[guest45734]

I don’t yet see enough evidence for non-locality.

Non Locality has been proven many times by many different research groups. Do you just not like the concept of spooky action at the quantum level regardless of the evidence. Googling proof of non locality throws up many pages of results confirming non locality is fact. Quantum cryptology relies on non locality for secure communications.
Including an extra dimension via a membrane connecting all points in space is no big deal

Edit Here is a link claiming proof of non locality https://phys.org/news/2015-11-nist-team-spooky-action-distance.html

[Colin2B]

Just reading the paper mentioned, will reply when fin.

Including an extra dimension via a membrane connecting all points in space is no big deal

It is if it isn’t real.
However, this is new theories and happy to discuss what experiments might be set up to test it.

[guest45734]

Just reading the paper mentioned, will reply when fin.

I would like to know what you think. My opinion on the matter is that there is a lot of nonsense around and it is hard to pick out the wheat from the chafe.

I am guessing that you adhere perhaps to the wave function explanation of entanglement, or maybe put quantum fluctuations down to the heisenburg uncertainty principle. https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1402/1402.4764.pdf

Faster than light communication IF in fact it does happen MAY be via another dimension. Alternative ways of viewing space are on almost every science site I visit, and lets face it they are all just theories. The holographic viewpoint is interesting, projecting 3D space onto a 2D sheet which could be viewed as a membrane. The idea of additional dimensions is not a new idea a 5 D model based on relativity was proposed a long time ago to unify electromagnetism with gravity.

If you want to discuss/develop a SIMPLIFIED theory of everything based on what space is we could start by Applying the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid)
Viewing the expansion and contraction of space (dark energy and gravity) to be driven by quantum fluctuations, which are due to wave functions which exist on the membrane of space, similar to string theory. We can start a build a theory of everything with space as the substance which everything comes out of. Could everything in the universe be put down to electromagnetic waves.

Looking at the Casimir effect we know Quantum fluctuations exist and can be limited in their bandwidth. IF they are a result of travelling waves. Are they absorbed by mass, certainly they are blocked by metal plates. Could a planet block waves of a certain bandwidth or absorb them and create a gravitational effect. The Quantum foam inflow theory by Cahill would sugggest so, also the dark energy inflow also suggests the same if dark energy is viewed as quantum foam.

If you would like to bounce some ideas around based loosely around actual physics NOT nonsense I can come up with some ideas to discuss. One thing I am still not 100% convinced about is non locality, I think understand how it works, using wave functions. (But I can quite happily insert an additional dimension for faster than light communication )

[Colin2B]

Non Locality has been proven many times by many different research groups. Do you just not like the concept of spooky action at the quantum level regardless of the evidence.

sorry, I was in a rush when I posted, I should have said i don’t see enough evidence in the non-locality experiments to suggest any instantaneous or ftl transfer of information.
The results are explained by the probabilities of the wave functions. To quote the article: “The NIST experiments are called Bell tests, so named because in 1964 Irish physicist John Bell showed there are limits to measurement correlations that can be ascribed to local, pre-existing (i.e. realistic) conditions. Additional correlations beyond those limits would require either sending signals faster than the speed of light, which scientists consider impossible, or another mechanism, such as quantum entanglement.”

And the NIST paper: “Quantum mechanics at its heart is a statistical theory. It cannot with certainty predict the outcome of all single events, but instead it predicts probabilities of outcomes. This probabilistic nature of quantum theory is at odds with the determinism inherent in Newtonian physics and relativity, where outcomes can be exactly predicted given sufficient knowledge of a system.”

If you read the NIST paper you will see that they have demonstrated that QM is unlikely to be governed by local realism and hidden variables. They have eliminated a number of loopholes including the possibility of sub-liminal communication, however, that does not imply -nor do they claim - super-liminal communication.

There is a difference between making a measurement that forces the particle to be in a particular state, vs forcing an entangled particle into a particular state which breaks the entanglement. Those are not the same thing, one is a measurement, the other is a change of state followed by a measurement. When people talk about using entanglement for faster-than-light communication, what they want is a measurement procedure that forces a particular outcome. You need to look carefully at quantum computing to realise it does not require the latter.

Yes, you are right that I lean towards a wavefunction explanation in that the behaviour of the entangled particles can be described by the probabilities of the combined wavefunction. The problem is, as you will see from threads on this forum, many people have real difficulties understanding probabilities, even simple ones like a pack of cards. Add to this the metaphors eg many worlds, and calculations eg all paths, and the average punter begins to extend to a reality that doesn’t exist. Yet many of these concepts are applicable to the classical world eg you can work out the trajectory of a cannon ball by assuming it takes all paths. Also I can take a playing card at random from a deck, post it to you without looking and assume that it is in a superposition of 52 states until you look at it when its wavefunction collapses and we know its position and state. The problem is that the quantum world is far more complex.

Yes, happy to discuss hidden dimensions, rather tied up this week but should surface early next week.

[opportunity]

Looking forward to that.

For those who want to know how space works, take your time to consider why time would bullit in a 3-d.....why not 2-d....why 3-d?

[captcass]

It is an impossibility for space to expand.

Spacetime has two aspects, space and time. One does not exist independently of the other and the two aspects must maintain a proportionality to maintain c. The length of a meter must shorten when the rate of time increases to maintain c. Likewise, it must get longer when time slows. In Relativity, the Lorentz contractions, shorter meters, are associated with slower time, which seems paradoxical, but it is not. It is just that the differences in rates of time are so small, the effect is too small to matter relative to the size of the Lorentz contractions.
Being spiritual and believing in a spiritual "Cause of Causes", I believe spacetime is the result of being aware of oneself existing "here", space, and "now" which is time. The passage of time forces space to evolve forward and is the primary force of the universe. The relative lengths of meters expand and contract with random fluctuations in the rate of time allowed by HUP. 
Considering Einstein's fundamental metric to represent a null gravitational field being evolved forward at a constant rate, or constant rate of acceleration, the random fluctuations in time create dilation gradients, i.e., gravitational fields within the spacetime (quantum) continuum, that result in the dynamics of General Relativity. I have been considering that perhaps the apparent dimensionality of time in a dilation gradient creates the impression of depth in space.
Though space expands and contracts with changes in the rate of time, it is not possible to create more space. You would also have to create more time as the two are just different aspects of the same thing. This is one of the big flaws in how the expanding universe is being conceptualized. If more space is being manifested, how is the "more" time being manifested? 

[guest45734]

Spacetime has two aspects, space and time. One does not exist independently of the other and the two aspects must maintain a proportionality to maintain c. The length of a meter must shorten when the rate of time increases to maintain c. Likewise, it must get longer when time slows. In Relativity, the Lorentz contractions, shorter meters, are associated with slower time, which seems paradoxical, but it is not. It is just that the differences in rates of time are so small, the effect is too small to matter relative to the size of the Lorentz contractions.
Being spiritual and believing in a spiritual "Cause of Causes", I believe spacetime is the result of being aware of oneself existing "here", space, and "now" which is time. The passage of time forces space to evolve forward and is the primary force of the universe. The relative lengths of meters expand and contract with random fluctuations in the rate of time allowed by HUP. 
Considering Einstein's fundamental metric to represent a null gravitational field being evolved forward at a constant rate, or constant rate of acceleration, the random fluctuations in time create dilation gradients, i.e., gravitational fields within the spacetime (quantum) continuum, that result in the dynamics of General Relativity. I have been considering that perhaps the apparent dimensionality of time in a dilation gradient creates the impression of depth in space.
Though space expands and contracts with changes in the rate of time, it is not possible to create more space. You would also have to create more time as the two are just different aspects of the same thing. This is one of the big flaws in how the expanding universe is being conceptualized. If more space is being manifested, how is the "more" time being manifested?

I just noticed your post.

How could I weave your Spiritual cause and causes into a discussion on what space is.

This is the new theories forum and I am bored.
 
Playing with a couple of ideas from relativity, QFT, and twisting them a bit.

All things are connected to a certain extent via the wave function. This is demonstrated via entanglement, spooky action at a distance and wave particle duality double slit experiment, and possibly a few other instances as well. 

The wave function from QFT and the photon using Lorentz transformation do not experience time or space, until something interacts with them and the field collapses. This is akin to an additional dimension which does not experience space or time connecting all points in space and time.

In the beginning there was no time and no space, on fields which created quantum fluctuations/foam in space time which caused the expansion of space time (dark energy). These quantum fluctuations occasionally interact gaining enough energy to become a fundamental particles. These fundamental particles then accumalate into huge clouds of gas nebulae which form into stars which eventually burn out and collapse causing a super novae creating the heavy elements which form into planets etc. Some of these suns form into black holes on collapsing and compress the matter in them until the matter becomes so hot it breaks down into radiation, which then is released as a Big Bang creating more elements. 

All of the elements and particles ever created are still connected by the field and can become entangled and then act as one particle until they decohere.

Spiritually could people be aware of the additional field dimension and be connected.

See I said I was bored Is this complete crap, partial crap, good crap, just crap etc.

[captcass]

How could I weave your Spiritual cause and causes into a discussion on what space is.

Consider Einstein’s Fundamental Metric, which can be considered the basis of the tensors describing a null gravitational field::
   X   Y   Z   T
X   -1   0   0   0
Y   0   -1   0   0
Z   0   0   -1   0
T   0   0   0   +1
A particle moves in a straight line in this Fundamental Metric, where there is no time dilation; where the time-time element g44 = +1, which is an invariant 1 s/s rate in all frames, the same rate we each experience in our inertial frame as we evolve along our worldline. Though a useful tool in GR, Einstein admits this metric most likely cannot exist in finite space. If it did, there would just be a single, infinitesimal, particle, and it would have a zero velocity, regardless of the X, Y, Z components of the metric, as there would be nothing to relate its motion to. Space would appear flat and have no dimensions as there would be nothing else to relate distance to. He considers this situation to be in vacuo. In saying this state probably cannot exist in a finite region, he is confirming my conjecture that the spacetime continuum is energetic. It cannot be otherwise. The spacetime continuum is the quantum continuum.
Because no motion would be apparent in the Fundamental Metric, it can be reduced to just the time-time element, g44, which is simply TT = 1. An observer existing in this state would only be aware of time passing. The observer’s space would be evolving forward with time, but that would be undetectable. I call this the IATIA state: “I Am That I Am”. This will raise some objections, but it must be noted that our reality is an illusion being manifested out of superposition waveforms that only take on forms that are dependent on an observer being present. Again, as per Einstein, “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”.
The IATIA state is a horrible state of being. The worst thing we do to people is to put them in solitary confinement.
Fortunately, it can imagine light and manipulate the light to create worlds that it can incarnate itself into, “losing” itself to escape its eternal loneliness and pass its eternity. All life forms are just different points of view, different perspectives for that single awareness. Hence, we are all one in it and we are all its children and, hence, in faith we have divine power and miracles occur..
The fact that we are all one in it explains non-locality. Alice and Bob are each the center of their own universe, their own local reality, as per relativity, but those universes are just different points of view for the One harmonizing all of those universes and Alice and Bob are one in that One.
Instead of a quantum foam, I see random fluctuations in time that create dilation gradients, and their associated relative densities in space, and the dynamics of General Relativity. By this I mean the dilation gradients result in the dynamics in time that manifest the apparent evolution of events as described by General Relativity.

[guest45734]

Though a useful tool in GR, Einstein admits this metric most likely cannot exist in finite space. If it did, there would just be a single, infinitesimal, particle, and it would have a zero velocity, regardless of the X, Y, Z components of the metric, as there would be nothing to relate its motion to. Space would appear flat and have no dimensions as there would be nothing else to relate distance to

OK
Still your mind, have a Zen moment.
Think of non locality and the field, be calm, close your eyes.

Zooming in to a time before anything ever existed, space does not exist in the form we understand it, its dimensions are undefined, time is meaningless, lets call this the field dimension. Energy can not be created or destroyed, therefore the energy in the field dimension is the source of the original quantum fluctuations causing the expansion of space(and quite possibly it is infinite). Something happened to cause quantum fluctuations from the field dimension to cause the expansion of space time as we know it, maybe it radiated enough energy to cause a big bang, or perhaps it happened more slowly, various theories are extant already to drive people insane.  Today space time exists along side the original undefined field dimension, this field dimension allows all points in space to be connected to a certain extant, it explains non locality, wave particle duality, and who knows remote viewing, which is currently being talked about on another science forum. Bearing this in mind, and the level of some of the posts on science forums, please do not take what I have written here too seriously. However I do not think I am a million miles from the truth, by describing a field dimension as being dimensionless, which connects all points in space time.

[puppypower]

One of the problems in discussions of space, is there is a tendency to use the earth reference as the universal ground state and define it from there. This is an old tradition.

If we traveled at the speed of light, the universe would appear contracted to a point-instant. As such, space would not appear to exist. There would be nothing to discuss. Since the speed of light is the same in all references, that is the gold standard in terms of a universal reference. Space does not exist in the universal ground state reference of C. It only exists in the silver and bronze level inertial references.This tells us that space is a reference artifact.

[guest45734]

As such, space would not appear to exist. There would be nothing to discuss

Before any big bang or unfolding of space time, space and time did not exist. But the laws of physics must still apply, energy can not be created or destroyed. How interesting is that, it is well worth a discussion. You partly cover what I have alluded to in your next statement

Since the speed of light is the same in all references, that is the gold standard in terms of a universal reference. Space does not exist in the universal ground state reference of C. It only exists in the silver and bronze level inertial references.

I would argue space time is a bolt on to the original field dimension rather than an artifact

This tells us that space is a reference artifact

If we try for amusement 5 dimensions one where space and time are irrelevant and are occupied only by fields connecting all points in space in time then the rest is history with space and time which we are familiar with.

If the field dimension is assumed to connect all other points in space time, it allows for non local actions. In addition to this the field dimension which caused the first big bang maybe, still exists and is the reason for the Heisenburg uncertainty principle, which predicts the production of quantum fluctuations. Zero point energy is the lowest energy any QM system can have. etc etc la la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

[guest39538]

Before any big bang or unfolding of space time, space and time did not exist.

Space did not exist , really ?

So please tell me all about how the big bang was created from the centre of a solid ? 


If space did not exist it was occupied by a solid.    A point has a surrounding  or you can't have a point.

[guest39538]

Consider Einstein’s Fundamental Metric, which can be considered the basis of the tensors describing a null gravitational field::
   X   Y   Z   T
X   -1   0   0   0
Y   0   -1   0   0
Z   0   0   -1   0
T   0   0   0   +1

Thank you for sharing that, I never knew that is all the stress tensors was , that's easy enough to follow thanks.

[captcass]

I never knew that is all the stress tensors was ,

Sorry, this is not the stress tensor. There are 2 tensors in the field equations, Einstein's tensor and the stress-energy-momentum tensor. Einstein's tensor only contains spacetime elements, i.e., x,y,z and t, and is the actual description of the evolution of events that "describe" the "effects" of gravity. In his 1915 paper he notes that the theory of relativity does not require the stress-energy tensor. He adds it because our science requires a conservation of energy and the Einstein tensor contains no energy elements. So he came up with his constant, 8πG/c⁴, and then scaled that using the same time elements he uses in the Einstein tensor, T⁰⁰,. In other words, Einstein's tensor describing gravity does not require the stress-energy tensor and the stress-energy tensor is meaningless without the corresponding Einstein tensor. This is why I do not even consider any energy components in my paper, only relativistic effects in time. Einstein calls the time elements his "energy components". It is all driven by apparent differences in rates of time. The fundamental force of the universe is the passage of time, as it forces all space to evolve forward, and when dilation gradients are introduced we also see the apparent evolution of events down the gradient, the gravitational direction of evolution. Although relativistic, it is an irresistible force in time just like the fundamental direction of evolution. This is why gravity only has one direction and why it overpowers all the other forces, even though it seems so weak.     

[guest39538]

I never knew that is all the stress tensors was ,

Sorry, this is not the stress tensor. There are 2 tensors in the field equations, Einstein's tensor and the stress-energy-momentum tensor. Einstein's tensor only contains spacetime elements, i.e., x,y,z and t, and is the actual description of the evolution of events that "describe" the "effects" of gravity. In his 1915 paper he notes that the theory of relativity does not require the stress-energy tensor. He adds it because our science requires a conservation of energy and the Einstein tensor contains no energy elements. So he came up with his constant, 8πG/c⁴, and then scaled that using the same time elements he uses in the Einstein tensor, T⁰⁰,. In other words, Einstein's tensor describing gravity does not require the stress-energy tensor and the stress-energy tensor is meaningless without the corresponding Einstein tensor. This is why I do not even consider any energy components in my paper, only relativistic effects in time. Einstein calls the time elements his "energy components". It is all driven by apparent differences in rates of time. The fundamental force of the universe is the passage of time, as it forces all space to evolve forward, and when dilation gradients are introduced we also see the apparent evolution of events down the gradient, the gravitational direction of evolution. Although relativistic, it is an irresistible force in time just like the fundamental direction of evolution. This is why gravity only has one direction and why it overpowers all the other forces, even though it seems so weak.     

Thanks for the explanation, I see in pictures, I got all the information I needed from your picture.  Thanks again , I will step out this thread not to spoil it.

[guest45734]

This is why I do not even consider any energy components in my paper, only relativistic effects in time.

Have you posted your paper?

[jeffreyH]

Just reading the paper mentioned, will reply when fin.

If you want to discuss/develop a SIMPLIFIED theory of everything based on what space is we could start by Applying the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid)
Viewing the expansion and contraction of space (dark energy and gravity) to be driven by quantum fluctuations, which are due to wave functions which exist on the membrane of space, similar to string theory. We can start a build a theory of everything with space as the substance which everything comes out of. Could everything in the universe be put down to electromagnetic waves.

The idea of quantum fluctuations being connected to both inertia and the expansion of the universe is another way of looking at things. With the vacuum containing negative energy which is preventing more particles from coming into existence. In my view inertia requires a condensate in which to operate. Any action causes an imbalance in the condensate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_sea

[puppypower]

And the NIST paper: “Quantum mechanics at its heart is a statistical theory. It cannot with certainty predict the outcome of all single events, but instead it predicts probabilities of outcomes. This probabilistic nature of quantum theory is at odds with the determinism inherent in Newtonian physics and relativity, where outcomes can be exactly predicted given sufficient knowledge of a system.”

Statistics is a simplification method and not a statement of fact. For example, say you had a complex system that only a few people in the world could break down into all its steps and infer deterministic results. The average person may not be able to do this, but they could still work on this project, by assuming it is a statistical system. It is a way to simplify the complex and still get good results.

Dice and cards, which are often used to help explain odds, are man made things. In other words, try to explain probability to a new person, without using any man made things like cards to dice. We can point to variations in natural things, but this is small compared to what natural things have in common; there is a higher percent of deterministic.

Dice obey statistics,because the six sides are equally weighed in terms of natural potentials; mass, charge, energy, etc., The difference has to do with superficial print patterns, which are a manmade and subjective elements. They are  not a source of natural potential beyond the imaginations of humans.

Take a deck of cards and erase all the faces. Now every deal in this version of poker will be five of kind. What happened to the probability, when the manmade is gone? The only thing that has changed are the subjectivity pattern that weigh nothing in terms of the draw. None of the physical parameters have changed. It is an illusion that fools the best of them. Don't get me wrong, this is a useful tool, but a tool does not build the house by itself.

Let me give you a good practical example, in science. In Biology and Biochemistry, it has been known for 50 years or more that proteins fold with exact folds. When a protein is synthesized in the cell, it starts to pack and fold all the way to a final shape. Similar chemical composition proteins always fold the exact same way; perfect copies in 3-D space.

For several decades before this observation, and for many decades after this experimental observation, to the present, biology still assumes a statistical explanation for this deterministic event, where the probability equals 1.0. The statistical dogma is placed before common sense. It is still assumed and taught that thermal vibrations in the water, will cause random events, which result in average folds. This is not even real, in terms of experiment, but is still the convention in terms of explanation. This is true in all of science. This example was the easiest to see.

What it comes down to, is not many people can see the logic behind this deterministic protein observation. On the other hand thousands of workers can get you close to this result, if we accept statistics as a dogma of science. It may be a union thing. The bias of a random universe assumption, prevents reality from being explained almost to the point of censorship.

Dr. John Grant Patterson. 

One is reminded here of the problem of protein folding. As I have pointed out elsewhere (Watterson, 1997), that problem also arises from applying classical theories, since they predict an average, not a unique fold. That these questions remain unsolved still today after 50 years of intense research effort, highlights a two-fold failing of statistical methods: firstly, they did not predict the existence of a stable folded state, and secondly, once given as an experimental fact, they cannot explain it.

This divergence may seem to be off the topic of space, but until the statistical magic trick is seem through, it is hard to advance in a logical way. Everyone is expecting a jackpot in the science casino by pulling a lever.

[guest45734]

With the vacuum containing negative energy which is preventing more particles from coming into existence. In my view inertia requires a condensate in which to operate. Any action causes an imbalance in the condensate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_sea

The Dirac sea refers to particles, these particles are virtual particles ie not real but are the result of the underlying field. Viewing the vacuum field as a reflection of the quantum fluctuations appearing in space time as a result of the HUP.

I tend to have an idea whereby there is a dimension connecting all points in space time, partly as a result non locality and entanglement. Overlaying this idea over the vacuum will keep me interested for a while.

[captcass]

Have you posted your paper?

Sorry, yes. I thought I was in the Hubble Shift thread where I have a link. Here it is: http://vixra.org/abs/1804.0109 .