[Bill S (OP)]

Is it just me; or does anyone else see a problem with the idea of time emerging from a situation in which it didn’t previously exist?

[Kryptid]

That's because "before time" is an oxymoron.

[jeffreyH]

I don't see a problem at all. You can't touch, taste or smell time. It is not a physical thing but a way of measuring physical changes.

[Bill S (OP)]

That's because "before time" is an oxymoron.

Obviously there can be no time before time.  This would tend to support the idea that time cannot “emerge”, because the act of emerging would require time.

I don't see a problem at all. You can't touch, taste or smell time. It is not a physical thing but a way of measuring physical changes.

We seem to be converging on the idea that time is just a tool we use for measuring

[yor_on]

Outcomes define us
They need time

Without a BB there is nothing defining anyrthing

[yor_on]

There is (possibly:) two ways of 'existing'
One doesn't need 'time'

The other one does
Which one would you choose?

[guest45734]

Is it just me; or does anyone else see a problem with the idea of time emerging from a situation in which it didn’t previously exist?

Time is a measure of change, when nothing existed, nothing changed, until the BB so there was no time. Other views are the BB started from a big crunch and the universe is cyclical. The BB theory might not be 100% correct, and space time originated from a White hole via an ER Bridge from a BH, which is driving the expansion of space time in our universe in the present. The rate of passing of time is dependent on gravitational potential, or the stretching of space, in a BH space time breaks down and time stops, in a White hole it does not.

[geordief]

when nothing existed, nothing changed, until the BB so there was no time.......

That is a  (sackful of) logical oxymorons. We can't understand anything without getting our logical ducks in a row.

 I agree with others that "time emerging" doesn't work as an idea and would say that the onus is on anyone who feels it might so work to come up at least with a thought experiment showing two states ,one without time ( however defined) and the other with time (defined the same way)  that would allow us to examine any possible transition between the two states (emergence).

Not holding my breath....

[guest45734]

That is a  (sackful of) logical oxymorons.

An oxymoron is a rhetorical device that uses an ostensible self-contradiction to illustrate a rhetorical point or to reveal a paradox. I think I did this successfully in my post above, t = 0 is not obvious. But like you wrote what I wrote could be a sackful even though it is based on partially contradictory theories. When the ducks do not line up willingly, try slicing them up, with occams razor

[geordief]

An oxymoron is a rhetorical device that uses an ostensible self-contradiction to illustrate a rhetorical point or to reveal a paradox.

Hey that is just lifted from Wikepedia    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron
and so seemingly a  niche  meaning or usage

I was just using (hopefully) its main meaning as shown here

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oxymoron

": a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (such as cruel kindness); broadly : something (such as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements"

[Bill S (OP)]

Time is a measure of change, when nothing existed, nothing changed, until the BB so there was no time.

Let's see if I'm following your logic.

Before the BB, there was nothing.  There was, therefore, no change and no time.  Is that right?

[guest45734]

Let's see if I'm following your logic.

Before the BB, there was nothing.  There was, therefore, no change and no time.  Is that right?

A bit over simplified, but as one of many options yes. Time slows due to gravitational potential and may not tick at all inside a Black hole. What is outside of the BB expansion of space time. Nothing no space and no time either.

I presented a sackful of theories as geordiedef pointed out, you have opted for the first part of the paragraph I posted.

Looking at the first idea you latched onto. Space time today is expanding due to dark energy. Time slows due to gravity, in black holes, some folk reckon it stops relatively speaking.

EFE equations indicate that a White hole may drive the expansion of space via  a ER Bridge. Others indicate that dark energy and the expansion of space time is due to quantum fluctuations. If the expansion of space and quantum fluctuations/zero point energy is due to a White hole then as the white hole expands so does time and space. At the simplest level the universe may have evolved from a black hole connected via an ER Bridge to a White hole.
 

[Bill S (OP)]

A bit over simplified, but as one of many options yes.

If we keep things simple, I have a chance of understanding them.

The rest of your post illustrates elegantly why I was trying to clarify one point, before moving on to the next. 

Perhaps I could simplify things a bit more?

Are you saying there was nothing before the BB? 

I'm not looking for what might be the views of others, or the consensus of scientific opinion.  What I would like to clarify is the absolutely basic foundation of your reasoning.

[jeffreyH]

Wheeler deWitt and the emergence of time.
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/quantum-experiment-shows-how-time-emerges-from-entanglement-d5d3dc850933
An interesting read and not that long.

[guest45734]

What I would like to clarify is the absolutely basic foundation of your reasoning.

I am undecided as are many and that is why I am asking questions. However my reasoning is that the first Big Bang MAY have originated from a Massless black hole, originating from a zero energy universe, whereby gravity represents -ve energy and dark energy/mass represent +ve energy and cancel out.

The following is speculation, but to answer your question. I take the view that space is not just space time, there are other dimensions, one of which connects all points in our flatland view of space to all other points. I am currently taking the view that the output of this dimension is driven by a White hole and ER bridge.
 
Speculating about the concept of a massless Black hole, I make some assumptions about how gravity and dark energy would appear in space. If the curvature of space is caused by the absorption of quantum fluctuations and space by mass and the expansion of space is caused by the appearance of dark energy (quantum fluctuations) in open space from the above ER bridge/extra dimension. Inside a standard black hole where gravity tends towards the insane and space time breaks down, quantum fluctuations may be absorbed completely and space time would not exist. A massless BH before any BB might also have zero quantum fluctuations and represent an infinite source of -ve gravitational energy, and as a result because of the nature of space naturally result in a BB feeding energy via an ER bridge into space time resulting in the BB. The ER bridge operates like a one way valve to space time expanding space time via dark energy which may be currently manifesting itself as quantum fluctuations.

I am thinking that all things emerged from space because of the nature of space time, and at least one additional dimension, which resulted in the original BB, because there was no alternative.

[jeffreyH]

@disinterested I thought you'd appreciate that one.

[Bill S (OP)]

Thanks for that link, Jeffrey.  I'd lost it and am pleased to be able to have another read.

[Bill S (OP)]

I am thinking that all things emerged from space because of the nature of space time, and at least one additional dimension, which resulted in the original BB, because there was no alternative.

So, there were a few things before the BB? 

Space and at least one additional dimension.  If it was an additional dimension, there must have been something to which it was "additional".

So, have we reached a point where you are saying there was something before the BB?

[jeffreyH]

If you want to take this further then it might be instructive to browse the following article. Where ER=EPR.
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/new-einstein-equation-wormholes-quantum-gravity

[Bill S (OP)]

Thanks.  At a quick glance; looks good.  I'll probably have some comments/questions when I've read it properly.  Could even provide some support for Bohm's ideas.