[Yahya (OP)]

Is this a great invention like the dynamo or electrical motor ?
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.0
being a basic machine , perhaps it should be invented in the 19th or 20th century.
and why not it was invented by da Vinci? da Vinci invented clockwork car with limited energy storage, but this could travel , using a spring for longer distances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo%27s_self-propelled_cart

[Kryptid]

I don't see anything revolutionary about it, so I'm going to have to say no.

[Yahya (OP)]

I don't see anything revolutionary about it.

it  stores energy using mechanical concepts in large amounts that lithium-ion batteries won't store. Being a solution for climate change problem alone makes it revolutionary:
reply#48 https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg545195#msg545195

[Kryptid]

I don't see anything revolutionary about it.

it  stores energy using mechanical concepts in large amounts that lithium-ion batteries won't store. Being a solution for climate change problem alone makes it revolutionary:
reply#48 https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg545195#msg545195

Do you have some math to support this claim? Are you basing this on energy per unit mass, energy per unit volume, energy per dollar or what?

[Yahya (OP)]

I don't see anything revolutionary about it.

it  stores energy using mechanical concepts in large amounts that lithium-ion batteries won't store. Being a solution for climate change problem alone makes it revolutionary:
reply#48 https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg545195#msg545195

Do you have some math to support this claim? Are you basing this on energy per unit mass, energy per unit volume, energy per dollar or what?

all calculations are on the thread https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.0

[Bored chemist]

it  stores energy using mechanical concepts in large amounts that lithium-ion batteries won't store.

Please provide figures- preferably for a realistic system that doesn't involve drilling holes a million times bigger than anyone has ever drilled before or anything silly like that.

Lithium ion batteries store something of the order of 200 watt hours per kilogram.
About 700 KJ/Kg

To get that energy storage density by raising a weight against gravity you need to lift it 70km.
That's pretty much lifting it into space.

Please stop wasting time on this daft idea.
There really are better ways of storing energy than lifting weights.

[Bored chemist]

why not it was invented by da Vinci?

Because Da Vinci had more sense than you have.

[Yahya (OP)]

Lithium ion batteries store something of the order of 200 watt hours per kilogram.
About 700 KJ/Kg

To get that energy storage density by raising a weight against gravity you need to lift it 70km.
That's pretty much lifting it into space.

lithium-ion battery won't store energy at grid scale it has its application :mobile phones, laptops or perhaps electrical cars.

Please provide figures- preferably for a realistic system that doesn't involve drilling holes a million times bigger than anyone has ever drilled before or anything silly like that.

then this method is silly because it uses huge lakes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
it is grid scale energy storage that why I use deep wells and huge weights and lithium-ion batteries won't work

[Bored chemist]

lithium-ion battery won't store energy at grid scale

It already does.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall


Do you really think hauling weights into space will work?
Do you really think that digging huge holes in the ground will work?

[Yahya (OP)]

lithium-ion battery won't store energy at grid scale

It already does.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

No It doesn't , yes a car power is 15 KW but no one use a car for 15 hours a day, why there is not power stations run by lithium-ion batteries ?

[Kryptid]

all calculations are on the thread https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.0

Where are the calculations that demonstrate an energy density greater than lithium ion batteries? Please quote the exact post, because I cannot find it.

[Bored chemist]

lithium-ion battery won't store energy at grid scale

It already does.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

No It doesn't , yes a car power is 15 KW but no one use a car for 15 hours a day, why there is not power stations run by lithium-ion batteries ?

Learn to read.
The article wasn't about cars.
(Incidentally, a car is more likely to be 150 KW than 15KW)

"why there is not power stations run by lithium-ion batteries ?"
Because they store energy, they don't "create" it.


However there are Lithium batteries used for large scale power storage
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/sep/15/californias-big-battery-experiment-a-turning-point-for-energy-storage

So your claim is just not true.
Please don't repeat it.

[Yahya (OP)]

why not it was invented by da Vinci?

Because Da Vinci had more sense than you have.

it is better than Davinci's Car and simple to be built at that time.

[Yahya (OP)]

all calculations are on the thread https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.0

Where are the calculations that demonstrate an energy density greater than lithium ion batteries? Please quote the exact post, because I cannot find it.

it stores energy in larger amounts that lithium batteries can't doesn't refer to energy density it refers to the failure of lithium-ion batteries storage at grid scale

[Yahya (OP)]

However there are Lithium batteries used for large scale power storage
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/sep/15/californias-big-battery-experiment-a-turning-point-for-energy-storage

if they are that successful why "again" there are not power stations powered by lithium-ion batteries " as a storage tool" , you agree that good storing for renewable energy will solve climate change why they are not used for that purpose?

[Bored chemist]

However there are Lithium batteries used for large scale power storage
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/sep/15/californias-big-battery-experiment-a-turning-point-for-energy-storage

if they are that successful why "again" there are not power stations powered by lithium-ion batteries " as a storage tool" , you agree that good storing for renewable energy will solve climate change why they are not used for that purpose?

Do you really not understand that they set up an experimental system to see if it works?
Then they set up the real storage systems (assuming they do get the system to work).

And, because they have not yet done the experiments to show that it is worthwhile, they have not yet built the full scale storage stations.

[Kryptid]

it refers to the failure of lithium-ion batteries storage at grid scale

Do you have a citation for this?

[Yahya (OP)]

it refers to the failure of lithium-ion batteries storage at grid scale

Do you have a citation for this?

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/ugc/articles/2014/10/will-lithium-ion-work-for-gridscale-storage.html
I quote " they cost too much, they can become a safety hazard and they have a limited lifespan. Utilities and commercial building owners want something that will last twenty years flawlessly."

[Bored chemist]

You forgot to quote " “Lithium ion can be a 20 year asset,” said Bud Collins, CEO of NEC Energy " and "Lithium cobalt batteries are the ones subject to thermal runaway reactions. Lithium phosphate batteries don’t have that problem.".
And perhaps more tellingly
"PG&E had some good news, and bad news about the future of storage. It has been using a 2-megawatt storage system to provide frequency regulation and then tracks the revenue and costs it incurs in selling power as well as performing frequency regulation. The system runs about six hours a day, from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m.
It basically breaks even. In September, the system generated a whopping $318."..
So, even though we know you can actually do this- because people are doing it- you still say it's impossible.

In the mean time you plan to haul a battleship sized weight up and down the biggest hole the world has ever made.

Face it; your idea is interesting, but not good, never mind "great".

[alancalverd]

The idea would be slightly less ridiculous if the falling weight was actually an electric train with a reversible motor/dynamo drive, but the numbers remain unconvincing.