[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I think we have reached agreement

Eating humans can't be a universal terminal goal. There are places and time where it cannot be achieved, eg. before humans even existed, and everywhere else other than the earth.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

What's the similarities and differences between morality and economics

?U.S. Gov. Can?t Go Bankrupt - We Print Our Own Money!? Says Biden?s Advisor

Biden economic adviser Jared Bernstein delivers a word salad on how the Fed works.

It's dangerous to let misinformed people affect decisions that would have significant impacts on larger society.

IMO the most accurate model for fiat money is as share of stake or ownership of the entity publishing it. Printing more money means diluting the share of existing owners and concentrating the value of the money to those who control the entity.

[alancalverd]

Eating humans can't be a universal terminal goal. There are places and time where it cannot be achieved, eg. before humans even existed, and everywhere else other than the earth.

If your definition of a TG requires a guess as to the goals of species that have not yet evolved, and ignores the goals of those that exist, it has no basis in fact, and is personal, not universal.

[alancalverd]

Like the man said, a government can print more money, but in doing so it devalues its own currency.

Bankruptcy isn't the problem. What matters is whether people will accept the paper in exchange for goods and services. The Weimar Republic printed billion-mark notes but the common unit of exchange was food or gold. The crunch comes when the military and civil service can't afford to eat, so walk away from doing the business of government.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Eating humans can't be a universal terminal goal. There are places and time where it cannot be achieved, eg. before humans even existed, and everywhere else other than the earth.

If your definition of a TG requires a guess as to the goals of species that have not yet evolved, and ignores the goals of those that exist, it has no basis in fact, and is personal, not universal.

It requires no guessing nor speculation. It comes from the first principles, provided the proper definition of the words universal, terminal, and goal.

What makes you stuck with the concept of species?

[alancalverd]

The concept of species arises not only from the morphology but also the behavior of living things. At its simplest, some living things eat or poison others, thus establishing a clear division of goals, say between plants and animals, and further exploration of the difference in goals leads us towards classification in termjs of species.

The concept is an aid to clear thinking.

However you define universal and terminal, it is clear that they cannot be applied simultaneously to goal.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The concept of species arises not only from the morphology but also the behavior of living things. At its simplest, some living things eat or poison others, thus establishing a clear division of goals, say between plants and animals, and further exploration of the difference in goals leads us towards classification in termjs of species.

The concept is an aid to clear thinking.
 

It's well documented that cannibalism is common in some species. And individual from the same species can have highly different behaviors.

The same goal can be achieved in different ways in different situations.
Eating something or poisoning others are instrumental goals. You can find the terminal goal by asking why they had to be done? What happens when they are not done?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

However you define universal and terminal, it is clear that they cannot be applied simultaneously to goal.

Here is how I defined them:

The only similarity applicable to every conscious being, regardless of their shape, form, size, and ingredients, is that they want to extend the existence of consciousness further into the future.

I realise that I have expressed the idea of universal terminal goal in some different ways. I feel that this one is the least controversial and easiest to follow.

So, I think I have arrived to the final conclusion about universal terminal goal. It came from definitions of each word in the phrase, and take their implications into account. Goal is the noun, while terminal and universal are the adjectives that describe the noun.

The word Goal means preferred state or condition in the future. If it's not preferred, it can't be a goal. If it's already happened in the past, it can't be a goal either. Although it's possible that the goal is to make future condition similar to preferred condition in the past as reference. The preference requires the existence of at least one conscious entity. Preference can't exist in a universe without consciousness, so can't a goal.
add: The definition of goal can be made more compact to become "pursued condition". Because the word "pursue" already implies preference and future condition.

The word Terminal requires that the goal is seen from the persepective of conscious entities that exist in the furthest conceivable future. If the future point of reference is too close to the present, it would expire soon and the goal won't be usable anymore.

The word Universal requires that no other constraint should be added to the goal determined by aforementioned words. The only valid constraints have already been set by the words goal and terminal.

I've summarized the core concepts of the thread into some videos which I collected in a playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2PyRUoub7jJFt6uQ8Osxdg8zLtLN_1m

You seem to interpret "universal" as an additional requirement applied to the concept of goal which we already have in mind. On the contrary, you should interpret it as a prohibition from adding more requirement to the concept of goal that has been previously defined. This backward thinking has inevitably led you to the wrong conclusion.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

With Spatial Intelligence, AI Will Understand the Real World | Fei-Fei Li | TED

In the beginning of the universe, all was darkness ? until the first organisms developed sight, which ushered in an explosion of life, learning and progress. AI pioneer Fei-Fei Li says a similar moment is about to happen for computers and robots. She shows how machines are gaining "spatial intelligence" ? the ability to process visual data, make predictions and act upon those predictions ? and shares how this could enable AI to interact with humans in the real world.

[alancalverd]

You seem to interpret "universal" as an additional requirement applied to the concept of goal which we already have in mind. On the contrary, you should interpret it as a prohibition from adding more requirement to the concept of goal that has been previously defined. This backward thinking has inevitably led you to the wrong conclusion.

You use the word "preferred". Preferred by who or what? I have shown you that different conscious entities (by which I presume you mean living things) have different, competing and even mutually exclusive  preferences.

[paul cotter]

The great diversity of human cultures together with the even greater diversity in living creatures absolutely rules out any common goal. QED.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You seem to interpret "universal" as an additional requirement applied to the concept of goal which we already have in mind. On the contrary, you should interpret it as a prohibition from adding more requirement to the concept of goal that has been previously defined. This backward thinking has inevitably led you to the wrong conclusion.

You use the word "preferred". Preferred by who or what? I have shown you that different conscious entities (by which I presume you mean living things) have different, competing and even mutually exclusive  preferences.

Preferred by anything who can have preference, ie. conscious entities, regardless their size, shapes, or chemical compositions.
Competition is not something that always determines decisions. An entity who lives alone with no significant interactions with other entities can ignore competition. Environment with abundant resources can also reduce competition pressure, especially if the entities consuming those resources can restrain themselves from depleting the resources, ie. has adequate level of consciousness to behave sustainably.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The great diversity of human cultures together with the even greater diversity in living creatures absolutely rules out any common goal. QED.

Before looking at common goal and then fail miserably, you should first define goal itself. Then identify what characteristic is common among every goal, thus anything that doesn't have that characteristic is not a goal.

You seem to interpret "universal" as an additional requirement applied to the concept of goal which we already have in mind. On the contrary, you should interpret it as a prohibition from adding more requirement to the concept of goal that has been previously defined. This backward thinking has inevitably led you to the wrong conclusion.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

What if Generative AI can generate biology? | Geoff von Maltzahn | TEDxMIT

Over the course of human medicine, new advances have arisen through two processes: Discovery and Engineering. With the rise of generative AI, many new biotechnologies will arise through another word: Generate.

Billions of years of Nature's discoveries have created the living world around us and an extraordinary diversity of protein molecules, which serve as the engines of life and a large portion of modern medicines. Despite the immensity of protein diversity in biology, Nature and medicine have only had the opportunity to sample a minuscule fraction of the vast expanses of possible proteins. 

Inspired generative AI advances in images and language several years ago, we asked "What if ... we can generate biology?"

Our results in generating antibodies, proteins, and peptides hint at a new era of Generative Biology to come, where generative AI and machine intelligence help us understand the language of DNA, the functions it encodes for the bounty of protein machines and medicines, and the secrets to creating extraordinary new medicines.  This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community.

[alancalverd]

What if Generative AI can generate biology?

As with all biology, it will either fail in competition with existing biology, dominate over it, or exploit a previously unexplored ecological niche. Biology is competitive, with no silver medals.

So which outcome do you want?

[paul cotter]

"Goal" is a common everyday word, it does not need to be defined. Hamdani pulls this stunt every time he loses an argument and nothing useful can be achieved with this attitude. Again i'm out.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

What if Generative AI can generate biology?

As with all biology, it will either fail in competition with existing biology, dominate over it, or exploit a previously unexplored ecological niche. Biology is competitive, with no silver medals.

Do you think it offers gold medal?

So which outcome do you want?

Evolutionary processes including competition and cooperation, either natural or accelerated in virtual environment, can provide us with adequate tools to pass great filters in time, before we have to face them.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

"Goal" is a common everyday word, it does not need to be defined. Hamdani pulls this stunt every time he loses an argument and nothing useful can be achieved with this attitude. Again i'm out.

If you already failed to define even a common everyday word, it won't be surprising that you'll also fail to follow up with subsequent reasonings. But we shouldn't be discouraged, even though people from around the world in the past millennia had also tried and failed to define the universal terminal goal. Our past failure shouldn't define our future.

[alancalverd]

people from around the world in the past millennia had also tried and failed to define the universal terminal goal.

Because (a) people are not significant parts of the universe, or even of the terrestrial biosphere and (b) by definition there cannot be a UTG for living things.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

people from around the world in the past millennia had also tried and failed to define the universal terminal goal.

Because (a) people are not significant parts of the universe, or even of the terrestrial biosphere and (b) by definition there cannot be a UTG for living things.

(a) How does it have anything to do with the definition of goal?

(b) Then you have defined it wrong.