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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1500 on: 13/07/2024 07:03:19 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/07/2024 04:01:42
The next question follows naturally, how to define pursuing?
A condition is said to be pursued if actions and inaction are deliberately made in the expectations of making it more likely to become fulfilled in reality. It means that pursuant can be done through either action or inaction.
Here's some examples of intentional action and inaction.
- You're going home from work driving your car on a long straight highway. The fuel/ battery indicator shows low level. You can either take an action to refill the fuel/recharge the battery, or take no action and go with initial plan on driving home. Both options have their corresponding risks.
« Last Edit: 13/07/2024 07:05:49 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1501 on: 13/07/2024 07:18:09 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/07/2024 04:01:42
The determining factor is the intention of making that action or inaction,
As the determining factor, we need to pay more attention to the definition of intention.
Quote
a thing intended; an aim or plan.

What is the true meaning of intention?
An intention is idea that you plan (or intend) to carry out. If you mean something, it's an intention. Your goal, purpose, or aim is your intention. It's something you mean to do, whether you pull it off or not.
An intention requires a virtualization of preferred future condition. It takes up some space in the memory of conscious entities.
« Last Edit: 13/07/2024 07:28:03 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1502 on: 13/07/2024 07:33:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/07/2024 04:01:42
and the expectation that the result can be affected by the different options taken.
A preferred future condition cannot be a goal if we are already convinced that  it cannot be affected by our action or inaction. That's where causality model in the mind of conscious entities play a role in defining goals.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1503 on: 13/07/2024 08:02:49 »
Physicist explains consciousness | Sara Walker and Lex Fridman
Quote
GUEST BIO:
Sara Walker is an astrobiologist and theoretical physicist. She is the author of a new book titled "Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence".
Here's another discussion on consciousness without properly define it first.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1504 on: 13/07/2024 08:50:25 »
I asked Claude Sonnet
Is consciousness irreducible?
Quote
The question of whether consciousness is irreducible is a complex and contentious topic in philosophy of mind, neuroscience, and related fields. There are differing viewpoints on this matter:

1. Arguments for irreducibility:

   - Some philosophers, like David Chalmers, argue that consciousness is irreducible. This view, often called "non-reductive physicalism" or "property dualism," suggests that conscious experiences (qualia) cannot be fully explained by physical processes alone.
   
   - The "hard problem of consciousness" posited by Chalmers suggests that even if we explain all the functional and behavioral aspects of consciousness, we still wouldn't fully account for subjective experience.

   - Some argue that the subjective, first-person nature of consciousness makes it fundamentally different from objective, third-person physical phenomena, and thus irreducible to them.

2. Arguments against irreducibility:

   - Reductive physicalists argue that consciousness can, in principle, be fully explained by physical processes in the brain. They believe that as our understanding of neuroscience advances, we will be able to account for all aspects of consciousness.

   - Emergentists suggest that consciousness, while not directly reducible to individual neural processes, emerges from the complex interactions of these processes.

   - Some scientists, like Giulio Tononi with his Integrated Information Theory, propose that consciousness can be quantified and potentially reduced to information processing patterns in the brain.

3. Middle ground:

   - Some thinkers propose that while aspects of consciousness might be reducible, the totality of conscious experience might not be. This view suggests a kind of "weak emergence" where consciousness arises from, but is not fully reducible to, physical processes.

The debate remains open, and there's no scientific consensus. The question touches on fundamental issues about the nature of reality, the relationship between mind and matter, and the limits of scientific explanation.

It's worth noting that even if consciousness were theoretically reducible, the practical challenges of such a reduction would be enormous given the complexity of the brain and the subjective nature of experience.
The first position above relies on inability to fully explain conscious experience, even in principle.
The second position disagrees. At least in principle, conscious experience can be fully explained.
« Last Edit: 13/07/2024 09:02:28 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1505 on: 13/07/2024 14:24:34 »
Why Modern Humans Feel So Empty - Daniel Schmachtenberger
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In this video, Daniel Schmachtenberger explains how economic incentives are misaligned with the well-being of humanity. This animation is a clip from the Before Skool Podcast with Daniel Schmachtenberger, Episode # 20.

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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1506 on: 13/07/2024 14:48:44 »
Try asking a few chatbots "what is consciousness" and see if you get a meaningful, useful, consistent answer.

This modern human does not feel empty. Nor, indeed, do my friends and descendants.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1507 on: 15/07/2024 10:53:30 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/07/2024 14:48:44
Try asking a few chatbots "what is consciousness" and see if you get a meaningful, useful, consistent answer.
I asked Gemini.
Quote
Consciousness is a complex and elusive phenomenon that has puzzled philosophers and scientists for centuries. At its core, it refers to the awareness of one's internal and external existence. It's that subjective experience of being you, perceiving the world, and having thoughts, feelings, and sensations.

Key aspects of consciousness:
Subjectivity: It's a personal experience unique to each individual.
Awareness: It involves being conscious of one's surroundings and internal states.
Self-awareness: Understanding oneself as a distinct entity.
Qualia: The subjective qualities of experience, like the redness of red or the pain of a headache.
The Challenge of Defining Consciousness
Despite its familiarity, consciousness is incredibly difficult to define precisely. We can describe its characteristics, but capturing its essence in a single sentence is elusive. This is partly due to the subjective nature of conscious experience and the complex interplay of neural processes involved.

Theories of Consciousness
Numerous theories attempt to explain consciousness, including:

Global Workspace Theory: Consciousness arises from information being broadcast globally in the brain.
Integrated Information Theory: Consciousness is a property of complex systems that integrate information.
Higher-Order Thought Theory: Consciousness requires thoughts about mental states.
It's important to note that there is no universally accepted theory of consciousness, and the field is still actively researched.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1508 on: 15/07/2024 10:58:00 »
This is the answer by Claude.
Quote
Consciousness is a complex and much-debated concept in philosophy, neuroscience, and psychology. It generally refers to our subjective, first-person experience of the world and our own mental states. Key aspects of consciousness include:

Awareness: Being cognizant of one's environment, thoughts, and sensations.
Subjective experience: The personal, qualitative nature of conscious experiences, often called "qualia."
Self-awareness: Recognition of oneself as an individual entity.
Intentionality: The ability to have thoughts about things.
Wakefulness: Being awake and responsive to stimuli.

There are several theories and perspectives on consciousness:

Neuroscientific approaches: Attempt to identify neural correlates of consciousness in the brain.
Philosophical theories:

Dualism: Consciousness is separate from the physical brain.
Materialism: Consciousness arises from physical processes in the brain.
Panpsychism: Consciousness is a fundamental property of all matter.


Integrated Information Theory: Proposes that consciousness is intrinsic to certain physical systems.
Global Workspace Theory: Suggests consciousness emerges from the global broadcasting of information in the brain.

Despite extensive research, the nature of consciousness remains one of the most puzzling questions in science and philosophy. The "hard problem of consciousness" - explaining how and why we have subjective, qualitative experiences - continues to challenge our understanding.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1509 on: 15/07/2024 11:02:27 »
What is Consciousness? With Neil deGrasse Tyson & George Mashour
Quote
What is consciousness? Neil deGrasse Tyson and comedian Chuck Nice learn about the study of consciousness and how psychedelics could help illuminate the inner mechanisms of the brain with anesthesiologist and founder of the Michigan Psychedelic Center, George Mashour.

How do you study consciousness? We break down what a medically-induced coma is and how we would define a conscious being. What do we still not understand about consciousness? Is it located in a particular part of the brain? We discuss consciousness across species, panpsychism, and the emerging consciousness of babies. Could consciousness be applied to machines?

We discuss cognitive evolution and the different categories of consciousness theories. How will we know if a computer is conscious? We discuss how machines might achieve consciousness and whether replicating a human brain neuron by neuron would yield the same results as the original.

Learn about how psychedelics could help us uncover the inner mechanism of the brain. Why would putting chemicals in the brain help us understand it better? Do drugs help us understand objective reality better? We break down the conscious experience and what the brain is really doing.


00:00 - Introduction: Consciousness
4:30 - What is a Medically Induced Coma?
6:55 - What is Consciousness?
12:00 - Panpsychism & Consciousness in Other Animals
16:35 - Self Recognition & Perception
19:24 - Computers Achieving Sentience & Replicating Consciousness
24:41 - Psychedelics to Understand the Conscious Mind
31:07 - Psychedelics for Therapy
37:28 - The Birth of a Field
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1510 on: 15/07/2024 17:18:42 »
So no useful definition.

Key aspects of my car;
It has four wheels
It has a number
It weighs about a ton
It hasn't been washed for several years

but that doesn't define a car, and saying that a key aspect of consciousness involves being conscious is about as useful.
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dRe: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1511 on: 15/07/2024 20:54:40 »
Very good, Alan, my car only gets a wash prior to it's NCT(watered down version of your MOT).
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1512 on: 16/07/2024 05:48:06 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 15/07/2024 17:18:42
So no useful definition.

Key aspects of my car;
It has four wheels
It has a number
It weighs about a ton
It hasn't been washed for several years

but that doesn't define a car, and saying that a key aspect of consciousness involves being conscious is about as useful.

A useful definition should be able to distinguish between something and something else.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1513 on: 16/07/2024 09:12:06 »
An elephant weighs about a ton, but doesn't have wheels or a number, and tends to wash itself  at every opportunity. You can use it for transport, but it isn't a car. So my statement is actually more useful than any definition of consciousness.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1514 on: 16/07/2024 12:40:00 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/07/2024 09:12:06
An elephant weighs about a ton, but doesn't have wheels or a number, and tends to wash itself  at every opportunity. You can use it for transport, but it isn't a car. So my statement is actually more useful than any definition of consciousness.
If a car loses one wheel because someone has stolen it, does it stop being a car?
How do you define useful?
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1515 on: 19/07/2024 03:32:00 »
I've compared many definitions of consciousness offered by various sources. They are mostly focused on input interface and information processing ability. They also emphasize on subjectivity. The video I posted previously is an example.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/07/2024 11:02:27
6:55 - What is Consciousness?
There might be differences in emphasis on the aspects of consciousness from different fields, like medical, legal, or philosophical perspectives.
So far, the most concise definition of consciousness I have found is the capacity to pursue goals. Of course, the words capacity, pursue, and goal also need to be defined further.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1516 on: 20/07/2024 13:29:46 »
Carl Sagan testifying before Congress in 1985 on climate change
Quote
United Nations ? Climate change refers to long-term shifts in temperatures and weather patterns. Human activities have been the main driver of climate change, primarily due to the burning of fossil fuels like coal, oil and gas.

DECEMBER 10, 1985

?Witnesses testified on how the greenhouse effect will change the global climate system and possible solutions.?

16:25 He said about global consciousness.
Quote
His closing message was succent and spot on:
"I think that what is essential for this problem is a global consciousness. A view that transcends our exclusive identifications with the generational and political groupings into which, by accident, we have been born. The solution to these problems requires a perspective that embraces the planet and the future, because we are all in this greenhouse together."
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1517 on: 21/07/2024 04:24:03 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/07/2024 12:40:00
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/07/2024 09:12:06
An elephant weighs about a ton, but doesn't have wheels or a number, and tends to wash itself  at every opportunity. You can use it for transport, but it isn't a car. So my statement is actually more useful than any definition of consciousness.
If a car loses one wheel because someone has stolen it, does it stop being a car?
How do you define useful?
Something is said to be useful if it helps increasing the chance to achieve goals effectively and efficiently.
Something can be thought to be useful, but after more thorough analysis, it turns out to be useless or even harmful. The final conclusion is determined by how it affects our terminal goal.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1518 on: 21/07/2024 07:41:14 »
Christof Koch - What Is Consciousness?
Quote
Consciousness is what we can know best and explain least. It is the inner subjective experience of what it feels like to see red or smell garlic or hear Beethoven. Consciousness has intrigued and baffled philosophers. To begin, we must define and describe consciousness. What to include in a complete definition and description of consciousness?

Christof Koch is a German-American neurophysiologist and computational neuroscientist best known for his work on the neural basis of consciousness. He was the president and chief scientist of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. He remains at the Institute as a Meritorious Investigator.
The video description states the importance of definition and description of consciousness to understand it. Unfortunately the video doesn't adequately touch the former.
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Re: Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
« Reply #1519 on: 21/07/2024 11:04:06 »
https://youtube.com/shorts/52PdEZ25nzY?feature=shared
Eye Witness of Evolution

What Caused Life's Major Evolutionary Transitions?
Quote
Join us as we explore the fascinating transition from early cells to multi-celled animals. This transition, as well as several other major evolutionary transitions, dramatically increased the complexity of lifeforms on our planet.
OVERVIEW OF MAJOR TRANSITIONS

This animation was based on a paper by Stuart West et al called Major Evolutionary Transitions in Individuality which can be accessed free here: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/33/10...

Dr West's paper defines major transitions in a slightly narrower way than earlier workers on the subject. For a broader definition see the book by John Maynard Smith and E?rs Szathm?ry on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maj...

MITOCHONDRIA

The paper by Dr Margulis (Sagan) on the origin of mitochondria. Note that in it she presents several ideas cautiously as hypothesis. While some aspects of the paper are now known to be incorrect, she was spot on about the origin of mitochondria: http://web.gps.caltech.edu/classes/ge...

VIROIDS

The free living genes discovered by Dr Diener were made of RNA. Here is a paper on them: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/...

Here is an excellent Wikipedia article on them I suggest looking over first. It includes a schematic of the species Diener found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid

EXPERIMENTS SHOWN IN THIS ANIMATION

Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multicellularity: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1...

Experimental evolution of multicellularity:
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/5/1595

Auto-/heterotrophic endosymbiosis evolves in a mature stage of ecosystem development in a microcosm composed of an alga, a bacterium and a ciliate [what a catchy title!]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...

Key moments
0:46 Major evolutionary transitions
2:27 Lynn Margulis
5:23 Evolution of cooperation
Similar situation to the case in the short video may had happened in the forming of social structures of multicellular organisms, including humans.
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