[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

rule

I've mentioned before about the difference between rules and standards using analogy of rulers and standard meters. Rules emphasize on practicality, while standards emphasize on consistency, hence more related to longer term goals.

[alancalverd]

Total misunderstanding of the phrase "communist rule"! I have no doubt (in fact I know it for a fact) that measurement standards and materials specifications in the USSR were entirely adequate and consistent with everyone else's, because science does not stop at political boundaries. But the instruction to make N tractors of A specification, and even the measurement of N, came from politicians, not engineers or agricultural salesmen, so whether the factory made N or N/2 (which would  anyway be reported as successfully meeting target N to prevent heads from rolling) and even if they all met specification A, they were no use to a farmer who needed specification B and you ended up with full employment in a factory making scrap tractors, and no food.   

The advantage of a market economy is that salesmen talk to customers and report back that spec B is actually what is needed. 

Curiously, the GM video  implies that this very large company took a command economy approach, committing to volume production of a fixed specification with no risk, whereas others seem to have adopted a market approach, preparing to lose a lot of money whilst responding to changing circumstance (i.e. listening to salesmen and engineers)   until they hit the optimum product at the right time. 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The advantage of a market economy is that salesmen talk to customers and report back that spec B is actually what is needed.

I'd like to share some illustrations in my organization's guideline on E&I Safety Concept.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Moral crisis can occur systematically. Wrongly chosen moral rules created domino effect which accumulated and formed people's behavior.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Situations like war can alter applicable set of moral rules, but the universal moral standard is still applicable by definition.

At 7:52 Elon talks about a moral test in war situation: How do you treat your prisoner of war?

One of the comments shows the timestamp.

0:02: ! The speaker discusses the possibility of war between the US and China in the long term and the importance of understanding the causes of past wars.
2:54:  China's growing economy poses a challenge to the US as the world's economic powerhouse.
5:30: 🇨🇳 China is not a monolithic entity and its population is focused internally rather than on external matters.
8:36: ️ Morality is subjective, but being a prisoner of war with the Americans is recommended by the speaker.
12:04:  Conspicuous acts of kindness can be a powerful tool for preventing wars and promoting peace.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Israel-Hamas War: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)
John Oliver discusses the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas.

IMO, immorality comes from shortsightedness of the moral agents. And the damage it causes is proportional to the power they hold, and the deviation of their moral compass.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Situations like war can alter applicable set of moral rules, but the universal moral standard is still applicable by definition.

At 7:52 Elon talks about a moral test in war situation: How do you treat your prisoner of war?

One of the comments shows the timestamp.

0:02: ! The speaker discusses the possibility of war between the US and China in the long term and the importance of understanding the causes of past wars.
2:54:  China's growing economy poses a challenge to the US as the world's economic powerhouse.
5:30: 🇨🇳 China is not a monolithic entity and its population is focused internally rather than on external matters.
8:36: ️ Morality is subjective, but being a prisoner of war with the Americans is recommended by the speaker.
12:04:  Conspicuous acts of kindness can be a powerful tool for preventing wars and promoting peace.

To be fair, in WW2 the US had arguably the least grudge among war participants, since they had the least grudge. Perhaps it was related to their civilian casualties.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Saudi Prince Turki Al-Faisal, who has previously served as both an intelligence minister and an ambassador to the United States for the kingdom, recently spoke out about the current conflict in Gaza. He acknowledged that Israel was engaging in ethnic cleansing, but blamed both Israel and Hamas for targeting civilians and committing acts of terrorism.

Jimmy and Americans? Comedian Kurt Metzger discuss Al-Faisal?s evenhanded apportionment of blame for the current crisis.

Do governments legitimately represent their people?
How much do people have to bear the blame for the actions of their governments?

[alancalverd]

He acknowledged that Israel

No, he alleged it. You can only acknowledge something you know to be true, and this clearly isn't the case here as he isn't privy to any undisclosed policies of the Israeli government. The stated objective of the IDF is to destroy a terrorist organisation, not to kill people of a particular race.

[alancalverd]

How much do people have to bear the blame for the actions of their governments?

To the extent that they voted for it and continue to serve it. Hence the destruction of Hamburg, Nagasaki, etc.
Sadly, even when the de facto government is illegitimate (like Hamas), the largely blameless civilian population has to bear the consequences of its actions, be they domestic or foreign.

[alancalverd]

How do you treat your prisoner of war?

Exactly according to the Geneva Convention.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The stated objective of the IDF is to destroy a terrorist organisation, not to kill people of a particular race.

How do you know that the statement is true?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

How much do people have to bear the blame for the actions of their governments?

To the extent that they voted for it and continue to serve it. Hence the destruction of Hamburg, Nagasaki, etc.
Sadly, even when the de facto government is illegitimate (like Hamas), the largely blameless civilian population has to bear the consequences of its actions, be they domestic or foreign.

Some said that Israeli civilian became victims on October 7th because of Israeli government's failure in protecting their citizens.

How do you treat your prisoner of war?

Exactly according to the Geneva Convention.

Many thought and acted like it's easier said than done.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

How much do people have to bear the blame for the actions of their governments?

To the extent that they voted for it and continue to serve it. Hence the destruction of Hamburg, Nagasaki, etc.
Sadly, even when the de facto government is illegitimate (like Hamas), the largely blameless civilian population has to bear the consequences of its actions, be they domestic or foreign.

That's also what Bin Laden wrote in his letter.

[alancalverd]

The stated objective of the IDF is to destroy a terrorist organisation, not to kill people of a particular race.

How do you know that the statement is true?

Listen to any Israeli government or military spokesman. How else do you get to know someone's stated objective? 

[alancalverd]

Some said that Israeli civilian became victims on October 7th because of Israeli government's failure in protecting their citizens.

Raping and beheading are not usually the direct consequences of a failure of government. Most courts and sane men tend to blame the perpetrator for what he did - that is the essence of what we in the civilised world call justice.

So I will steal your car/money/wife, and ask for your judgement of culpability. You will admit blame for inadequate security, and no further action will be taken.

[alancalverd]

Quote from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 17:18:33
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 11/11/2023 07:31:55
How do you treat your prisoner of war?
Exactly according to the Geneva Convention.
Many thought and acted like it's easier said than done.

It's easily done by civilised people. Worth reading about WWII PoW camps run by the Wehrmacht (who generally played by the rules) compared with the SS (BMW drivers in uniform).

[alancalverd]

That's also what Bin Laden wrote in his letter.

And Bin Laden was elected by whom? Apart from educating him and paying vast sums to his family, I can't see what the US taxpayer actually did to annoy Bin Laden.

The Nazis had a popular majority, Hamas just butchered the opposition. Which is why I pointed out that civilians can suffer the consequences of their politicians' actions whether legitimate or not.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Listen to any Israeli government or military spokesman. How else do you get to know someone's stated objective? 

Some Israeli government official was on the record saying that Hamas was their assets, on purpose of preventing the formation of legitimate Palestinian government.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

And Bin Laden was elected by whom? Apart from educating him and paying vast sums to his family, I can't see what the US taxpayer actually did to annoy Bin Laden.

That's a problem with identity politics. People who are not directly related to a conflict can be involved, either voluntarily or not. It amplifies the damage done to both sides.
Not every leader is elected, since not every government is democratic.