[jeffreyH]

Please God, can you rid the world of coronavirus today. We would be forever grateful. Amen. Let's see what happens, shall we?

[alancalverd]

Are you suggesting that the Almighty should change his mind? Or that the laws of physics, which underpins chemistry, which determines biology, should be suspended for the convenience of one species over another?

Chutzpah! Homo sapiens is being punished for eating God's chosen species. We should have learned our place in Creation when the Lord protected gorillas  by infecting them with ebola, but apparently He needed to protect bats too.

[CliveG]

And why do you refuse to consider the possibility I might be the real deal?

I told you that already.
Occam's razor.

Why don't you
 listen?

And I told you that you are reflexively trotting out one standard response and logical fallacy after the other instead of using your brain to analyze what I am telling you. If I had only one or two strange events then you are justified in being skeptical. I certainly would be - and they are happening to me.

I say up - you say down.
I say white - you say black.
I say right - you say either wrong or left.

You are a nay-sayer - a contrarian. Try debating my hypothesis as a possible scenario to the existence of our universe, the emergence of intelligence from "dumb matter", the problem of consciousness, the need for a Prime Cause, as well as an explanation for the mystic happenings and religion.

Take each of my events and apply your "natural" physical explanations. Firstly most of them really have to be stretched in order to be relevant because the odds are very against them happening. Then add up the odds that all of these would happen to one person. I have many more for you to analyze.

Surely science has got to say that the only "simple" explanation is the existence of God. Occam's Razor would say that my hypothesis is simpler than an eleven dimensional multi-universe explanation which is unprovable as well as not providing explanations for mystic events. It is also simpler than a "we do not know" explanation.

[CliveG]

Are you suggesting that the Almighty should change his mind? Or that the laws of physics, which underpins chemistry, which determines biology, should be suspended for the convenience of one species over another?

Chutzpah! Homo sapiens is being punished for eating God's chosen species. We should have learned our place in Creation when the Lord protected gorillas  by infecting them with ebola, but apparently He needed to protect bats too.

Instead of denialistic sarcasm, why do you not tell me what is your problem with my hypothesis? An amoral intelligent Prime Cause dreaming up the Universe. And included in the dream is a good God that has limitations and has to obey the rules and let physics operate most of the time but has the power to prevent extinction and to prevent Satan from creating a dystopia.

This explanation should be acceptable to scientists and to atheists who have to then tend to agnosticism and also to the many religions who can have a common basis of belief.

[CliveG]

Yesterday my wife spoke to an older German lady. She that the governments are talking about being at war. She said it is an awfully quiet conflict. She remembers the sound of planes roaring overhead in Germany and the terrifying sound of bombs dropping.

She said she feels that this is a result of humans disrespecting the Earth and nature. She hopes it will cause people to "wake up". "Woke" is now not only relevant to racial and social justice but to respect for our one and only Planet.

The infection rates are soaring and so are some death tolls. When one hears of doctors and nurses dying the virulence strikes home. Four people in one family in one week dying and other family members hospitalized. The USA has been slow to respond, especially with test kits. Check the news media for January and February. The lack of concern amazed me (BC - give me percentage coverage for each outlet for each week if you wish to be contrary). There was little or no preparation.

Is there anyone who now doubts this is serious - and not equivalent to the flu?

[alancalverd]

The infection rates are soaring and so are some death tolls.

Pedant speaking. Why do journalists tell us that "the death toll has increased"? It cannot decrease!!! The only credible and newsworthy headline would be "no further deaths".

[alancalverd]

Is there anyone who now doubts this is serious - and not equivalent to the flu?

The President of the United States, and all True Believers therein. It is a communist plot, from which America will rise all the greater, as long as folk continue to buy coal, guns and toilet paper. Socialised medicine and public health laboratories are the tools of Satan. Heil to the Fuhrer.   

[alancalverd]

what is your problem with my hypothesis?

It lacks evidence, explains nothing, and is not predictive.

[Bored chemist]

I say up - you say down.
I say white - you say black.
I say right - you say either wrong or left.

No
Here's the corrected version
I say up - you "where's the evidence?".
I say white - you say "where's the evidence?".
I say right - you say "where's the evidence?".

And until you recognise that evidence doesn't mean one person's experience, you're not going to understand why we are not making progress here.

Please try to give the idea some thought.

[Bored chemist]

Are you suggesting that the Almighty should change his mind?

They call that prayer.
Silly, isn't it.

[Bored chemist]

he only "simple" explanation is the existence of God.

That's just wrong on the facts.
Why do you say it?

Do you really not understand that a big bang (whatever caused it) is less complicated than a  powerful sentient entity?

[Bored chemist]

Yesterday my wife spoke to an older German lady. She that the governments are talking about being at war. She said it is an awfully quiet conflict. She remembers the sound of planes roaring overhead in Germany and the terrifying sound of bombs dropping.

She said she feels that this is a result of humans disrespecting the Earth and nature. She hopes it will cause people to "wake up". "Woke" is now not only relevant to racial and social justice but to respect for our one and only Planet.

The infection rates are soaring and so are some death tolls. When one hears of doctors and nurses dying the virulence strikes home. Four people in one family in one week dying and other family members hospitalized. The USA has been slow to respond, especially with test kits. Check the news media for January and February. The lack of concern amazed me (BC - give me percentage coverage for each outlet for each week if you wish to be contrary). There was little or no preparation.

Is there anyone who now doubts this is serious - and not equivalent to the flu?

Bloody hell!
I had to check who had written this.
It is essentially correct in all regards.

Pity it has nothing to do with the topic.

[CliveG]

The infection rates are soaring and so are some death tolls.

Pedant speaking. Why do journalists tell us that "the death toll has increased"? It cannot decrease!!! The only credible and newsworthy headline would be "no further deaths".

For some reason our TV subscription activated CNN a couple of days ago. It is Sunday morning, and we saw the graphs of Italy and Spain and the USA. All exponential, with the USA tracking the first two. The fear is also increasing exponentially, as is the realization that this pandemic is SERIOUS.

And CNN says did the President do nothing in January and February. Why? Because the US media (Tuck Carlson excepted) did nothing. A little as a week ago I was hearing about how this pandemic is just a bad flu.

And when did I say such a pandemic was imminent?

Re: Can science prove God exists?
« Reply #102 on: 30/09/2019 11:13:36 »

It comes down to your motivation. If you are trying to test the existence of God, that is not allowed. If you want to get fame and recognition, that again is a selfish act. God wants people to strive to do good - not fill out an application form. God only intervenes for small personal requests that are easy to do and difficult to prove his/her existence, or the intervention is to guide the destiny of humankind.

These last interventions can different forms. One is that he can do nothing to prevent a pandemic like the Black Plague. Another is that he can stop a pandemic from spreading at a time it would direct humankind in the wrong direction. He is going to do nothing to stop the pending die-off which has already started but people are ignoring it and will ignore it until too late.

My post was pretty much the time the first case (patient zero) happened. One has to extrapolate backwards from early December when the disease was first noticed.

And the reaction of people? Disbelief. Want proof of God? How about a messenger (albeit reluctant) telling the world that God said a Great Die-off would happen and then refined it to say it was imminent? Reaction - scoffing and more scoffing? The book was written foretelling this, together with why God was going to do nothing to stop it, only protect those who deserve to live or he has a plan for. Reaction - no interest (probably because I had no Jewish publicist promoting the book - not sarcasm, just acknowledgement of how good they are).

[CliveG]

I say up - you say down.
I say white - you say black.
I say right - you say either wrong or left.

No
Here's the corrected version
I say up - you "where's the evidence?".
I say white - you say "where's the evidence?".
I say right - you say "where's the evidence?".

And until you recognise that evidence doesn't mean one person's experience, you're not going to understand why we are not making progress here.

Please try to give the idea some thought.

Evidence? See my last post. Or is my prediction of an imminent pandemic not Good enough for you? Lucky guess? Yeah right.

Please try to give the concept some thought. 

[CliveG]

I give a message and information and no-one wants to believe.  They want me to do a miracle to first provide proof. I am giving my credentials by way of a logical hypothesis and a long list of personal experiences. Of course, believers are not open to new ideas. They do not want to change. They fear that Satan might be influencing me. They too want a miracle - a big one.

I posted this mostly out of ignorance because I had not really debated with any believers. God corrected me as last night we had a couple over who are committed Christians. All my wife's friends are committed Christians but I do not talk to them because of the taboo about false prophets and Tarot cards. Corona was a big topic and I brought up my prediction.

Surprise "I did not know you can do Tarot cards". With a hint of judgement. But I went on and described my hypothesis. It was basically well received. The woman said my beliefs were not far from her own. She wants to hear more.

I asked her who created the corona virus. Satan she said.
Who created Satan? He was a fallen angel she said.
Who created angels? She saw why I was promoting the idea of an amoral Infinite Intelligence.

She asked if I believed in guardian angels. Yes, I said. I think I have always had two because they had to work so hard to keep me out of trouble. Where do they come from she asked. I think they are souls of the departed - good souls assigned to protect. Who assigns them? I think God assigns guardian angels and I think Satan assigns demons - bad souls that infect people.

She asked intelligent questions and was interested in the answers. She had no idea of that side of me. The man asked me how my beliefs correlate to me as an engineer and person of practical science. I said the events happened to me that I had to have an answer to. Science does not have the answers. Big Bang caused by something unknown is not an answer. I said my hypothesis had the answers for all faiths, including skeptics.

[CliveG]

My wife wanted to visit her son and his wife before they went on a holiday to the Kruger park. They will be camping and doing barbecues The daughter-in-law asked when my wife had been in contact with people from overseas. She was relieved when my wife said she would not visit.

My wife has asked me to take precautions so I do not bring the virus home and jeopardize her and others. Unfortunately she got the news on Friday that the growth removed from her chest has melanoma cells and required a bigger area to be removed. I blame the cell tower once more for starting it.

She asked if we can still have people over for a later afternoon meal. I said as long as we all take precautions. But it may soon come down to stay at home. I have plenty of projects that I can do. I am hearing more every abut how people cheat and rip off others. Are there no limits? Even a "Christian" group renting space for their Sunday service defaults and makes no plan to pay.

I hear people talking about and actioning buying of stock that is "good value". When will the bounce (recovery) happen? The UK says this many last a year or more. My wife say her mother said you only lose when you sell. I say a stock of zero value has no value.

[Bored chemist]

I blame the cell tower once more for starting it.

You live in South Africa.
It's Sunny.

Evidence? See my last post. Or is my prediction of an imminent pandemic not Good enough for you? Lucky guess? Yeah right.

Please try to give the concept some thought.

OK,  a few other people not only preempted a pandemic, but wrote films about it.


CONTAGION
OUTBREAK
I AM LEGEND
28 DAYS LATER
CARGO
THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN
WARM BODIES
TWELVE MONKEYS
THE NIGHT EATS THE WORLD
BIRDEMIC: SHOCK AND TERROR
(shamelessly stolen from here)
https://concreteplayground.com/sydney/arts-entertainment/pandemics-contagions-films-stream

Are you saying all these people are psychic, or just that a pandemic is inevitable.
People have been writing about  (and predicting) plagues since biblical times at least.

Why do you think you are special, just because you predicted something inevitable?

[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on Today at 06:41:06

    I blame the cell tower once more for starting it.

You live in South Africa.
It's Sunny.

Timing, dear BC, timing. I said that the tower was causing cancers in all the towers around us, and that I feared it in my wife. The first 6 months saw her get a facial cancer. Then after 9 months in the house after they turned the tower back on she now has an growth on her chest. I had warned her to get any growths removed or burnt out but she said she was working with a skin specialist and that I was over-reacting. The neighbors on the other side of the tower had a similar problem, and the husband got prostate cancer back again a few months ago. I moved out the last six months because the tower made me ill. I now have to pray she will be okay.

So once more you use a logical fallacy to deny a truth. Coincidence plus other factors.

Reminds me of the joke about the German officer who rapes a French prostitute as she tries to say he should not because of her health and the bad timing. The officer thinks the prostitute is talking being at her most fertile in her menstrual cycle. Afterwards he says "In 9 months, you will have a bouncing baby boy, and if you like, you may call him Adolf". The woman replies "In 3 months, you will have a red rash all over and if you like you can call it German measles". I hope this joke is not too much in bad taste but I think it illustrates how you can get the cause wrong by attributing a problem to something else. You may be right, but you might also be wrong.

You can call the current pandemic a bad flu and say we will get over it and back to business, but I say it is just the start of a society changing process. Which one of us will be around in a few years to argue who was right? And remember that I have said this is just the start of a number of disasters.

You seem to like quoting from the Bible. What about the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Pestilence is but one, famine is another, war is another, with bloodshed and death.

[Bored chemist]

Timing, dear BC, timing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

The joke's pushing it but ... it illustrates a point.
For years, people have known out that  exposure to german measles causes a red rash all over and that exposure to the Sun causes melanoma.

You seem to be taking the view that the German officer should blame his walkie talkie for the rash.

Do you not see why that's absurd?

[CliveG]

Are you saying all these people are psychic, or just that a pandemic is inevitable.
People have been writing about  (and predicting) plagues since biblical times at least.

Why do you think you are special, just because you predicted something inevitable?

Timing, dear BC, timing. NOW people are saying - we DID know it would happen and we SHOULD have prepared. But did they? My predictions (such as those in Tarot card readings) are all accurate, and not vague. How many of those story tellers really thought the pandemic was imminent? The 2012 Mayan prophecy was all the rage and so disaster movies followed.

In 2009 God spoke to me about a really bad pandemic and a day or so later I learned about Swine Flu. God confirmed I had not got the message wrong with two confirmations (like Gideon). But a week later I said it was not the big one. Did I say that the 2012 MERS was the big one - no.

Did I predict the Middle East "Spring Uprising". Yes. In a vision. And with two Gideon like confirmations. A week or so before the Tunisian man set himself on fire which was the start. I have recorded some of this but one could accuse me of falsifying my records. Some are verifiable.

But I have no egotistical motivation in trying to prove my story is correct. People have to see the logic and reason and make up their own minds. Once more - take it or leave it. I am not starting a religion. Only adding confirming some facts that some people have thought about and discussed but without proof as to the validity of those musings.