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The criminal's goal is to eat. If he doesn't, "long term" is meaningless.
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/10/2021 13:08:02Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/10/2021 22:53:06That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal. I absolutely agree with you. Everything is relative in the aspect of morality and for each conviction can be equally strong and correct, both for a fascist and an anti-fascist. And each of them will bring their own incredibly powerful arguments.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/10/2021 22:53:06That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal.
That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.
More criminals prosper than farmers. Worst that can happen is you spend a few years being fed at the taxpayer''s expense, studying a trade or an Open University degree, playing chess, and learning from your fellow-professionals. Fishing is dangerous. Universal presumably means that it applies to everyone, nothing to do with long or short term. I have no goals beyond my own lifetime.
Law enforcement, i.e. policing and prosecution, is ineffective, and when it results in a conviction, punishment and protection simply puts a burden on the taxpayer and does nothing to prevent further crimes. When the world comes to its senses, criminals will simply be placed on an island or enclosed in a fenced area and left to get on with building whatever alternative society they want, including the right to die from exposure or establish sustainable housing and agriculture.
The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.
I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants, but this may involve it being less comfortable for your descendants, since we are distributing decreasing resources among an increasing population.
decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions.
I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.
In industrial practice, improvements start with identifying problems. The next step is finding the root cause and contributing causes. Then make a plan to address them to prevent the problem from reoccuring in the future. The chosen plan may depend on available resources, based on its effectiveness and efficiency. Then execute the plan and evaluate the results, which may produce side effects or residual problems.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/10/2021 11:25:31decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions. Observation, definition of life, and basic physics: ΔS > 0. Not assumptions.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/10/2021 11:18:34I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.It would be dishonest to propose an alternative definition of something that cannot exist.
Root cause: parasitism is more efficient than hosting
AbstractThis essay examines the history of the concept of mental health. Its origin can be traced to Plato, who argued that immorality is to the soul what disease is to the body. The purpose of this argument was to answer those who thought that morality is a set of social conventions, and in that sense, is contrary to nature. Plato responded by turning to those who made a systematic study of nature--the medical writers of his day--and claiming that if proper balance is needed to maintain a healthy body, the same is true of the soul. Thus the natural state of the soul is one in which the various parts agree on which should rule. This does not mean that Plato sought to excuse immoral behavior by treating it as a medical condition, only that he regarded immoral behavior as contrary to nature and thus treatable. Although later attempts to define mental health are not as rigid as Plato's, it is remarkable how many of his insights are still applicable, in particular the claim that morality and mental health, though not identical, are nonetheless linked. A case in point is the experience of wanting something but not liking the fact that you want it. Plato regarded internal conflict of this sort as a paradigm case of psychic dysfunction. I argue that we can regard it as either a moral failing or a mental one.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18962894/
Socrates and Plato: the good consequences of being moral are not what make actions good; rather, actions have good consequences because they are good in themselves (and ought to be done for that reason alone). Immorality is due to ignorance of the good.http://people.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/ethics1a.html
I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,
Residual problems: none in the medium term, if segregation is complete and permanent.
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/10/2021 23:45:05I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,Have you found a reason for this?Do you think that everyone feels the same?
It's something to do with animal evolution. All those species that can, choose or modify their environment so that their offspring can flourish. Being a fairly recent and very fragile species with exceptionally long maturation and neoteny, I think the instinct is quite deeply rooted in most humans.