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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1080 on: 30/01/2021 00:18:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 06:30:38
I consider this topic as a spinoff of my previous subject
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=71347.0
It is split up because morality itself is quite complex and can generate a discussion too long to be covered there. 
Before we start the discussion, it might be useful to have some background information to save our time and energy to prevent unnecessary debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
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Morality (from Latin: moralis, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.[1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".

I hope this topic can start a discussion which can eventually produce satisfactory answer to the question .
It's been so long since I first posted in this thread. It was intended to provide peer review process to the hypothesis I offered based on universal terminal goal. So hopefully, someone can give me some feedbacks, pointing out loopholes in my argumentation due to my blindspots by viewing it from different angles.
My thanks and appreciation to those who have contributed to this discussion. Some notable major contributors are Alan with his extended (or restricted) golden rule, David with extended utilitarianism, and Halc with his semi-nihilism (or restricted relativism).
« Last Edit: 30/01/2021 21:55:09 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1081 on: 30/01/2021 11:27:04 »
It is always a pleasure to cross swords with a gentleman.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1082 on: 30/01/2021 21:33:04 »
Celebrating 100k views of this thread, I'm planning to compile my thoughts into short videos and upload them to my Youtube channel. Hopefully they can reach wider audience.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2021 03:32:11 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1083 on: 30/01/2021 22:19:53 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/01/2021 05:00:38
“I was in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021, because I believed I was following the instructions of former President Trump and he was my president and the commander-in-chief. His statements also had me believing the election was stolen from him,” Miller said.
My wife often says that regrets always come late. If they come early, they're called registration instead.
IMO, regret here means that someone has realized that they have used resources in a way that doesn't help achieving their goals effectively and efficiently.
It happens when new information become available which were not when a decision was being made.
Minimizing regrets is one benefit offered by an accurate and precise virtual universe.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2021 22:36:34 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline charles1948

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1084 on: 31/01/2021 17:40:34 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 30/01/2021 11:27:04
It is always a pleasure to cross swords with a gentleman.

You're right.  The crossing of swords between gentlemen, is a very great pleasure.




I   
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1085 on: 31/01/2021 18:03:56 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/01/2021 22:19:53
My wife often says that regrets always come late.
That's a bit obvious, surely? You can't regret something that hasn't happened. But more to the point, regret is strictly for losers, as in this instance. Where a mob has successfully overturned the rule of law, they tend to rejoice - at least until they try to govern!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1086 on: 31/01/2021 21:22:55 »
I'll review some of alternative views of morality discussed here by collecting similarities and differences with universal morality that I've proposed. We all seem to agree that all widely known classical views of morality are incomplete, hence we came up with some ideas to improve them.
Let's start with moral relativism. It seems to start from observations that there are many different moral systems in existence, which may or may not be compatible with one another. But to conclude that they are all equal, and claim that there is no way to compare which moral system is objectively better, is baseless.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2021 12:23:39 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1087 on: 31/01/2021 22:28:17 »
No one can cinvincingly argue that morality of modern secular free society is equal to morality of Jim Jones' Peoples Temple. At least one of them still exists.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2021 12:14:24 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1088 on: 01/02/2021 12:19:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/01/2021 18:03:56
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/01/2021 22:19:53
My wife often says that regrets always come late.
That's a bit obvious, surely? You can't regret something that hasn't happened. But more to the point, regret is strictly for losers, as in this instance. Where a mob has successfully overturned the rule of law, they tend to rejoice - at least until they try to govern!
Yes, it's so obvious that we tend to take it for granted, which makes us forget about it sometimes. Otherwise, we wouldn't frequently see people regret about what they did or didn't do. We need a reminder about it every once in a while.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1089 on: 01/02/2021 12:30:25 »
Allons, enfants de la patrie..... or blame a corrupt ex-president for your failed attack on the Capitol? You see the importance of separating morality (an absolute) from right and wrong (defined by the winner).
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1090 on: 01/02/2021 13:07:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/01/2021 22:28:17
No one can cinvincingly argue that morality of modern secular free society is equal to morality of Jim Jones' Peoples Temple. At least one of them still exists.
Moral values are categorically memes. To be able to survive, they must conserve (at least some of) their media.
Good moralities are those which conserve their media better than their competitors. This conservation includes protecting their media from being "infected" by their competitors.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1091 on: 02/02/2021 06:32:11 »
As an intermezzo, I'd like to share a twitter feed about an interesting case. What do our moral guidelines say about this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/sperm-donor-fertility-meijer.html#click=https://t.co/qqLT0EKkMQ

Quote
The Case of the Serial Sperm Donor
One man, hundreds of children and a burning question: Why? 
Quote
  The first child of in vitro fertilization was born in 1978, and in the decades since, sperm donation has become a thriving global business, as fertility clinics, sperm banks and private donors have sought to meet the demand of parents eager to conceive.

As an industry, however, it is poorly regulated. A patchwork of laws ostensibly addresses who can donate, where and how often, in part to avoid introducing or amplifying genetic disabilities in a population. In Germany, a sperm-clinic donor may not produce more than 15 children; in the United Kingdom the cap is 10 families of unlimited children. In the Netherlands, Dutch law prohibits donating anonymously, and nonbinding guidelines limit clinic donors to 25 children and from donating at more than one clinic in the country. In the United States there are no legal limits, only guidelines from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine: 25 children per donor in a population of 800,000. 
Quote
  In 2019, the Dutch Donor Child Foundation, an advocacy group that facilitates legal and emotional support for donor-conceived people and their families and helps search for biological relatives, determined through DNA testing that Dr. Jan Karbaat, a fertility specialist who died in 2017, had secretly fathered at least 68 children, born to women who visited his clinic near Rotterdam.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1092 on: 02/02/2021 06:40:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/02/2021 13:07:20
Moral values are categorically memes.
To clarify, here are some meanings of meme according to dictionary, and wikipedia.
Quote
   Merriam-Webster
1 : an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture. Memes (discrete units of knowledge, gossip, jokes and so on) are to culture what genes are to life.
Quote
  A meme (/miːm/ MEEM)[1][2][3] is an idea, behavior, or style that becomes a fad and spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carries symbolic meaning representing a particular phenomenon or theme.[4] A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices, that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme.
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  An Internet meme, more commonly known simply as a meme (/miːm/ MEEM), is a type of idea, behaviour, or style (meme) that is spread via the Internet, often through social media platforms and especially for humorous purposes. Memes can spread from person to person via social networks, blogs, direct email, or news sources. They may relate to various existing Internet cultures or subcultures, often created or spread on various websites. Internet memes are "Often, modifications or spoofs add[ed] to the profile of the original idea thus turning it into a phenomenon that transgresses social and cultural boundaries".[1] 
Generally, a meme is information occupying memory space of conscious agents. It can affect the behavior of those agents, which in turn affect their environment too.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2021 09:25:29 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1093 on: 02/02/2021 07:36:55 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/02/2021 13:07:20
Good moralities are those which conserve their media better than their competitors. This conservation includes protecting their media from being "infected" by their competitors.
There is a way to rationalize the existence of various moral values in current societies. We can even identify that some of those values are harmful. Let's compare the situation with following analogy.
Let's say there was a large sinkhole several kilometers away from a river. A big flood raise the river water level and reach the sinkhole. It was filled with river water containing a school of fish from a certain species. When the flood subsided, the sinkhole is isolated again from other bodies of water, but now it contains water and some fishes. After a few millenia those fishes evolves and diverse into several species with different behaviors and genetic makeups. Some are adapted to near surface, while some are adapted to deeper and darker part of the sinkhole. They lose some funcionality of vision.
They can survive with any random changes as long as they are still tolerable by the range of conditions of their environment. The environment includes preys, predators, and competitors.
One day there is an earthquake which create a crack at the bottom of the sinkhole. The water is drained out and seeping into lower layer of earth crust.
The sinkhole end up dry just like how it began. The only fish can survive are those with ability to live on dry land.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2021 09:21:40 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1094 on: 02/02/2021 09:50:33 »
Currently, where there are many different moral values exist, with many of them are evidently sub-optimal, is comparable to the situation when the sinkhole was filled with water. Sooner or later, when the going gets tough, people will abandon those unnecessary values which create inefficiencies and ineffectiveness of their actions. Some moral values already abandoned by modern people, for example, genocide and slavery to get resources from other group of people, human sacrifice to appease god's wrath, burning witches.

The tough challenge expected to come soon is due to competition from people whose moral values are more aligned to the universal terminal goal, which makes their actions and behaviors more effective and efficient in achieving their goals.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2021 11:16:14 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1095 on: 02/02/2021 12:22:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/02/2021 12:30:25
Allons, enfants de la patrie..... or blame a corrupt ex-president for your failed attack on the Capitol? You see the importance of separating morality (an absolute) from right and wrong (defined by the winner).
Who do you think decides the absolute morality? What is it based on?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1096 on: 02/02/2021 13:21:08 »
Morality is the quality of an action that you would be happy to have others do to you, and you would be happy to do to your loved ones. An action is either moral or immoral. It can also be necessary or expedient, but these have no bearing on its morality.

The concept of morality has no meaning outside of human society.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1097 on: 02/02/2021 14:21:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/01/2021 21:22:55
I'll review some of alternative views of morality discussed here by collecting similarities and differences with universal morality that I've proposed.
Now let's analyze the next type of morality, which is utilitarian. As the name suggests, it's about maximizing a utility function. Then it raised a question, what is meant by the utility function meant by a universal morality?
« Last Edit: 02/02/2021 14:59:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1098 on: 02/02/2021 15:26:11 »
In artificial intelligence, the utility function could be anything the programmer want. Some philosophers argued that the utility function of morality is maximizing happiness and minimizing suffering, which are positive and negative forms of emotion, respectively.
At a glance, it may feel reasonable, since capacity for emotion is shown to increase as we move from non-conscious beings to conscious beings. Morality doesn't seem to care about the fate of non-conscious beings. We can destroy a rock and turn it into dust, and noone will say that our action is immoral.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2021 17:15:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1099 on: 02/02/2021 17:19:58 »
Nothing immoral about eating a cow. Conscious beings have nothing to do with it - humans only. Though civilised humans do take a dim view of gratuitous harm to anything.
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