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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline paul cotter

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3060 on: 17/06/2023 09:37:38 »
Oh dear, I believe I can smell philosophy.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3061 on: 17/06/2023 10:20:16 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/06/2023 00:47:39
Would I save a drowning child? All depends on statistics and risk assessment.

Most people are reasonable and grateful if you save their lives. So the first position is to assume the kid doesn't want to drown and isn't particularly evil. So you save him. If he really wants to die, he has he rest of his life to kill himself in my absence. If he turns out to be evil, I can kill him.

Now we look at the circumstances. If I can't swim, or judge that despite my being an Olympic medallist and Coastguard lifesaver the cold/tide/rocks/alligators will kill me anyway, there's no point in making two corpses. Sadly, heroism, altruism or ignorance frequently outweigh the rational decision - in the absence of evidence or experience we tend to assume the best, and end up as a minor news item.  The decision is a bit easier but more painful for a  lifeboat or helicopter captain - you are doing the job that you chose and trained for, possibly for the only time in  your career, but you can't endanger your crew if the situation is beyond your technical limit.  And it's tough for the "dope on a rope" - the paramedic or swimmer who is focussed on making actual contact, but has to submit to the skipper's decision to abandon the rescue.
A lot of disputes in making moral decisions come from inadequately justified assumptions, whether they're taken explicitly or implicitly, which create different expected results.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3062 on: 17/06/2023 10:28:59 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/06/2023 00:48:49
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/06/2023 11:55:15
TRUE EVIL DOESN'T EXIST
...because evil is an adjective, not a noun.
You shouldn't confuse between correlation and causation.
You can find evil as noun in English dictionary.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3063 on: 17/06/2023 10:55:34 »
You have to be very gullible to believe that evil is an entity. It is on a par with fairies and unicorns: some people make money by talking about them as though they are real, and even invoke them as an excuse for their misdeeds*. It is however a very useful adjective.


*in this household, the fairies eat all the chocolate when I am away at work. It's quite possible that the unicorns drink beer, but The Boss doesn't, so their existence is moot. 
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3064 on: 17/06/2023 11:00:45 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/06/2023 10:20:16
A lot of disputes in making moral decisions come from inadequately justified assumptions, whether they're taken explicitly or implicitly, which create different expected results.
But you should never forget greed - the One True Motive behind politics, economics and religion.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3065 on: 17/06/2023 12:38:53 »
Most people think there are evil entities. Some are more evil than the others.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3066 on: 17/06/2023 13:13:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/06/2023 11:00:45
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/06/2023 10:20:16
A lot of disputes in making moral decisions come from inadequately justified assumptions, whether they're taken explicitly or implicitly, which create different expected results.
But you should never forget greed - the One True Motive behind politics, economics and religion.
Greed can be viewed as unjustified assumption that accumulating resources in excess of current necessity can help someone to overcome their problems in the future, even when it causes others to fail to get their necessary resources, to the point where it hurts the society overall. It also rely on assumption that harmed society won't take significant countermeasures which can hurt back the perpetrator of greed, like French Revolution.
« Last Edit: 17/06/2023 13:32:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3067 on: 17/06/2023 13:37:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/06/2023 12:38:53
Most people think there are evil entities. Some are more evil than the others.
Absolutely true, but there is no evidence for evil to exist as an entity in itself. There are red cars and blue cars, but red and blue are not nouns!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3068 on: 17/06/2023 15:11:37 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/06/2023 11:55:15
TRUE EVIL DOESN'T EXIST - Socrates Philosophy
The title seems to refer to evil as an entity. But the video content only talks about evil persons.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3069 on: 17/06/2023 17:59:46 »
Probably compiled by a philosopher - "a person who doesn't understand simple English". An endangered species!
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Offline Zer0

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3070 on: 18/06/2023 21:52:07 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/06/2023 15:11:37
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/06/2023 11:55:15
TRUE EVIL DOESN'T EXIST - Socrates Philosophy
The title seems to refer to evil as an entity. But the video content only talks about evil persons.

It's absolutely Okay.

" Entity " does seem to be used
' Interchangeably ' .
Sometimes it's a Thing, sometimes a Person.

The Oxford Dictionary perhaps is a Best Seller!

ps - " You can please Some of the people All of the time, you can please All of the people Some of the time, but you Cannot please All of the people All of the time ".
(a monk & a poet)
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3071 on: 19/06/2023 06:41:10 »
I've also ask Bard, is there a universal moral standard?
Quote
Whether there is a universal moral standard is a complex question that has been debated by philosophers for centuries. There is no easy answer, as there are many different perspectives on this issue.

Some people believe that there are certain moral principles that are universally true, regardless of culture or individual beliefs. These principles might include things like the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) or the principle of non-maleficence (do no harm). Others believe that morality is relative, and that what is considered right or wrong depends on the individual or the culture in which they live. This view is often referred to as moral relativism.

There is evidence to support both of these views. On the one hand, there are certain moral principles that seem to be widely shared across cultures. For example, most cultures have some form of prohibition against murder, theft, and violence. This suggests that there may be some universal moral standards.

On the other hand, there are also many moral disagreements across cultures. For example, some cultures believe that it is morally acceptable to practice polygamy, while others do not. This suggests that morality is not simply a matter of universal principles, but also depends on the specific context in which people live.

Ultimately, the question of whether there is a universal moral standard is a matter of philosophical debate. There is no easy answer, and both sides of the argument have valid points. It is up to each individual to decide what they believe.

Here are some additional points to consider:

Morality is often seen as a way to promote cooperation and social order. By agreeing on certain moral standards, people can live together more harmoniously.
Morality can also be seen as a way to protect the rights of individuals. By establishing universal moral standards, we can ensure that everyone is treated with respect and dignity.
Ultimately, morality is a complex issue that cannot be easily reduced to a single answer. It is something that we must continue to think about and debate.
Here's an alternative answer by Bard.
Quote
There is no single, universally accepted moral standard. However, there are some moral principles that are widely shared across cultures. These include the principles of harm-avoidance, justice, and cooperation.

Harm-avoidance refers to the principle that it is wrong to harm others, either physically or emotionally. This principle is generally accepted across cultures, although there may be some variation in how it is interpreted. For example, some cultures may view certain forms of harm, such as corporal punishment, as acceptable.
Justice refers to the principle that people should be treated fairly, regardless of their social status, race, gender, or other factors. This principle is also generally accepted across cultures, although there may be some variation in how it is interpreted. For example, some cultures may place a greater emphasis on group justice, while others may place a greater emphasis on individual justice.
Cooperation refers to the principle that people should work together for the common good. This principle is also generally accepted across cultures, although there may be some variation in how it is expressed. For example, some cultures may emphasize cooperation within the family, while others may emphasize cooperation within the community or the nation.
While there is no single, universally accepted moral standard, these three principles provide a foundation for moral decision-making in many cultures.
And another alternative.
Quote
Ultimately, the question of whether there is a universal moral standard is a matter of personal belief. There is no scientific evidence to prove or disprove the existence of such a standard, and it is up to each individual to decide what they believe.

Here are some of the arguments for and against the existence of a universal moral standard:

Arguments for:
There are certain moral principles that are universally accepted, such as the Golden Rule.
People in different cultures tend to agree on some basic moral principles.
Morality is based on human nature, which is universal.

Arguments against:
Morality is relative to culture and individual.
There is disagreement about many moral issues, even within the same culture.
Morality is based on social conventions, which are not universal.
I hope this helps!
I'd like to discuss about them one by one.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3072 on: 19/06/2023 06:49:12 »
I've also asked what's the difference between moral rules and moral standards?
Bard gives an answer, also with 2 other alternatives.
Quote
Moral rules and moral standards are both sets of guidelines that people use to determine what is right and wrong. However, there are some key differences between the two.

Moral rules are specific instructions about what should or should not be done. They are often based on religious or cultural beliefs. For example, a moral rule might be "Thou shalt not kill."

Moral standards are more general principles that guide people's behavior. They are often based on personal values and beliefs. For example, a moral standard might be "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Moral rules are often more rigid than moral standards. For example, it is always wrong to kill, regardless of the circumstances. Moral standards, on the other hand, can be more flexible. For example, it might be considered acceptable to lie to protect someone from harm.

Here is a table that summarizes the key differences between moral rules and moral standards:

Moral rules                                           Moral standards
Specific                                                   General
Based on religious or cultural beliefs      Based on personal values and beliefs
Rigid                                                        Flexible
Always wrong to break                            Sometimes okay to break

Ultimately, the difference between moral rules and moral standards is a matter of degree. There is no clear line between the two. Some rules are more flexible than others, and some standards are more rigid than others.

It is important to note that not everyone agrees on the distinction between moral rules and moral standards. Some people believe that all moral guidelines are simply rules, while others believe that there is a fundamental difference between the two.

The important thing is to understand the different ways that people think about morality and to be respectful of other people's beliefs.

Quote
Moral rules and moral standards are both sets of guidelines that people use to determine what is right and wrong. However, there are some key differences between the two.

Moral rules are specific instructions about what should and should not be done. They are often based on laws, religious teachings, or social norms. For example, a moral rule might be "Thou shalt not kill."

Moral standards are more general principles that guide people's behavior. They are often based on values, such as fairness, compassion, and honesty. For example, a moral standard might be "Always treat others with respect."

Moral rules are often more specific than moral standards. This is because moral rules are typically designed to address specific situations. For example, the rule "Thou shalt not kill" is designed to address the specific situation of murder.

Moral standards, on the other hand, are more general and can be applied to a wider range of situations. For example, the standard "Always treat others with respect" can be applied to a wide range of interactions, from personal relationships to business dealings.

Moral rules and moral standards can both play an important role in guiding people's behavior. However, they serve different purposes. Moral rules provide specific guidance in specific situations, while moral standards provide general guidance that can be applied to a wider range of situations.

Here is a table that summarizes the key differences between moral rules and moral standards:

Feature           Moral Rules                                           Moral Standards
Specificity       Specific                                                   General
Purpose           Provide guidance in specific situations   Provide general guidance that can be applied to a wider range of situations
Examples       "Thou shalt not kill"                                   "Always treat others with respect"

Quote
Moral rules and moral standards are both sets of guidelines that help people make decisions about what is right and wrong. However, there are some key differences between the two.

Moral rules are specific, concrete instructions about what should and should not be done. For example, a moral rule might be "Do not steal." Moral rules are often based on religious or philosophical beliefs, and they are typically enforced by social institutions such as the law or the family.

Moral standards are more general principles about what is right and wrong. For example, a moral standard might be "Be honest." Moral standards are often based on personal values and experiences, and they are not always enforced by external institutions.

In some cases, moral rules and moral standards can conflict with each other. For example, a moral rule might say "Do not lie," while a moral standard might say "Be kind." In these cases, people must use their own judgment to decide which rule or standard is more important in a particular situation.

Here is a table that summarizes the key differences between moral rules and moral standards:

Moral Rules                                                      Moral Standards
Specific and concrete                                      General and abstract
Based on religious or philosophical beliefs      Based on personal values and experiences
Enforced by social institutions                             Not always enforced by external institutions
Can conflict with each other                               May not conflict with each other
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3073 on: 19/06/2023 08:06:02 »
So Bard is a  lawyer?

Old story: professor is addressing freshman law students. "right now, if someone asks you a legal question you will shuffle your feet, look down, and say 'I'm not sure'. In three years' time you will stand up straight, look him in the eye, and say 'that depends...' "
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3074 on: 20/06/2023 04:53:54 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/06/2023 08:06:02
So Bard is a  lawyer?

Old story: professor is addressing freshman law students. "right now, if someone asks you a legal question you will shuffle your feet, look down, and say 'I'm not sure'. In three years' time you will stand up straight, look him in the eye, and say 'that depends...' "
IMO, in not so distant future, it can be a legal advisor.
You can point out where it gets things right, where it gets things wrong, and why so.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3075 on: 20/06/2023 11:58:52 »
The best thing about being a lawyer (or an AI program) is you don't have to worry about science, maths, or even facts. Half the people in any courtroom are lying, and it's the job of the jury, not the lawyers, to decide which half.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3076 on: 24/06/2023 05:56:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/06/2023 11:58:52
The best thing about being a lawyer (or an AI program) is you don't have to worry about science, maths, or even facts. Half the people in any courtroom are lying, and it's the job of the jury, not the lawyers, to decide which half.
If you are expecting to keep your job, at least you need to get good results. You can develop a strategy to reliably deceive the jury, such as playing with their emotions, to make decision in your favor. But your opponents will also develop competing strategy for their favor. At least you need to know what and how the jury think. If they know science, it would be advantageous if you know it too. This gamification is what makes the system worked so far, albeit having some known imperfections.

Lying requires a lot more computational resources than being honest. Because lying persons also need to track the true situations/conditions to make their lies believable. The return may overwhelm the cost in short terms, and it may worth the risks. But you can't keep lying forever, since the costs will eventually outweigh the benefits in faster rate.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3077 on: 24/06/2023 18:12:09 »
The jury isn't required or allowed to know anything except what they are told in court. In some jurisdictions the foreman can ask for clarification, but their decision must be made on the basis of the evidence provided.

Reliability isn't important: each case is only tried once. Some lawyers specialise in prosecution, some in defence, but quite a few are prepared to take either side and all of them pretend to accept the "facts" as reported by their client. The job is to present the client's case to the best of your ability, regardless of its merit.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3078 on: 26/06/2023 09:29:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/06/2023 18:12:09
The jury isn't required or allowed to know anything except what they are told in court. In some jurisdictions the foreman can ask for clarification, but their decision must be made on the basis of the evidence provided.
Aren't they allowed to know some basic language, logic and math? Are those also taught in court?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3079 on: 26/06/2023 09:31:53 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/06/2023 18:12:09
Reliability isn't important: each case is only tried once. Some lawyers specialise in prosecution, some in defence, but quite a few are prepared to take either side and all of them pretend to accept the "facts" as reported by their client. The job is to present the client's case to the best of your ability, regardless of its merit.
Each side can appeal the court decisions.
Clients choose lawyers with consideration of their track records.
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