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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3400 on: 26/10/2023 06:01:30 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/10/2023 04:33:43
The lifetime economic worth of an individual in the West is around $150,000.
It depends on how you define West.
Moreover, income inequality makes the average values differ significantly between mean and median.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3401 on: 26/10/2023 15:41:20 »
Broadly, Europe and North America.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3402 on: 27/10/2023 06:18:32 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/10/2023 15:41:20
Broadly, Europe and North America.
Does it include Russia and Ukraine?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3403 on: 27/10/2023 08:46:24 »
It might have done, a couple of years ago.  Not sure how you can assess an economic value when the most potentially productive members of your society are fully engaged in destroying the infrastructure and each other for the pleasure of a crook.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3404 on: 28/10/2023 05:23:51 »

Psychological Egoism

Quote
According to psychological egoism, all people are ultimately motivated by their own self-interest. Genuine altruism is impossible. This video outlines the case for and against psychological egoism.

0:00 - Egoism vs pluralism
4:52 - Altruistic behaviour
11:38 - Falsifiability
18:50 - Desire ownership
24:55 - The pursuit of pleasure
32:09 - Parsimony
36:33 - An evolutionary argument

IMO, the difference lies in how we put the boundary between inner system and outside of the system. Agents with weak consciousness like babies and little kids are only capable of individually selfish actions for short term results.
« Last Edit: 28/10/2023 07:23:27 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3405 on: 28/10/2023 23:32:31 »
Why does a clever man like you waste your time with this drivel? 
People do things because they have to to want to.
If the thing you want to do benefits someone else more than yourself, it is called "altruistic".
Life and language are a lot simpler than philosophers would like them to  to be.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3406 on: 29/10/2023 08:05:32 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/10/2023 23:32:31
Why does a clever man like you waste your time with this drivel? 
People do things because they have to to want to.
If the thing you want to do benefits someone else more than yourself, it is called "altruistic".
Life and language are a lot simpler than philosophers would like them to  to be.
If you help your enemy to sabotage and eventually kill your own allies, is it altruistic? Or a betrayal instead?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3407 on: 29/10/2023 21:17:01 »
It is a sign of strategic incompetence. Also known as politics.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3408 on: 30/10/2023 09:13:42 »
The ability to identify self system or allies from outsiders or enemies are necessary to sustain complex structures such as living organisms. It's even working down to cellular level of immune systems.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3409 on: 30/10/2023 13:29:13 »
And is absent from priests and politicians.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3410 on: 01/11/2023 14:03:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/10/2023 09:13:42
The ability to identify self system or allies from outsiders or enemies are necessary to sustain complex structures such as living organisms. It's even working down to cellular level of immune systems.
Mitochondria have their own DNA, but they are not regarded as foreign materials, since they are useful for the workings of eukaryotic cells. Gut bacteria are also necessary in digestive systems of some animals, like cows and termites.
On the other hand, cancer cells have very similar DNA as the hosts. But they should be treated as adversaries need to be eliminated for the hosts to survive.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3411 on: 01/11/2023 15:03:05 »
After 171 pages the answer is still a resounding no.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3412 on: 02/11/2023 07:39:02 »
Quote from: Origin on 01/11/2023 15:03:05
After 171 pages the answer is still a resounding no.
What was your conclusion based on?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3413 on: 02/11/2023 13:36:04 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/11/2023 07:39:02
What was your conclusion based on?
It is based on my observation that there is no universal moral standard.
Do you observe a universal standard?  If you do what is it?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3414 on: 02/11/2023 13:45:54 »
Quote from: Origin on 02/11/2023 13:36:04
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/11/2023 07:39:02
What was your conclusion based on?
It is based on my observation that there is no universal moral standard.
Do you observe a universal standard?  If you do what is it?
You should be aware of the black swan theory.
I've proposed the universal moral standard based on the universal terminal goal in this thread several times already. You can start with the post I marked as best answer.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3415 on: 02/11/2023 13:54:05 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/11/2023 13:45:54
You can start with the post I marked as best answer.
Looked at the 'best' answer and saw no universal moral standard.  So that was unhelpful.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3416 on: 03/11/2023 02:31:46 »
Quote from: Origin on 02/11/2023 13:54:05
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/11/2023 13:45:54
You can start with the post I marked as best answer.
Looked at the 'best' answer and saw no universal moral standard.  So that was unhelpful.
I said it's a starting point, not the complete explanation. You shouldn't give up that easily.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/07/2021 10:05:34
A universal moral standard must be based on the achievement of universal terminal goal.
According to the universal moral standard, an action is morally good if it increases the probability of achieving the universal terminal goal. On the other hand, an action is morally bad or immoral if it reduces the probability of achieving the universal terminal goal. The probabilistic evaluation is necessary due to inherently incomplete information that we have regarding the universe. Deterministic moral evaluation requires infinitely intelligent agent, as depicted by hypothetical Laplace's demon.
« Last Edit: 04/11/2023 07:14:00 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3417 on: 03/11/2023 12:02:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/11/2023 02:31:46
According to the universal moral standard, an action is morally good if it increases the probability of achieving the universal terminal goal. On the other hand, an action is morally bad of immoral if it reduces the probability of achieving the universal terminal goal. The probabilistic evaluation is necessary due to inherently incomplete information that we have regarding the universe. Deterministic moral evaluation requires infinitely intelligent agent, as depicted by hypothetical Laplace's demon.
But since there is not a universal terminal goal it is impossible to determine if an action is moral or immoral.
However it seems that every planet we have discovered appears to be sterile.  So quite possibly the terminal goal is to have a universe with no life.  If that is the goal then according to your idea anything you can do to hasten the extinction of life on earth would be a moral action.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3418 on: 04/11/2023 05:56:09 »
Quote from: Origin on 03/11/2023 12:02:52
But since there is not a universal terminal goal
Do you think that goal exists?
Does the word goal has any meaning?
How do you define it?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3419 on: 04/11/2023 06:01:28 »
Quote from: Origin on 03/11/2023 12:02:52
However it seems that every planet we have discovered appears to be sterile. 
Why do you exclude the earth?
How many earth-like planets did you accounted for in your conclusion?
Don't you know that some people are trying to build human colonies on the moon and Mars?
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