[alancalverd]

Nobody is doubting that massive quantities of energy can alter cell mechanisms in vitro. The question you raised is whether minute quantities of energy can temporarily and significantly disrupt gross function in vivo, to which the answer seems to be "not adequately tested". 

My father used to quote an old French story about the scientist who trained a flea to jump on command. Then he cut off the flea's legs and said "jump" (actually, "sautez"). Nothing happened. He wrote down "Cut flea's legs off, flea cannot hear. Therefore flea has ears in legs."  Beware of casual non sequiturs.

 

[evan_au]

Another holiday snap from Central Stockholm that may have some bearing on this thread.

This is the Stockholm town well, in the old town square.
- On each side it has a large, weighted pendulum (now locked, probably for OH&S reasons...), and on each corner a water spout where you would place your bucket.
- Apparently to get the pump going, the townspeople would get the weight swinging
- This would pump the water using a steady input of power, rather than large peaks of power, so I guess this makes it easier for children to fetch the water.

Pendulum_Pump_small.jpg (166.46 kB . 640x853 - viewed 3001 times)
Relevance to Biological impacts of cellphone towers:
The fear in this thread seems to be that (like the Stockholm central pump), biological molecules could have a resonance at certain frequencies. If cellphone towers emit those frequencies, the amplitude might build up until it damaged the biological molecules (eg to produce mutations or cancer), or dislocated the active site of enzymes.

The Questions:
1. Do biological molecules have a specific resonant frequency (like the pendulum on the pump)?
2. Do cellphone towers produce power at that/those specific frequency/s?
3. Could the radiation from cellphone towers create an oscillation in polar parts of molecules that could build up over time to shake apart biological molecules (or at least the active site of enzymes)?

How would you address these concerns, as a chemist, physicist and communications engineer?

[Bored chemist]

And with the posters on this site avoiding the real issues

What "real" issue has been avoided here?

The one posed in the opening post. Namely cellular disruption and reactive oxygen species.

Many scientists and some very eminent ones are certain there is real risk.

You guys pose as having some kind of scientific background but that is as far as it goes. You are simply supporting the establishment for whatever reasons you have - and trotting out their arguments which are propaganda for the masses.

OK, just in case nobody mentioned this before, the answer is...
No.
Or at least, not at any level that has been detected in reasonable experiments.

You seem not to understand why I keep mentioning that stuff you posted about Stockholm.
If the stuff about phone radiation killing people was real then the deaths in Stockholm would be real.

But they aren't.

Stockholm is (among many other places) the exact experiment you need to do in order to answer the question.

And the answer is clear; they are still walking.
So you are clearly wrong.

If the epidemic happens, come back and tell us you told us so.

[CliveG]

[snip]
The fear in this thread seems to be that (like the Stockholm central pump), biological molecules could have a resonance at certain frequencies. If cellphone towers emit those frequencies, the amplitude might build up until it damaged the biological molecules (eg to produce mutations or cancer), or dislocated the active site of enzymes.

The Questions:
1. Do biological molecules have a specific resonant frequency (like the pendulum on the pump)?
2. Do cellphone towers produce power at that/those specific frequency/s?
3. Could the radiation from cellphone towers create an oscillation in polar parts of molecules that could build up over time to shake apart biological molecules (or at least the active site of enzymes)?

How would you address these concerns, as a chemist, physicist and communications engineer?

You clearly have not bothered to read any article about cellular effects involving reactive oxygen species and calcium channels. The pulsing voltage affects the channels which then produce excess ROS which in turn causes the effects from headaches and memory loss to cancer. There are various in vitro and in vivo studies that show this.

Do I have to summarize and spell it out for you?

[alancalverd]

See reply #300 to save you having to repeat yourself.

[Bored chemist]

There are various in vitro and in vivo studies that show this.

Do you remember what happened when you posted details of the studies?

[CliveG]

This evening I visited a family who had a lamp-post type mini-tower erected in the opposite property. I went to measure the radiation. It was about 2,500 uW/sqm in front of the house and outside the main bedroom. It was 600 to 1200 inside their bedroom. They asked for solutions. The seller of the property was aware a tower was coming and sold. The family bought it a month or two ago. They intend to set up a kindergarten.

It was powered up yesterday and last night the wife had a epileptic seizures. She has front temporal lobe epilepsy but has been symptom free for quite a while. She had no idea the tower could cause that. She is now worried.

Coincidence? Yeah right. Like the Titanic hitting the iceberg - just coincidence that it sank.

I will revert to you on the low power studies.

I presume both of you do not believe in climate change either.

[CliveG]

And I should have added that after a half-hour in the house taking readings I started to get a headache. It cleared up within 20 mins of leaving. Psychosomatic - of course - what else could it be (heavy sarcasm).

I will have to start wearing protective gear when I do these visits.

[Bored chemist]

She has front temporal lobe epilepsy but has been symptom free for quite a while. She had no idea the tower could cause that. She is now worried.

So, the stress of worrying about a non existent risk triggered a seizure.

Keep up the good work.

I presume both of you do not believe in climate change either.

I believe in anthropogenic global warming- because there's evidence.
It's interesting... Alan and I have somewhat different views on climate change, and also on a number of other issues.
However, you have achieved the remarkable outcome of getting us to both agree.

[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on Yesterday at 19:14:13

    She has front temporal lobe epilepsy but has been symptom free for quite a while. She had no idea the tower could cause that. She is now worried.

So, the stress of worrying about a non existent risk triggered a seizure.

Keep up the good work.

Good one. How predictable. Congratulations on fitting another square peg in a round hole.

Of course, stress also causes cancer. Living causes stress. We are all doomed to die. Keep this one for the epidemiological studies that are soon going to be showing all sorts of illnesses. How do we do a double blind test when the towers are on almost every street corner? When she puts on a foil helmet and get relief, you will no doubt call that a nocebo.

This is why I say that finally, when people begin to relate deaths and illnesses to towers, it will be too late. The industry propaganda will have done its work.

[Bored chemist]

How do we do a double blind test when the towers are on almost every street corner?

Switch some off and see how many complaints it still generates or, more practically
REPEAT THE DOUBLE BLIND TESTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE AND WHICH HAVE FOUND NO ISSUES.

[Bored chemist]

When she puts on a foil helmet and get relief, you will no doubt call that a nocebo.

No, because I know what the word means.
I will call it a placebo.

Congratulations on fitting another square peg in a round hole.

Once again, get a mirror.

[CliveG]

How do we do a double blind test when the towers are on almost every street corner?

Switch some off and see how many complaints it still generates or, more practically
REPEAT THE DOUBLE BLIND TESTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE AND WHICH HAVE FOUND NO ISSUES.

Do you not find it strange that the cell companies are not willing to participate in such tests? After all they could then "prove" that people are not having problems. But they will not. They know they are causing harm. No other reason for contempt of court to turn on our tower and sicken me. They knew it would likely make me late in a court filing.

What double blind tests? Give me two or three so I can critique them.

Are you willing to accept you may be wrong and that the levels I mention (30 to 3,000uW/sqm) 24 hours a day may cause harm? Give me a percentage other than zero.

[CliveG]

When she puts on a foil helmet and get relief, you will no doubt call that a nocebo.

No, because I know what the word means.
I will call it a placebo.

Congratulations on fitting another square peg in a round hole.

Once again, get a mirror.

No sympathy for a family that is NOW stressed becase they know their house has biologically dangerous levels of radiation. Shame. You get your phone signal. And maybe your stock dividends.

This technology is being rolled out on a massive scale without any regard for the precautionary principle. When people started to raise the alarm as to ill-effects of radium, tobacco, thalidomide and a number of other substances the industry doubled down and used propaganda. Even paying for fake tests.

And they have willing people like you doing their utmost to discredit someone like me who has suffered, is suffering and sees the suffering of others.

[alancalverd]

No, they are stressed because, instead of conducting a simple scientific investigation, you stressed them at a stressful time.

There's no point in waiting for a phone company to conduct a double blind test - you wouldn't accept the result anyway. If you want to make a point, you have to do the test yourself. What are you scared of?

When people noticed the ill effects of radium, experts formed the International Commission on Radiation Protection, whose recommendations  are accepted in all national legislatures and have prevented the  occurrence of acute effects and reduced the occurence of latent effects to "indistinguishable" in workers and the public. But you don't like International Commissions, so you ignore the truth and pretend that "the industry used propaganda".

[Bored chemist]

No sympathy for a family that is NOW stressed becase they know their house has biologically dangerous levels of radiation.

No.
Now stressed because they were led astray by someone stupid enough to think that the life expectancy in Stockholm is 3 years.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Do you not find it strange that the cell companies are not willing to participate in such tests?

No.
No competent journal would publish a report  with such a glaring conflict of interest itf they could possibly help it.

What improvement would the involvement of a telecom company bring?

What double blind tests? Give me two or three

Again?
OK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity

No other reason for contempt of court to turn on our tower and sicken me. They knew it would likely make me late in a court filing.

Did it occur to you that
(1) there's a clear reason to turn it on; they didn't build it as a Christmas tree; they built it to use it.
(2) thinking they did it to influence you is evidence of paranoia.

[Bored chemist]

Do you not find it strange that the cell companies are not willing to participate in such tests?

industry doubled down and used propaganda. Even paying for fake tests.

Damned if they do; damned if they don't.

[CliveG]

No, they are stressed because, instead of conducting a simple scientific investigation, you stressed them at a stressful time.

There's no point in waiting for a phone company to conduct a double blind test - you wouldn't accept the result anyway. If you want to make a point, you have to do the test yourself. What are you scared of?

When people noticed the ill effects of radium, experts formed the International Commission on Radiation Protection, whose recommendations  are accepted in all national legislatures and have prevented the  occurrence of acute effects and reduced the occurence of latent effects to "indistinguishable" in workers and the public. But you don't like International Commissions, so you ignore the truth and pretend that "the industry used propaganda".

Your extreme bias is very apparent. The sequence of events. Man notices a tower being installed. Calls me to take a pre-power on reading. I say I will do it this Friday (tomorrow). Man calls me. Says wife had a seizure. Say they then checked the tower and it was humming. I arrive and they ask me if towers can cause seizures. I measure and it is worse than their fears. I also tell them that is seems that it can cause seizures.

That such companies use propaganda and dirty tricks is well established and documented.

Read the true story of radium and you will see how long it took because the company paid for studies which showed it to be harmless. They even spread lies that the women who were sick had venereal disease. I cannot believe you are even defending the radium industry whose greed was finally exposed after it was too late for many woman who were left disfigured or dead as a result. They even encouraged the women to lick the pens to get a sharper point. Do you do any real research or do you only look at the articles that affirm your point of view?

Wiki on Radium Girls
Plant worker Grace Fryer decided to sue, but it took two years for her to find a lawyer willing to take on U.S. Radium. Even after the women found a lawyer, the slow-moving courts held out for months. At their first appearance in court on January 1928, two women were bedridden and none of them could raise their arms to take an oath. A total of five factory workers – Grace Fryer, Edna Hussman, Katherine Schaub, and sisters Quinta McDonald and Albina Larice – dubbed the Radium Girls, joined the suit. The litigation and media sensation surrounding the case established legal precedents and triggered the enactment of regulations governing labor safety standards, including a baseline of "provable suffering".
buzzfeed.com/authorkatemoore/the-light-that-does-not-lie
That was because, at that time, a small amount of radium — such as the girls were handling — was believed to be beneficial to health: People drank radium water as a tonic, and one could buy cosmetics, butter, milk, and toothpaste laced with the wonder element. Newspapers reported its use would "add years to our lives!" But that belief was founded upon research conducted by the very same radium firms who had built their lucrative industry around it. They ignored all the danger signs; when asked, managers told the girls the substance would put roses in their cheeks.

The young women's employer, USRC, denied any responsibility for the deaths for almost two years. After suffering a downturn in business because of what they saw as "gossip" that wouldn’t go away, in 1924 they finally commissioned an expert to look into the rumored link between the dial-painting profession and the women’s deaths.

Unlike the company’s own research into radium’s beneficence, this study was independent, and when the expert confirmed the link between the radium and the women’s illnesses, the president of the firm was outraged. Instead of accepting the findings, he paid for new studies that published the opposite conclusion; he also lied to the Department of Labor, which had begun investigating, about the verdict of the original report. Publicly, he denounced the women as trying to "palm off" their illnesses on the firm and decried their attempts to get some financial help for their mounting medical bills.

When Catherine started her fight for justice, it was the mid-1930s: America was in the grip of the Great Depression. Catherine and her friends were shunned by their community for suing one of the few firms left standing.

allthatsinteresting.com/radium-girls
By 1924, when dozens of radium girls were sick or dead, an independent study – one that USRC didn’t pay for – established that radioactive paint is indeed hazardous when ingested. Outraged at the implications and financial ramifications of this study, USRC did something modern readers are familiar with from dealing with tobacco and big oil companies: they paid for another study that found what they wanted to find, that swallowing radioactive paint is good for you.
One suffered a total collapse of her vertebrae, as the radiation did to her spine what it had done to Maggie’s jaw. Others developed skin cancer, cataracts, throat cancer, and other symptoms of long-term radiation exposure, such as loose teeth and hair loss.
At the time, though radium was known to be acutely dangerous, nobody had any experience with radiation sickness. Mollie’s death had been attributed to syphilis, which the company gleefully cited after the accusations and lawsuits started rolling in.

...As expected, Mollie’s corpse showed no sign of syphilis, but it had clearly been mangled by radiation. Similar results came through for the other girls who had died, and eventually, the USRC was driven into ruin by the medical and court costs.

The sensitive people like me and other are the canaries in the coal mine. Modern technology speeds ahead at such a pace that if they are wrong the consequences are disastrous on a enormous scale. In the case of cell technology - global. There is always a silver lining. Massive population reduction and a reduction in global warming.

[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on 01/10/2019 08:47:54

    No other reason for contempt of court to turn on our tower and sicken me. They knew it would likely make me late in a court filing.

Did it occur to you that
(1) there's a clear reason to turn it on; they didn't build it as a Christmas tree; they built it to use it.
(2) thinking they did it to influence you is evidence of paranoia.

They were under court order to have the tower off. The reason I suspected they would do it such a thing was that they turned of the navigation lights although the court order allowed them on as a matter of safety. When they powered up the tower, they kept the lights off thinking we would not notice. My meter went from a reading of 2 to well over 2,000 during the time it was on. 36 hours. Even when they had a letter of demand within 12hours to turn it off, they still left it on knowing that they needed to sicken me to win their court battle.

The perjury and the lies and the whole modus operandi of the SA industry is not paranoia. BTW - Do you know how many people warned me about the industry here having me killed to get rid of the legal complaint? A lot. They have a bad reputation.

[CliveG]

Quote from: CliveG on 01/10/2019 08:56:16

    No sympathy for a family that is NOW stressed becase they know their house has biologically dangerous levels of radiation.

No.
Now stressed because they were led astray by someone stupid enough to think that the life expectancy in Stockholm is 3 years.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Strawman. Show where I said the life expectancy in Stockhom was 3 years. That post come from another person.

Calling me stupid now? Do you want to me to demonstrate my IQ by showing you an IQ test I have done? I was told that it was open ended and that no-one could complete it. I did, with 100% correct answers.

Is that how far you are willing to go to discredit  someone who is demonstrating that cell towers are harmful? Just like the industry you are.