[alancalverd]

As you say, the US radium court case was in 1928, the year that the ICRP was founded to investigate just such issues, and lay down the principles of radiation protection throughout industry.

[CliveG]

Low power studies with real antennae:

slt.co/Downloads/News/1086/Shinjyo%202014%20Significant%20Decrease%20of%20Clinical%20Symptoms%20after%20Mobile%20Phone%20Base%20Station%20Removal%20.pdf
In  several  cases,  significant  effects  on  the  inhabitants’ health  could  be proven.  The  health  of  these  inhabitants  was  shown  to  improve  after  the  removal  of the  antennas,  and  the  researchers  could  identify  no  other  factors  that  could  explain this  health  improvement.  These  examinations  and  interviews  suggest  that  there  are possible  adverse  health  effects  related  to  RF-EMF  exposure  among  people  living under mobile phone base stations

emfsa.co.za/news/cell-tower-health-effects/
In 2004, Wolf  and Wolf, investigated the rates of cancer versus distance from cell towers in small towns in Israel. He found the rate of cancer incidence was 129 cases per 10,000 persons per year in those living within 350 meters of a cell tower versus a rate of 16-31/10,000 in those living greater than 350 meters from the cell tower.

oem.bmj.com/content/63/5/307.abstract?ijkey=9ae18f97484bfbf95e6f8c3eb92b69fe356ef640&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
Distance from antennae was 24–600 m in the rural area and 20–250 m in the urban area. Average power density was slightly higher in the rural area (0.05 mW/m2) than in the urban area (0.02 mW/m2). Despite the influence of confounding variables, including fear of adverse effects from exposure to HF-EMF from the base station, there was a significant relation of some symptoms to measured power density; this was highest for headaches.

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.527.1036&rep=rep1&type=pdf
The measured level of RF radiation (power density) in the area was low; far below the current guidelines based on the thermal effects of RF exposure. We suggest, therefore, that the current guidelines be re-evaluated. The enormous short latency period; less than 2 years, indicates that if there is a real causal association between RF radiation emitted from the cell-phone base station and the cancer cases (which we strongly believe there is), then the RF radiation should have a very strong promoting effect on cancer at very low radiation.

There are enough of these studies to cause alarm (in those who are astute enough to read the signs).

[CliveG]

And another recent one. 2019.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28777669
The analyses of data from the exposed group (n = 40), residing within a perimeter of 80 m of mobile base stations, showed significantly (p < 0.0001) higher frequency of micronuclei when compared to the control group, residing 300 m away from the mobile base station/s. The analysis of various antioxidants in the plasma of exposed individuals revealed a significant attrition in glutathione (GSH) concentration (p < 0.01), activities of catalase (CAT) (p < 0.001) and superoxide dismutase (SOD) (p < 0.001) and rise in lipid peroxidation (LOO) when compared to controls.

[CliveG]

As you say, the US radium court case was in 1928, the year that the ICRP was founded to investigate just such issues, and lay down the principles of radiation protection throughout industry.

And what to they say? Or do they leave it to ICNIRP? The protection of the cell industry.

Microwaves were used in WW2 and resulted in people knowing about microwave sickness.

[Bored chemist]

And this quote:
The European REFLEX studies of 2004 clearly demonstrated that a mere 24-hour exposure to the 1.8 gigahertz (GHz), one of the lethal frequencies flowing through Stockholm Central, inflicts the same catastrophic damage to human DNA as 1600 chest X-rays.

Now, as Alan was kind enough to calculate foor us, "same catastrophic damage to human DNA as 1600 chest X-rays" each "mere 24-hour exposure " is loosely equivalent to dead in 3 years

1600 chest x-rays = 32 millisievert, or one abdominal CT scan with contrast. Repeated daily for 3 years would almost certainly be lethal. However the parameter "1.8 GHz" carries no information as to dose, and "catastrophic damage to human DNA" can be inflicted by one molecule of sodium chloride. The statement is meaningless.

It is, in effect, a change of units.


So, that's where you said "the life expectancy in Stockhom was 3 years".
You just weren't bright enough to realise that's what you said.

Calling me stupid now?

Yes.

Do you want to me to demonstrate my IQ by showing you an IQ test I have done?

Thanks, that's all the  proof we need.
(1) you are foolish enough to think IQ tests rule out stupidity and
(2) you think posting something on the web is proof that it's true.

I could post a picture of a Shakespeare manuscript and say I wrote it. What proof is there that an IQ test paper was yours?

[Bored chemist]

I had a look at the papers you referenced.
One I couldn't read without paying.
Two provided evidence of the correlation of poverty with (the inability to stop phone companies putting  up masts) and (increased risk to health)
Which is not news and not relevant.
The other gave evidence that the placebo effect is real.

I will leave you to work out which is which.

[alancalverd]

And what to they say? Or do they leave it to ICNIRP? The protection of the cell industry.

The underlying principles of ICRP recommendations are that exposure to ionising radiation at work and in the community must be limited so that (a) there are no deterministic effects (b) the incidence of stochastic effects among workers is comparable or with or better than the occupational hazards of a "safe industry" (effectively less than one attributable death per 20,000 man-years) (c) the limit for members of the public should be indistinguishable from variations in natural background (d) all exposures must be as low as reasonably practicable - limits are not targets.

ICNIRP follows these principles, though the "natural background" for microwaves is below any useful level.  Interestingly, natural sunlight at high altitudes exceeds ICNIRP recommendations for blue light exposure, but I'm sure skeptics would say that they are just in the pockets of the sunglasses industry.

[evan_au]

they then checked the tower and it was humming.

Some of the sound effects in the Star Wars franchise movie were taken from humming towers. Wind in the guy wires caused the humming.

I know that time is money, and the towers (and their adjacent electronic hut) are largely prefabricated. But if they erected the tower one day, I would be surprised if it were fully functional the very next day. Connection of electronics to antennas, power lines and optical fiber/microwave link might take another day (or a month, if power companies there are as well coordinated as they are here...).

How directional is your microwave detector?
- Can you actually identify the source of radiation?
- Can you measure the angle from different places and triangulate the source of radiation?
- I assume that you ensured that microwave ovens were not in use while you were measuring? (Including the neighbours?)

[alancalverd]

Microwaves were used in WW2 and resulted in people knowing about microwave sickness.

One of the best anecdotes concerned an American radar tech who had a trapdoor to a 15 cm waveguide in his hut "somewhere in England". Knowing that microwaves can induce temporary sterility, he charged his comrades $1 to dangle their private parts therein before fraternising with the natives. The results of his order of magnitude miscalculation (some might call it fraud) are called East Anglians of my generation.

[CliveG]

they then checked the tower and it was humming.

Some of the sound effects in the Star Wars franchise movie were taken from humming towers. Wind in the guy wires caused the humming.

I know that time is money, and the towers (and their adjacent electronic hut) are largely prefabricated. But if they erected the tower one day, I would be surprised if it were fully functional the very next day. Connection of electronics to antennas, power lines and optical fiber/microwave link might take another day (or a month, if power companies there are as well coordinated as they are here...).

How directional is your microwave detector?
- Can you actually identify the source of radiation?
- Can you measure the angle from different places and triangulate the source of radiation?
- I assume that you ensured that microwave ovens were not in use while you were measuring? (Including the neighbours?)

Walk up to the control box on the pavement and either feel it or listen to it. It vibrates - whatever you want to call the sound.

The directional meter is very directional. I can sniff out hidden WiFi devices or tell whose cell phone is transmitting.
Triangulate. No need. Walk round the tower and point at the antennae. The readings go from very strong to quite weak (reflections mostly). The further from the tower the weaker the signal. (This is not true of the narrow directional antennae which are low to medium close to the tower and where the power increases with distance - with about 300 meter being the peak on level open ground.)

For distant towers (further than 500 meters) then I can indeed triangulate to find them. Although reflection can be bothersome.

The meter has an audio to discern various sources. Microwave ovens have a steady hum but only give a strong signal if the seals are faulty. Phones and WiFi have clicking sounds. 3G and 4G have a distinctive variability in them.

BTW. I insist that people turn off their cell phones near me. The wifi falls off very quickly and is of no consequence if not in the same room.

Yor comment is true of the large tower such as the one next to us. However, they are installing thousands of lamp post type masts in a very short space of time. The foundations are installed one day, and a few days later it takes one day to drop in the mast and the control box, connect them and power them. They are modular with only some bolts and some connectors.

[CliveG]

And what to they say? Or do they leave it to ICNIRP? The protection of the cell industry.

The underlying principles of ICRP recommendations are that exposure to ionising radiation at work and in the community must be limited so that (a) there are no deterministic effects (b) the incidence of stochastic effects among workers is comparable or with or better than the occupational hazards of a "safe industry" (effectively less than one attributable death per 20,000 man-years) (c) the limit for members of the public should be indistinguishable from variations in natural background (d) all exposures must be as low as reasonably practicable - limits are not targets.

ICNIRP follows these principles, though the "natural background" for microwaves is below any useful level.  Interestingly, natural sunlight at high altitudes exceeds ICNIRP recommendations for blue light exposure, but I'm sure skeptics would say that they are just in the pockets of the sunglasses industry.

I have no argument with ICRP.

There are two things you seem to be overlooking. The many studies indicating harm that ICNIRP ignores. The many articles analyzing ICNIRP funding and operation to show it is an industry mouthpiece who insist on heating as the ONLY effect.

[CliveG]

Microwaves were used in WW2 and resulted in people knowing about microwave sickness.

One of the best anecdotes concerned an American radar tech who had a trapdoor to a 15 cm waveguide in his hut "somewhere in England". Knowing that microwaves can induce temporary sterility, he charged his comrades $1 to dangle their private parts therein before fraternising with the natives. The results of his order of magnitude miscalculation (some might call it fraud) are called East Anglians of my generation.

Smile. 

The key fact is "knowing it causes temporary sterility." Do you know how many sperm must be rendered ineffective? This is one area of study that shows that there is low level ongoing damage that eventually becomes problematic.

[CliveG]

I had a look at the papers you referenced.
One I couldn't read without paying.
Two provided evidence of the correlation of poverty with (the inability to stop phone companies putting  up masts) and (increased risk to health)
Which is not news and not relevant.
The other gave evidence that the placebo effect is real.

I will leave you to work out which is which.

Sigh. So many of your arguments seem foolish to me.

In trying to debate with you, I was reminded of a proverb about debating fools.

I came up with a few nice ones. Check those that might apply. I think A) is definitely applicable. B) might apply. I just happen to like C).

A) "You can never win an argument with a negative person. They only hear what suits them and listen only to respond."

B) "Never argue with a fool. You’ll never convince the fool that you’re correct, and bystanders won’t be able to tell who’s who."

C) "Arguing with fools is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to sh1t on the board and strut around like it won anyway."

You do realize how negative you are? Point me at thread where you made a positive contribution.

[Bored chemist]

The many studies indicating harm that ICNIRP ignores.

That's begging the question again.

"You can never win an argument with a negative person. They only hear what suits them and listen only to respond."

Yes.
That's why
You won't hear that you keep begging the question
You won't hear hat the data saying electrosensitivity isn't real.
You won't hear the point that you tried to pretend that people in Stockholm only live 3 years.

"Never argue with a fool. You’ll never convince the fool that you’re correct, and bystanders won’t be able to tell who’s who."

I'm pretty sure the bystanders on this page can tell the difference.
Especially when you say things like this

. No other reason for contempt of court to turn on our tower and sicken me. They knew it would likely make me late in a court filing.

How did you come to the conclusion that they didn't build the mast so they could use it?
That looks to me like paranoid rambling.

"Arguing with fools is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to sh1t on the board and strut around like it won anyway."

As I keep saying, get a mirror.
Have you not noticed that absolutely nobody here agrees with you? You are the pigeon.

Point me at thread where you made a positive contribution.

This one.
Pointing out your mistakes raises the quality of the site and that's a positive contribution.

Now, back to the mirror.
What positive contributions have you made?

[CliveG]

There is currently a silent health crisis in Johannesburg. It correlates to the increase in cell tower installations. Bored Chemist and others would point out that correlation does not mean cause. It could however be the cause and once more I could be proven right.

Yesterday, the 60 year partner of a relative died of a heart attack. The 40 year old partner of another relative is in the final stages of cancer. I am just hearing about cancer deaths in middle-aged people that should not be happening.

Our gardener came to work on Friday. He was coughing and clearly sick. I sent him home. His chest infection that he had a week ago had worsened. This is the fourth or fifth chest infection this year. And they last weeks.

On Saturday a worker I employ to help me at the house coughed. He said it only bothered him at night. He asked to borrow money because he had to take his daughter to a private hospital because she was so sick with a chest infection. His wife is unable to work because of chest infection. He says that it is rife in the community. This is again a repeat of a number of infections this year.

My wife was sick for 4 weeks, as were a number of friends. I was sick for only three days this year.

My wife's business employs 12 workers. Up to the end of 2017, the usual sick days typically amounts to about about 2 or 3 for the year for the entire staff. In 2018, nearly everyone had taken a lot of sick leave. This year it is worse. Not only are the workers taking sick leave for themselves but taking time off to take family to hospital.

There are no scientific studies or even news articles. So this will be dismissed as anecdotal and unscientific. However, it is happening, and it fits my theory that cell microwave will slowly kill off masses of the population before people realize the cause.

And the posters on this site are helping to promote that die off by promoting the myth of safety. Which people WANT to believe. It will be accompanied by tremendous social upheaval. This is both a scientific and an intuitive (psychic?) prediction.

Yesterday (Saturday) I mounted reflective mesh screens on our tenants windows. This meant working in the high radiation areas now and then. I did not think my exposure was excessive but in mid-afternoon I had severe stomach pains which are only now dissipating. And it set my right knee joint back with inflammation and pain that had almost disappeared. My skin there felt raw and burning. It is consistent. Work in high radiation - get pains and/or diarrhea.

[CliveG]

I should add that many pandemics have secondary fatal effects as systems break down. Deaths to fire, starvation and lack of medical care mount as systems fail.

The questions one can ask is "Will I survive? Who will survive with me? What can I do to protect myself and my loved ones?"

Need I say that religion goes through a serious growth phase, and people on the fringes of society take blame for bringing down the disaster upon humankind.

Will social media on cell phones play a role?

@Bored chemist - keep pooping on the thread. No need to tell you to strut. I was a bit concerned about you taking offense but it seems your ego knows no bounds. Blame others (me).

BTW - Can I beg you to stop telling me I am begging the question. You should add IMO after some of my comments.

[CliveG]

I came across this article. Too relevant not to post it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/low-tar-cigarettes/481116/

In a landmark ruling nearly a decade ago, a federal judge ordered tobacco companies to stop lying.

After listening to 84 witnesses and perusing tens of thousands of exhibits, U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler of the District of Columbia took a year to write a 1,652-page opinion detailing the companies’ elaborate strategy to deny the harmful effects of smoking.

“In short, [the companies] have marketed and sold their lethal product with zeal, with deception, with a single-minded focus on their financial success, and without regard for the human tragedy or social costs that success exacted,” Kessler wrote in United States of America v. Philip Morris USA.

Kessler noted that the Justice Department, in a racketeering lawsuit, had presented “overwhelming evidence” of a conspiracy to defraud the public. She ordered the companies to take a number of actions, including ceasing to claim there was such a thing as a low-tar cigarette that reduced the risk of disease. The evidence showed this simply was not true.

Yet in about a dozen pending lawsuits, Philip Morris continues to do just that. As of 2010, it still routinely argued that the nation’s top-selling cigarette, once known as Marlboro Lights and now called Marlboro Gold, reduces the risk of cancer.

...The irony in this arrangement is that the tobacco industry pioneered such tactics. “The tobacco industry wrote the playbook for the rest of the industries,” said Matt Myers, president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids. “Whether it’s the chemical industry, whether its climate change … You see it in industry after industry.”

[evan_au]

chest infection. He says that it is rife in the community...There are no scientific studies or even news articles.

Australia and South Africa are just coming out of our winter flu season... and it is covered in the news:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/health/flu-australia-america.html

many pandemics have secondary fatal effects as systems break down. Deaths to fire, starvation and lack of medical care mount as systems fail.

If you want to see the effects of a severe pandemic, it is now the centenary of the 1918-1920 "Spanish Flu" (which actually originated in the USA).
- This killed more people than the bullets, bombs and poison gas of World War 1.
- This was before the invention of cellular mobile
- It was around the start of AM radio broadcasts (although I'm not aware of any causal link).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

So to the crucial question: Did you and your family and friends get a flu injection this year?
- This has a known effectiveness against a known and quite significant risk (and they don't claim 100% protection!)
- As compared to mobile tower effects, which are known to have an effect which is extremely small, if not zero (it is lost in the background noise of an aging population, subject to declining immune system effectiveness, and increasing heart, lung, joint, digestive and circulatory problems)

[Bored chemist]

There is currently a silent health crisis in Johannesburg.

So silent that nobody knows about it?

I am just hearing about cancer deaths in middle-aged people that should not be happening.

Who says they "shouldn't be happening"?


If you are right it should be easy to check.
Get hold of the obituaries pages of the local newspapers for a year or two and simply count the deaths.

Come back when you have objective evidence.

BTW - Can I beg you to stop telling me I am begging the question.

Yes, you can beg.
That won't work.
If you want me to stop pointing out that you are begging the question just stop begging the question. It's not as if repeated logical fallacies add to the thread or to your reputation.

Now, back to the mirror.
What positive contributions have you made?

[CliveG]

 To Bored Chemist.

This morning's Dilbert seems appropriate.

Bald guy with goatee: I hear what you are saying and I disagree.
Dilbert: Because...?
BGWG: Because what?
Dibert: Do you have any reason for your disagreement?
BGWG: No. I am a lifestyle disagreer. I disagree with everyone all the time. The reasons are irrelevant.
Dilbert: You sound smart.
BGWG: No. I am not smart.
Dilbert: And you are attractive too.
BGWG: No. I am ugl... Okay, I see what you are doing.

You are surely smart enough to get my drift?

The person who died of a heart attack had been hospitalized with pneumonia. Chest infection was the primary cause.

My right knee is painful in the joint and the surrounding muscles. It is hot with inflammation. And this after three weeks of being free of inflammation and pain. I am amazed at how little exposure is needed at biologically high rates. Direct radiation of about 3,000 uW/sqm plus reflections from the wall and roof of our house (with it's reflective foil inside).

Begging not to beg the question: Please, please, please. Pretty please. Take pity on me. Am I not suffering enough?

Positive Contributions on this forum. I have presented this forum with a number of arguments, anecdotal evidence, reason, scientific articles and other relevant articles. Enough for thinking people to have some concerns. Your many one-line pronouncements of your personal opinion are not positive arguments.