[alright1234 (OP)]

The particle physics Fermilab (1967) accelerator used an radio frequency (RF) cavity and magnets to accelerate protons that make over 1,000 passes through a 6 km circumference beam pipe and RF cavity. The accelerated proton beam collides with a beryllium target forming subatomic particles that propagate through the steel enclosure of the 15 ft  bubble chamber to produce spiral liquid hydrogen bubble tracks that are used to determine the masses of the subatomic particles. Originally, the existence a proton is justified using an alcohol track formed within a Wilson cloud chamber yet alcohol molecules of the cloud chamber have a mass 50 times larger than the mass of a proton. A single proton propagating through the cloud chamber is interacting with over 2,000 alcohol molecules that have a mass 50 times larger than a proton to form a single cloud chamber alcohol track that is used to justify the existence of a proton yet a proton that originates from a hydrogen atom's nucleus is extremely unstable and cannot interact with the alcohol molecules to form an alcohol track within Wilson's cloud chamber which contests the existence of a nuclear proton. In addition, it is questionable how a proton that forms the alcohol track is formed since Rutherford use the interaction of alpha particles with nitrogen gas to form protons but alpha particles originate from the decay of a radioactive isotope which result in numerous mode of decay such as alpha decay, proton emission, neutron emission, spontaneous fission and cluster decay; therefore, it would not be possible to isolate the alpha particles that are used to interact with the nitrogen gas molecules to from the protons that are used to form the proton that is use to form the alcohol track that is used to justify the existence of a proton. In the Fermilab particle accelerator, a carbon filter is used to separate the components of a hydrogen ions to form a homologous Fermilab proton beam. The Fermilab describe a carbon filter (foil) that filters out the protons from the components of the hydrogen ions to form a proton beam but the carbon foil separation and isolation mechanism appears extremely dubious since physicists cannot separate tritium from water.  Furthermore, the Fermilab proton beam is propagating through a 6 km beam pipe but the propagation of positive charged protons would require a cathode in front the the protons yet the protons are propagating through the beam pipe without a cathode in front the the proton beam. The cyclotron is used to justify the existence of a proton beam but the Lawrence cyclotron's proton beam is a blue light beam (fig 19).

[alancalverd]

What is the question? And presumably you mean "visualise", not "justify".

[alright1234 (OP)]

Do protons of the Fermilab proton beam exist? Also, the visualization of the alcohol track was used to justify the existence of the protons of the proton beam but how does not separate the proton from all the other stuff.

[Bored chemist]

a proton that originates from a hydrogen atom's nucleus is extremely unstable and cannot interact with the alcohol molecules to form an alcohol track within Wilson's cloud chamber

No.

[Bored chemist]

Furthermore, the Fermilab proton beam is propagating through a 6 km beam pipe but the propagation of positive charged protons would require a cathode in front the the protons yet the protons are propagating through the beam pipe without a cathode in front the the proton beam.

Also no.

[alancalverd]

A proton is a hydrogen nucleus. It is indefinitely stable and because it carries a positive charge and considerable kinetic energy from the accelerator, it can ionise lots of molecules before it comes to rest. These ions can nucleate droplets in a cloud chamber.

You can separate the tracks of various particles by applying magnetic fields to the chamber. Each type of particle wil have a different characteristic track depending on its mass, charge and speed.

[evan_au]

The particle physics Fermilab (1967) accelerator used an radio frequency (RF) cavity and magnets to accelerate protons that make over 1,000 passes through a 6 km circumference beam pipe and RF cavity.

Generating Protons (Hydrogen nuclei) don't need high energy and large particle accelerators.

Each droplet of water (H₂O) spontaneously breaks down into H⁺ (Protons) and OH^- ions, and this affects the properties of water dramatically. Add a little CO₂, and there are far more protons floating around.

Fermilab describe a carbon filter (foil) that filters out the protons from the components of the hydrogen ions to form a proton beam

I have seen the small tank of Hydrogen gas (available from a commercial gas supplier), which supplied enough protons to keep the Large Hadron Collider operating for 6 months.

Hydrogen_proton_source_CERN_Spring_2012_small.jpg (185.42 kB . 800x1067 - viewed 7036 times)
Protons are very well established - they form the solar wind and auroras; these days, proton beams are even used in cancer therapy.

[alright1234 (OP)]

Proton beam therapy is used to justify the existence of a proton beam but protons that have a mass 1,000 times greater than an electron would destroy human skin, bone and tissue in the path of the proton beam. It is more likely that mass-less gamma rays causing the effect of proton beam therapy. 

[Kryptid]

but protons that have a mass 1,000 times greater than an electron would destroy human skin, bone and tissue in the path of the proton beam.

Do you have calculations to support that assertion?

It is more likely that mass-less gamma rays causing the effect of proton beam therapy. 

Gamma rays can't be accelerated by the magnetic fields of a particle accelerator.

[Bored chemist]

Proton beam therapy is used to justify the existence of a proton beam but protons that have a mass 1,000 times greater than an electron would destroy human skin, bone and tissue in the path of the proton beam. It is more likely that mass-less gamma rays causing the effect of proton beam therapy. 

The point of proton beam therapy is to destroy (cancer) tissue.


At higher doses, you get clear physical destruction, as in this unfortunate guy's case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

[evan_au]

PS: Here is the caption on that tank of Hydrogen gas, supplying protons for CERN.
The green rectangle in the diagram shows where the tank sits, at the start of the LHC accelerator chain.

Hydrogen_proton_source_CERN_caption_small.jpg (186.63 kB . 800x1173 - viewed 7070 times)

[evan_au]

protons that have a mass 1,000 times greater than an electron would destroy human skin, bone and tissue in the path of the proton beam

The problem with electrons is that they are so light. I would expect an electron beam to be severely attenuated and scattered by passing through air, and it would be stopped by skin, causing surface damage but nor reaching a cancer.

The odd thing about proton beams is that they cause relatively little damage while they are traveling near the speed of light
- So they don't cause much damage before they reach the cancer.
- But when the protons slow down, they deliver almost all their energy (and damage) in the last few millimeters of their journey. This is called the "Bragg Peak".
- They don't continue onwards to cause damage beyond the cancer.
- This is much more focussed therapy than X-Rays, as illustrated in the graph in this Wikipedia article (Gamma Rays, also being highly penetrating ionising radiation, would be similar to X-Rays in the amount of damage they cause before and after reaching the cancer)
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_therapy

[alright1234 (OP)]

Re: Do protons of the Fermilab proton beam exist?
« Reply #8 on: 13/04/2019 21:08:24 »
Quote from: alright1234 on 13/04/2019 20:37:43
but protons that have a mass 1,000 times greater than an electron would destroy human skin, bone and tissue in the path of the proton beam.

Do you have calculations to support that assertion?


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Electrons of a arc welder can cut and weld steel.

[Kryptid]

Electrons of a arc welder can cut and weld steel

And the electrons from a static shock via doorknob won't even singe your skin. The difference between these sources of electrons is energy. Obviously, the arc welder has much, much more energy than the static shock does. So I ask you again, do you have calculations that show that the protons used in proton beam therapy should be able to cause the damage you claim they should?

[Bored chemist]

Electrons of a arc welder can cut and weld steel.

I think that a good part of the energy transfer in an arc welder is due to ions, rather than electrons, but  it hardly matters.
Arc welders aren't relevant.
The current in a welder is of the order of 10 or 100 Amps.
The current in a typical proton accelerator is of the order of millionths of an amp.

[alright1234 (OP)]

For a proton that has a mass to propagates through matter requires a hole. It does not matter what energy the proton has.

[Kryptid]

For a proton that has a mass to propagates through matter requires a hole.

Based on what reasoning? I don't think you have a good handle on just how small protons are (even the smallest atom, helium, is over 70,000 times larger than a proton), and atoms are already mostly empty space.

[evan_au]

The current in a typical proton accelerator is of the order of millionths of an amp.

The LHC storage ring, when freshly charged to maximum capacity has about the kinetic energy of a jumbo jet on landing. Another analogy was "87 kg of TNT". That is a fairly significant energy.

There are two beam dump devices on the ring, and the beam discharges into them in about 45 microseconds, representing a phenomenal power rating!

I understand that they have to wait quite a few hours after a beam dump for it to cool down before they risk doing it again...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Operational_challenges

Of course, it also takes quite a few hours to charge up the ring after a beam dump...

[alright1234 (OP)]

If an atom was mostly empty space then why do not electron pass through steel and if an atom was mostly empty space then why does not light propagate through opaque materials? Is not a photon smaller than a electron?  Is not a electron and photon a subatomic particle?

[alancalverd]

Quantum mechanics. Subatomic particles don't behave like billiard balls.