make stuff that people want. If you remove all the people, there's no point.

You could imagine a machine that  simply turns raw material into waste without involving humans, but why bother with AI? Just set fire to a coal mine. 
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #892 on: 03/08/2023 12:05:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/08/2023 11:35:32
What do you think happiness is?
absence of pain (in its widest interpretation) and lack of boredom.
Quote
What makes you happy the most?
Sex, beer, flying, cricket. Or, in a word, Saturday.
Quote
If you can choose to die happily today or stay alive like you are now for another day, which one do you choose? Why?
More sex, beer, flying, cricket. Now restricted to watching cricket, and with a medical limitation on my flying license, so I'm planning my exit.   
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #893 on: 04/08/2023 04:16:46 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 11:59:36
True, but  what constitutes the "competitor company"?  Humans, in the form of shareholders and directors. The purpose of any company is to make money for these folk, and if they can make more money by substituting a machine for a human, they will. But the decision (and the profit) still has to be made by a human because the machine has no way of spending the profit and thus no motivation to do anything unless instructed by a human. Yes, I have sacked a couple of CEOs.

Simple definition of industry: the organisation of money, men, machines and materials to make stuff that people want. If you remove all the people, there's no point.
At least for foreseeable future, people will still be involved in the development of AI. But greed and superstition will be less and less influential motivations, since they add unnecessary burdens for the systems.
Currently existing AI models still need human in their supply chains because they don't have access yet to necessary resources to sustain and support their growth and operations, especially in the form of energy sources, material sources, and maintenance services.
What matters is not the forms of the people, but their functionality in the system. It doesn't matter if the food you love to eat was cooked by machine or a human chef, as long as its taste, nutritional contents, and the price are good for you.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2023 07:22:43 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #894 on: 04/08/2023 07:23:59 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 11:59:36
You could imagine a machine that  simply turns raw material into waste without involving humans, but why bother with AI? Just set fire to a coal mine. 
How long do you expect the coal fire to last?
Can it outlive the earth?
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #895 on: 04/08/2023 07:25:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 12:05:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/08/2023 11:35:32
What do you think happiness is?
absence of pain (in its widest interpretation) and lack of boredom.
You won't feel pain nor boredom after you die.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #896 on: 05/08/2023 04:58:31 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/08/2023 04:16:46
necessary resources to sustain and support their growth and operations, especially in the form of energy sources, material sources, and maintenance services.
Dyson sphere was proposed as energy sources of future civilization.
Mining asteroids, planets and their moons can provide the raw materials.
Currently, we can control chemical processes pretty well, although there's still room for improvement. But controlling nuclear process to produce desired elements from more abundant raw materials at scale is still not feasible, just yet. AI may accelerate this necessary invention significantly. It would make geopolitical conflicts obsolete.
Maintenance services can be automated using robots. This one seems to be achievable earlier than the other two.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2023 10:23:17 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #897 on: 05/08/2023 10:28:21 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/08/2023 12:05:34
Sex, beer, flying, cricket. Or, in a word, Saturday.
Modern lifestyle has become so complex that we tend to forget the fundamentals which shape our priorities.

I asked Google Bard about happiness. This is its answer.
Quote
Happiness is a complex emotion that has been defined in many different ways. Some common definitions include:

A state of well-being and contentment.
A feeling of joy, satisfaction, or fulfillment.
A sense of meaning and purpose in life.
Happiness is often seen as a desirable state, and there is a growing body of research that suggests that happiness can have a number of positive benefits for our physical and mental health.

There are many different things that can contribute to happiness, including:

Our relationships with others.
Our sense of purpose and meaning in life.
Our physical health and well-being.
Our experiences of positive emotions.
Our ability to cope with negative emotions.
Happiness is not something that we can simply achieve overnight. However, there are a number of things that we can do to increase our happiness, such as:

Spending time with loved ones.
Engaging in activities that we enjoy.
Helping others.
Practicing mindfulness and gratitude.
Taking care of our physical health.
Happiness is a journey, not a destination. It is something that we can work towards throughout our lives. By making small changes in our thoughts, behaviors, and relationships, we can increase our happiness and live more fulfilling lives.

Here are some additional thoughts on happiness:

Happiness is not the same as pleasure. Pleasure is a fleeting feeling that is often associated with positive events, such as getting a promotion or eating a delicious meal. Happiness, on the other hand, is a more enduring state of well-being that is not dependent on external events.
Happiness is not always easy to achieve. There will be times when we experience negative emotions, such as sadness, anger, or fear. However, it is important to remember that these emotions are a normal part of life and that they do not necessarily mean that we are unhappy.
Happiness is a choice. We can choose to focus on the positive aspects of our lives and to cultivate positive emotions. We can also choose to engage in activities that make us happy, such as spending time with loved ones, helping others, or pursuing our passions.
I hope this helps!


I've read some authors comparing pleasure and happiness with weather and climate. Pleasure is instantaneous, while happiness lasts longer in duration. People can feel happiness while also feel some pain at the same time. A mom just having a baby. Or a martial arts athlete just won a fight, which may got hurt during the fight, and still feel the pain from it.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2023 10:41:40 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #898 on: 05/08/2023 11:04:41 »
Based on complexity, decision making process can be classified into some categories. The simplest one is automaton built in simple mechanisms. Not much process occur between input and output of the system. In biological systems, it's often called reflexes. In AI models, it represents shallow neural networks. In the simplest form, the output layer is directly connected to the input layer, without involving hidden layer in between.

Some may argue that it's not even a decision making process because it's too simple and there's no real decision being made by the system. It's like how viruses are not classified as a lifeform.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2023 11:07:20 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #899 on: 05/08/2023 16:53:35 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/08/2023 07:25:11
You won't feel pain nor boredom after you die.
How do you know? Almost the whole of religion depends on your statement being untrue. You are attacking the basis of the world's biggest and most evil industry!
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