[Tanny (OP)]

So who are we?   You claim that yourself is in involvement in the hiring of scientists, I assume you must be a politician?

We are the public, of whom I am a part. 

[Tanny (OP)]

The problem you are ignoring is the very fact that if something is identified, it is no longer a UFO. So to claim to have  touched a UFO is a lie.

1) Have you watched the videos? 

2) The UFOs in the story were (according to claims) touched, not identified. 

[guest39538]

The problem you are ignoring is the very fact that if something is identified, it is no longer a UFO. So to claim to have  touched a UFO is a lie.

1) Have you watched the videos? 

2) The UFOs in the story were (according to claims) touched, not identified. 

I have watched possibly 100's of videos on UFO's in my time . Once you have seen one you have more or less seen them all.
I do not let videos corrupt my own mind and my own thoughts.   If a person is touching something and I presume they can see, they can identify that something , so no longer is it a UFO. They can describe what they touched and give it meaningful context, i.e I touched what looked like a spaceship

Most videos of UFO's show unidentified somethings, the ones that get my interest is the ones that can change velocity. These are the ones that are of importance. Normal matter, e'g rocks  , can not change velocity without Newtons laws applying, so if a UFO stops in flight, then there is something really suspicious about this and these could be controlled things.

[Tanny (OP)]

So where are the Naked Scientists?  Do they participate on their own forum?  Hey, I'm not fussy, I'll even take scientists with their clothes on.   How do we raise the game here?  Isn't this a perfect environment for everyone including scientists to engage this issue?  Everyone can participate anonymously so nobody needs to worry about their reputation and career etc, right?

I've done the homework of watching dozens of UFO videos and dismissing the junk so reader's time won't be wasted and we can focus on a few quality videos.  One of those videos, UFOs The Secret History, was put together by an astro-physicist.  A couple of astronauts share their belief in UFOs in both that video and Out Of The Blue.  There's no good reason to dismiss these intelligent, educated, experienced people out of hand.

Anybody here know the Naked Scientists who own this site?  As a place to start, how do we get them involved in this discussion?  Why shouldn't this web site and the Naked Scientists be the leaders in engaging the scientific community in what could be the biggest story of all time?  Somebody has to get that ball rolling, why not us?

Let's rescue this place from being just another little forum almost nobody pays any attention to.   

[Tanny (OP)]

I have watched possibly 100's of videos on UFO's in my time . Once you have seen one you have more or less seen them all.

Ok, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about so I'm gonna have to let you go.  Sorry, no personal offense intended, but we either have to raise the game here or I need to be gone before I get bored and grumpy.

[guest39538]

I have watched possibly 100's of videos on UFO's in my time . Once you have seen one you have more or less seen them all.

Ok, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about so I'm gonna have to let you go.  Sorry, no personal offense intended, but we either have to raise the game here or I need to be gone before I get bored and grumpy.

Really?  I am really the wrong person on this forum to try and pit wits against.  Your threats to leave because you are bored is not a worry to anybody on this forum.  Why do you think you are so special? 

A few videos do not make facts.  Facts make facts and axioms provide facts.   

I think what you really mean is that if we speak science and involve Newton's laws etc, you won't get it.   However if we turn this into a science  fiction debate, then you being a trecky and all, you would understand it.
I know more about aliens than you could ever dream up and could provide far superior proof than you can.

[atbsphotography]

UFO's are such a broad spectrum of objects, in a sense UFO's are real, just not in the way most people think. For example, someone seeing a silhouette of a helium balloon could interpret that as a UFO in nature, purely because they cannot fully make out what they are seeing, so in essence we know it is a helium balloon because we can see it in the light but a person viewing the aforementioned balloon from a mile away wouldn't know what it is if they saw it as a silhouette. So person A, who knows it is nothing more than a helium balloon can state that as a fact, but person B who is a mile away would believe it is an unidentified flying object and that would also be a fact. The two people who can see the same object but from a mile apart are both right if one only looks at it logically. Therefore the existence of UFO's is a reality but the jury is out if they are Alien in nature.

[guest39538]

UFO's are such a broad spectrum of objects, in a sense UFO's are real, just not in the way most people think. For example, someone seeing a silhouette of a helium balloon could interpret that as a UFO in nature, purely because they cannot fully make out what they are seeing, so in essence we know it is a helium balloon because we can see it in the light but a person viewing the aforementioned balloon from a mile away wouldn't know what it is if they saw it as a silhouette. So person A, who knows it is nothing more than a helium balloon can state that as a fact, but person B who is a mile away would believe it is an unidentified flying object and that would also be a fact. The two people who can see the same object but from a mile apart are both right if one only looks at it logically. Therefore the existence of UFO's is a reality but the jury is out if they are Alien in nature.

Good answer atb, like I have being trying to explain to the opp.

However, I can show alien existence for real without the aid of you-tube videos. I have astounding axiom facts of logic. P=1

[atbsphotography]

UFO's are such a broad spectrum of objects, in a sense UFO's are real, just not in the way most people think. For example, someone seeing a silhouette of a helium balloon could interpret that as a UFO in nature, purely because they cannot fully make out what they are seeing, so in essence we know it is a helium balloon because we can see it in the light but a person viewing the aforementioned balloon from a mile away wouldn't know what it is if they saw it as a silhouette. So person A, who knows it is nothing more than a helium balloon can state that as a fact, but person B who is a mile away would believe it is an unidentified flying object and that would also be a fact. The two people who can see the same object but from a mile apart are both right if one only looks at it logically. Therefore the existence of UFO's is a reality but the jury is out if they are Alien in nature.

Good answer atb, like I, have been trying to explain to the opp.

However, I can show alien existence for real without the aid of you-tube videos. I have astounding axiom facts of logic. P=1

Thanks! I have a good mind for this sort of thing. Please, could you tell me some of these axiom facts? I'm very intrigued.

[guest39538]

UFO's are such a broad spectrum of objects, in a sense UFO's are real, just not in the way most people think. For example, someone seeing a silhouette of a helium balloon could interpret that as a UFO in nature, purely because they cannot fully make out what they are seeing, so in essence we know it is a helium balloon because we can see it in the light but a person viewing the aforementioned balloon from a mile away wouldn't know what it is if they saw it as a silhouette. So person A, who knows it is nothing more than a helium balloon can state that as a fact, but person B who is a mile away would believe it is an unidentified flying object and that would also be a fact. The two people who can see the same object but from a mile apart are both right if one only looks at it logically. Therefore the existence of UFO's is a reality but the jury is out if they are Alien in nature.

Good answer atb, like I, have been trying to explain to the opp.

However, I can show alien existence for real without the aid of you-tube videos. I have astounding axiom facts of logic. P=1

Thanks! I have a good mind for this sort of thing. Please, could you tell me some of these axiom facts? I'm very intrigued.

see other thread I started, it is an easy one to prove, quite brainless really doesn't take much thinking

[Tanny (OP)]

Therefore the existence of UFO's is a reality but the jury is out if they are Alien in nature.

It seems there are two basic questions.

1) Are there non-human objects flying around the sky under intelligent control of some kind?  This is typically what people mean by  "UFO". 

2) If the answer to #1 is yes, then what is the nature of the intelligent control?  Aliens?  Future humans?  Beings from another dimension?  Something else?

To me, just one vote, the videos listed above do a pretty compelling job of making the case for #1.    But when it comes to #2 I see little beyond interesting speculation.

Imho, even if the entire phenomena can be explained as a case of mistaken identity, the scale of the mistake still merits serious investigation.  Thus, I'm quite suspicious of any cultural consensus which suggests this is just a big bunch of nothing which isn't worth our time. 

Finally, the logic math here is quite challenging.  In order for skeptics to be right every single one of the thousands of UFO reports have to be wrong.  In order for the UFO believers to be right, only one case needs to be a real UFO.

[atbsphotography]

  Are there non-human objects flying around the sky under intelligent control of some kind?  This is typically what people mean by  "UFO".

If I've read this right you mean non-human as in not human in nature? Or not manufactured by humans? If your answer is the former then I should think you can include drones, planes or just about anything in the sky we control, we are all an intelligent species. ( Some of us anyway)
My original statement still stands in this case;

So person A, who knows it is nothing more than a helium balloon can state that as a fact, but person B who is a mile away would believe it is an unidentified flying object and that would also be a fact. The two people who can see the same object but from a mile apart are both right if one only looks at it logically.

As for;

In order for skeptics to be right every single one of the thousands of UFO reports have to be wrong.  In order for the UFO believers to be right, only one case needs to be a real UFO.

How many of these reported UFO sightings were seen on a night, from far away or from someone looking up at a high altitude object? There is a simple answer to nearly all these cases, these are as follows;

• Night sightings - Most things that are ordinary in nature take on a darker hue on a night, people may think a simple object is a UFO, as much as that is right to you, someone may know what it is and thus they don't make the assumption that it is a UFO.
• Objects from far away & high altitude objects. - Fairly few people have eyesight that good. If they did then my statement still stands.

Again two people can state differing facts, ultimately they are right by means of what they see.

[Tanny (OP)]

Well, ok, same question to you as to everyone else.  Have you watched any of the videos listed above? 

I ask because you don't yet seem to grasp the credibility of some of those making reports.  Of course anyone, however credible, can make a mistake.  But as the number of incidents and credible reporters begins to pile up it gets harder to dismiss them all.

I would agree that many or most cases are almost certainly to be mis-identification as you suggest.  No problem there.  But that doesn't solve anything. 

The relevant question is, are _ALL_ of the cases mis-identifications, hoaxes or other false information?  That's what skeptics have to claim.  Every single case, wrong.

[PmbPhy]

Are UFOs real?  Are people who report sightings seeing something that is actually there?  Or is this whole phenomena just a massive pile of confusion and hype?

If you're asking whether people have seen objects which are flying which they and nobody else could identify then yes, they exist. I know of at least one case I can count on - My own. However the UFO was so far in the distance in utter darkness on a very long straight highway in New Mexico I couldn't tell if it was flying or on the ground. We were driving along the highway and we never got close to it even though we sped up to 100mph for a while and slowed down to 30 mph for a while it never got further away.

Other than that Jimmy Carter, former president of the USA, also saw a UFO. I even recall one of NASA
's astronauts from the Apollo program seeing one. Then there's the case from Bentwaters AFB in England. The base commander himself reported seeing one along with fellow AFB men. On two consecutive nights if I recall correctly. What I regret about that instance is I was in the USAF at the time. I was originally assigned to that base and had I not had it changed to a base in the USA I could have been there when it happened. Then again I might have missed it altogether and have missed the one we saw on the highway that night.  Careful for what you wish for.

Are they aliens? Who knows? I haven't seen any solid evidence of that. Are the humans in advanced spaceships sent back in time from the year 9743? Ya got me. But I find it awfully hard to accept that everyone who reports seeing something a liar or crackpot. There are just too many of them for that.

[Kryptid]

Finally, the logic math here is quite challenging.  In order for skeptics to be right every single one of the thousands of UFO reports have to be wrong.  In order for the UFO believers to be right, only one case needs to be a real UFO.

That doesn't mean that believers are more likely to be right than doubters: "In order for skeptics to be right, every single one of the thousands of free energy machine patents have to not work.  In order for free energy believers to be right, only one needs to work."

[Tanny (OP)]

Are they aliens? Who knows? I haven't seen any solid evidence of that.

Agreed.  The alien theory is one of my primary complaints.  Everyone seems to take it for granted that it's aliens from other worlds.  I haven't seen any evidence that is the case other than people seem at a loss to come up with other explanations and so they've settled on this one.  Even in the abduction  stories, I can't recall anyone quoting the aliens as saying they were from planet XYZ.

But I find it awfully hard to accept that everyone who reports seeing something a liar or crackpot. There are just too many of them for that.

Agree again.  It's the volume of reports from credible witnesses that seems the most compelling.  We can dismiss this or that report, or even most of them, but dismissing them all reveals an unobjective bias, imho.

[atbsphotography]

Have you watched any of the videos listed above? 

I can't say I have, I commented exactly how I see it, I don't need to watch a video to know what it means.

you don't yet seem to grasp the credibility of some of those making reports

I understand that someone credible could well see a UFO, but a problem with credibility is a person who sees's one thing and then a person who sees's another is still correct. Credibility isn't really a factor if you think about it.

The relevant question is, are _ALL_ of the cases mis-identifications, hoaxes or other false information?  That's what skeptics have to claim.  Every single case, wrong.

It's half a dozen of one a dozen of the other, miss identification being 50% and then the real thing is another 50%, as I have already explained two people viewing the same object but under differing conditions are still right. It's still a credible fact, remember I mention person B earlier in the thread? Now, person B saw the balloon as a silhouette and made the assumption that it was a UFO cause they couldn't explain what it really was. Therefore that is correct, and because person A saw it as a balloon and didn't need to make the assumption that it was UFO, they are also correct. Therefore in most instances, the people who see these objects are right and stating facts as I said before.

Even in the abduction  stories

A possible explanation for this would be someone who inadvertently fell asleep/ collapsed while out walking and they had an out of body experience, having had one of these myself ( Thankfully in the comfort of my bed) I can say this as a fact in my own way. Reason being when you have an out of body experience you can sometimes see figures standing near you or distant from you and these figures as anonymous as they are, rarely have identifiable features. Meaning a person who has an out of body experience for the first time could well assume that it was an abduction by aliens based on the characteristics of the experience they had.

[atbsphotography]

Even in the abduction  stories

A possible explanation for this would be someone who inadvertently fell asleep/ collapsed while out walking and they had an out of body experience, having had one of these myself ( Thankfully in the comfort of my bed) I can say this as a fact in my own way. Reason being when you have an out of body experience you can sometimes see figures standing near you or distant from you and these figures as anonymous as they are, rarely have identifiable features. Meaning a person who has an out of body experience for the first time could well assume that it was an abduction by aliens based on the characteristics of the experience they had.

Further proof for this may have come from an experiment in 2011, this is summed up as follows;

In a sleep study by the Out-Of-Body Experience Research Center in Los Angeles, 20 volunteers were instructed to perform a series of mental steps upon waking up or becoming lucid during the night that might lead them to have out-of-body experiences culminating in perceived encounters with aliens. According to lead researcher Michael Raduga, more than half the volunteers experienced at least one full or partial out-of-body experience, and seven of them were able to make contact with UFOs or extraterrestrials during these dream-like experiences.

Take from this what you will, but it is highly likely alien abductions may well just be out of body experiences. 

[Tanny (OP)]

I can't say I have, I commented exactly how I see it, I don't need to watch a video to know what it means.

Should you decide to watch the videos and wish to discuss it further after doing so, happy to join you there.

[atbsphotography]

I can't say I have, I commented exactly how I see it, I don't need to watch a video to know what it means.

Should you decide to watch the videos and wish to discuss it further after doing so, happy to join you there.

As I have already stated I don't really need to watch a video to tell me what I already know, although I am still willing to discuss this with you without the need to watch said videos.