[Bogie_smiles]

Yes the snowman is suppose to represent a clock  and my point was the snowman will melt faster with the greater heat.   So when my snowman approaches your big crunch , dilemma. The snowman's time obviously speeds up not slows down. Where in the opposite situation if the snowman was to travel away from the big crunch where the fields ''thin'' out , there would be less heat so the snowman's time slows down . 
Sort of as the enphalpy ''thins'' out proportional to the inverse , time slows down . 

I sounds like you are agreeing with me, saying why the analogy doesn’t work.

Can you please explain why you think , for what reason time would be at its slowest rate nearer to a big crunch ?

In the ISU, matter is composed of gravitational wave energy. As the density of the gravitational waves in the same volume of matter increases, the wave energy density of the matter increases. A clock sitting there as the energy density of the matter increases would slow down. To play out that scenario to the max, as the wave energy density reaches that of a blackhole, the clock will slow down to almost a stop.

[guest39538]

I sounds like you are agreeing with me, saying why the analogy doesn’t work.

I was saying the analogy does work. 

To play out that scenario to the max, as the wave energy density reaches that of a blackhole, the clock will slow down to almost a stop.

I am still failing to see how that could possibly work.  Do you have any sort of evidence to suggest this ?

Any sort of proofs? 


It doesn't seem to make sense and I have thought of a better reason than the snowman.   

Two identical Caesium clocks, one on earth, the second one on a much denser mass than the earth.

 On the denser mass planet, from my understanding of time dilation, the clock would tick faster than the earth clock ?

So if a Caesium clock was placed on the formed 'surface' of a big crunch , unassumingly the clock would tick faster than the earth clock ?

Edit finished...

[Bogie_smiles]

I am still failing to see how that could possibly work.  Do you have any sort of evidence to suggest this ?


Any sort of proofs? 




It doesn't seem to make sense and I have thought of a better reason than the snowman.   

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/177/4044/166 Predicted




Abstract
During October 1971, four cesium beam atomic clocks were flown on regularly scheduled commercial jet flights around the world twice, once eastward and once westward, to test Einstein's theory of relativity with macroscopic clocks. From the actual flight paths of each trip, the theory predicts that the flying clocks, compared with reference clocks at the U.S. Naval Observatory, should have lost 40 ± 23 nanoseconds during the eastward trip, and should have gained 275 ± 21 nanoseconds during the westward trip. The observed time differences are presented in the report that follows this one.




http://science.sciencemag.org/content/177/4044/168 Observed




Abstract
Four cesium beam clocks flown around the world on commercial jet flights during October 1971, once eastward and once westward, recorded directionally dependent time differences which are in good agreement with predictions of conventional relativity theory. Relative to the atomic time scale of the U.S. Naval Observatory, the flying clocks lost 59 ± 10 nanoseconds during the eastward trip and gained 273 ± 7 nanoseconds during the westward trip, where the errors are the corresponding standard deviations. These results provide an unambiguous empirical resolution of the famous clock "paradox" with macroscopic clocks.




Her is a Wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment

 


Two identical Caesium clocks, one on earth, the second one on a much denser mass than the earth.


 On the denser mass planet, from my understanding of time dilation, the clock would tick faster than the earth clock ?


So if a Caesium clock was placed on the formed 'surface' of a big crunch , unassumingly the clock would tick faster than the earth clock ?

It appears that you have the concept of time dilation backwards; try to think it through again, and let me know if you see it differently.

[guest39538]

It appears that you have the concept of time dilation backwards; try to think it through again, and let me know if you see it differently.

This may sound weird but I think I have ''jumped'' dimensions again .   Apparently I did  say it backwards in regards to gravitational time dilation and time apparently runs at its faster rate the further away from a mass.

Gravitational time dilation is a form of time dilation, an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers situated at varying distances from a gravitating mass. The higher the gravitational potential (the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation), the faster time passes. Albert Einstein originally predicted this effect in his theory of relativity and it has since been confirmed by tests of general relativity.[1]

However the Hafele–Keating experiment,  which I thought was evidence of this, is not evidence of this .  It is evidence of a directional affect of time dilation, West and East direction being the variable. Quite obviously the Earths rotation is relational to this.
In reality though I can demonstrate there is no time dilation of actual time and show Einstein is wrong on the matter.  The variation of the caesium frequency is a timing dilation not a time dilation, a fine line between fact and fiction.

Edit finished.

[Bogie_smiles]

However the Hafele–Keating experiment,  which I thought was evidence of this, is not evidence of this .  It is evidence of a directional affect of time dilation, West and East direction being the variable. Quite obviously the Earths rotation is relational to this.
In reality though I can show no time dilation of actual time and show Einstein is wrong on the matter.  The variation of the caesium frequency is a timing dilation not a time dilation, a fine line between fact and fiction.

The cause and effect in Hafele-Keating still includes gravitational time dilation, not just an acceleration difference between the relative motion of the various clocks, if I understand it correctly. The gravitational effect though is not just the Earth effect, but the Sun's effect too. Think of it this way: When you are flying East, you are heading into the rising sun (deeper into the gravitational potential of the Sun), and the Suns mass plays a bigger role in slowing the clock than when you are flying West away from the rising sun's gravitational potential.

[guest39538]

The cause and effect in Hafele-Keating still includes gravitational time dilation, not just an acceleration difference between the relative motion of the various clocks, if I understand it correctly. The gravitational effect though is not just the Earth effect, but the Sun's effect too. Think of it this way: When you are flying East, you are heading into the rising sun (deeper into the gravitational potential of the Sun), and the Suns mass plays a bigger role in slowing the clock than when you are flying West away from the rising sun's gravitational potential.

When the plane is travelling east, the earth is spinning away from the plane, when the plane is travelling west, the earth is spinning towards the plane.  A circular length expansion and contraction and relative velocity,  that nobody discusses.

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[Bogie_smiles]

When the plane is travelling east, the earth is spinning away from the plane, when the plane is travelling west, the earth is spinning towards the plane.  A circular length expansion and contraction and relative velocity,  that nobody discusses.

edit finished

I know. However, I think the consistency of the measurements, which are in line with predictions, are evidence that the applicable effects are taken into consideration, and are understood, though maybe not highlighted.

[guest39538]

When the plane is travelling east, the earth is spinning away from the plane, when the plane is travelling west, the earth is spinning towards the plane.  A circular length expansion and contraction and relative velocity,  that nobody discusses.

edit finished

I know. However, I think the consistency of the measurements, which are in line with predictions, are evidence that the applicable effects are taken into consideration, and are understood, though maybe not highlighted.

Indeed time dilation is a very important piece of science to align GPS etc.   It is not difficult to understand , but I do have to say unless science changes the name to a timing dilation, it will keep confusing people trying to learn the subject. 
I am sorry I should of said, when I discuss time dilation I am discussing a real time dilation where time can change in many ways . i.e my snowman example.   I forget sometimes that science have their own version

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[Bogie_smiles]

Indeed time dilation is a very important piece of science to align GPS etc.   It is not difficult to understand , but I do have to say unless science changes the name to a timing dilation, it will keep confusing people trying to learn the subject.

A rose by any other name would smell the same.

I am sorry I should of said, when I discuss time dilation I am discussing a real time dilation where time can change in many ways . i.e my snowman example.   I forget sometimes that science have their own version

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I know. Sometimes we just have to sit out in the cold to appreciated the warmth.

Old business: The red car analogy. You are really asking, where does matter come from in each new big bang arena in my model.

I say that the wave energy that matter is composed of cannot be created or destroyed, but any object composed of matter (wave-particles) can be forced back into its wave energy state by being captured in a big crunch. In any crunch/collapse/bang, matter is negated to wave energy, and entropy is defeated.



That is the way it is in the ISU model; a potentially infinite number of currently active big bang arenas, all expanding until their expansion is interrupted by intersecting and overlapping with adjacent expanding arenas. When they intersect and overlap, the big crunch forms. When the big crunches reach critical capacity, they collapse/bang and each big bang sets off the expansion of a new big bang arena. Expansion results in cooling and particle formation. Particle formation leads to clumping of particles into stars and then galactic structure. Earth-like planets invariably arise out of the star dust, and life forms are generated that have sound intelligence, ... and they make red cars. All arenas have their own style of red car, in the ISU, lol.

[guest39538]

I say that the wave energy that matter is composed of cannot be created or destroyed, but any object composed of matter (wave-particles) can be forced back into its wave energy state by being captured in a big crunch. In any crunch/collapse/bang, matter is negated to wave energy, and entropy is defeated.

Why do you think energy cannot be created or destroyed? 

In the beginning there was nothing, so the energy must of  been created in the origin of the universe. 

As for destroyed, would dispersing to zero dimensions not be considered destroyed?

I assume you agree that wave particles are the binary of (-e)  +  (+1e)?

Now if we was to split the binary

= A + B

Then consider A or B individually

/n = 0

This assumed on, that if a volume of energy points was all the same charge sign , the points would expand by the repulsive force, in affect popping out of existence by dispersion.

Do you have anymore reasoning why energy cannot be created or destroyed other than mainstream thinking?

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[Bogie_smiles]

Why do you think there was nothing? Don't answer that, it is a rhetorical question posted when there is nothing else say, :shrug:

[Colin2B]

When the plane is travelling east, the earth is spinning away from the plane, when the plane is travelling west, the earth is spinning towards the plane.  A circular length expansion and contraction and relative velocity,  that nobody discusses.

Yes they do discuss it, you just have to speak to the right people. I did the calculations once, you have to be clear about your reference frame. It has nothing to do with flying towards the sun.

[Bogie_smiles]

When the plane is travelling east, the earth is spinning away from the plane, when the plane is travelling west, the earth is spinning towards the plane.  A circular length expansion and contraction and relative velocity,  that nobody discusses.

Yes they do discuss it, you just have to speak to the right people. I did the calculations once, you have to be clear about your reference frame. It has nothing to do with flying towards the sun.

I stand corrected.

[guest39538]

Yes they do discuss it, you just have to speak to the right people. I did the calculations once, you have to be clear about your reference frame. It has nothing to do with flying towards the sun.

I assume and use the Earth as the reference frame?

[Colin2B]

I assume and use the Earth as the reference frame?

You assume correctly. However, you have to recognise that the aircraft and ground station can’t be considered inertial relative to each other so you have to make both relative to earth centre and assume the earth rotates which is why you get an east-west difference. Gravitational time dilation is easier as you just have to work out the difference in gravitational potential, to simplify you can assume a constant altitude for the plane if it reaches cruising height quickly (compared to length of flight).

[Bogie_smiles]

Continuing on these thoughts:

I really love your ideas, at times I think we are saying the same thing but slightly differently.  I can agree in a sense about your always existed version, if you can accept that always existed relates to popping in and out of existence,

01010101010101010101010100101010→∞

Is this what you mean ?

i think you are saying the cycle/process is immortal?

Yes, the big bang arena process of Arena Action is perpetual.


As for the 01010101 to infinity, you need to make that an infinite series in three dimensions, to represent the big bang arena landscape of the greater universe.

The other day we were talking about the multiple big bang arenas across the landscape of the greater universe that I depicted in the image that was supposed to be a large scale patch of big bangs and arena action similar to what would be seen anywhere across the greater universal landscape. You picked up on it and mentioned A/A Dispersal with an image of starburst types of figures intersecting, and we discussed the 010101010… and 0t0t0t0t0 infinite series’ of the 3D lattice.

That thinking leads to thoughts about the structure of that big bang arena landscape. Considering it in the light of a few ISU characteristics, like the process of Arena Action, the sameness doctrine, and the standard critical capacity limit that each big crunch must reach to produce a big bang arena wave, leads to some speculative physics that could be applied to scope out the structure. The idea of a lattice structure comes to mind.

The proximity of the structure of arenas across the landscape depends on the average gravitational wave energy density across the entire universe; sort of a twist on the cosmological constant and the vacuum energy density values that are applied to describe some of the models theorized by real members of the scientific community. I have proposed that the ISU has the structure of a lattice, as in the nodes of a crystalline structure, and if so, then the three dimensional structure, 01010101 infinite series on three axes could easily apply.

Each intersection on the 3-D matrix represents the convergence of adjacent parent big bang arenas that expand into each other’s space. If we say that the 0s are the expanding arenas, and the 1s are the big crunches that form in each overlap space, we could be describing the structure of the greater universe as the process of arena action plays out.

We discussed the effect of that process in regard to the variable rate that time passes in different gravitational fields, or as I phrase it, the different gravitational wave energy density profiles in space associated with the process of arena action. That means that each 010 sequence has a time line that varies from “convergence” to “bang” in regard to energy density as the arena action process plays out (that is why I have Spongy in the Infinite Spongy Universe name).  Clocks would measure the passing of time at different rates depending on where they were located within the local energy density profile, and throughout the sequence of events on three axes.

As I attempt to visualize that action, I am thinking that the landscape of the greater universe would have an interesting complex pattern of oscillations between crunches, and expanding big bang arena waves, with crunches and expanding arenas existing in various stages within the complex repeating process. Can you picture it?

[guest39538]

The proximity of the structure of arenas across the landscape depends on the average gravitational wave energy density across the entire universe; sort of a twist on the cosmological constant and the vacuum energy density values that are applied to describe some of the models theorized by real members of the scientific community. I have proposed that the ISU has the structure of a lattice, as in the nodes of a crystalline structure, and if so, then the three dimensional structure, 01010101 infinite series on three axes could easily apply.

010101010 infinitely was specific to meaning, popping into and out of existence.  My diagram was to show the dispersion of point energy , where the point energy manifestation of a mono-pole static charge , disperses in a sort of ''split'' pattern. 

To explain , imagine a very small mono-pole  sphere that manifested itself at any given point of space.  The sphere will be in an automatic state of expansion from the manifestation given point. So let us expand this sphere slightly, now the ''points'' of the sphere have empty point space between the ''points''.  The expanded ''points'' now also expand to fill the empty space . But of course the whole is still expanding so again as it expands there is empty point space between the ''points'' that the new expanded ''points'' expand and fill.
I understand your lattice thought and that could be a possibility if considering a finite view.

I will respond later on,  furthermore , I have a bit of a ''dull head'' on today at the moment.  More coffee required 

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[Bogie_smiles]

I will respond later on,  furthermore , I have a bit of a ''dull head'' on today at the moment.  More coffee required 

end edit.

I say this because I want you to apply your best thinking to this. Take your time, get a clear head (don't do any drugs, not even any prescriptions unless necessary for survival, lol, don't smoke or drink, exercise regularly).

[guest39538]

I assume and use the Earth as the reference frame?

You assume correctly. However, you have to recognise that the aircraft and ground station can’t be considered inertial relative to each other so you have to make both relative to earth centre and assume the earth rotates which is why you get an east-west difference. Gravitational time dilation is easier as you just have to work out the difference in gravitational potential, to simplify you can assume a constant altitude for the plane if it reaches cruising height quickly (compared to length of flight).

I forgot to post this diagram,


rel.jpg (23.05 kB . 535x503 - viewed 3391 times)

Oh I see now, Time dilation is doppler ,

[guest39538]

Can you picture it?

space-time.jpg (391.36 kB . 1072x652 - viewed 3332 times)