[CliveG]

How about these studies on headaches - the symptom I will be using in my box experiment:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5626766/pdf/41598_2017_Article_12802.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18044740

Here is an older one about neural interference.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12350439/

Here is one about exposure time and brain chemical effects:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305688961_Effect_of_Exposure_to_Electromagnetic_Fields_Emfs_on_Monoamine_Neurotransmitters_of_Newborn_Rats

A person I am in contact with who is having problems from EMFs and a nearby tower claims that she is able to distinguish the difference between 2G, 3G and 4G signals. One does not have much of an effect, so apparently the choice of system in experiments is important.

[CliveG]

When I did some tests at the home of a the sensitive woman I met today, she put her phone on airplane mode and took some videos. The meter picked up signals coming from her phone, so I asked her to move to the side. The audio on the meter gave a ticking sound. The meter is directional and only when she was very close would it still pick up her phone signal.

I told this to my wife. My wife said to me that she cannot sleep with the phone on airplane mode next the bed because it gave her an unusual feeling in her head. She felt the phone was not completely free of radiation on airplane mode. I tested my phone and if the Wifi was on, while airplane mode was on, I got pulses every now and then. I will test her phone because I suspect different models may behave differently.

[Bored chemist]

"bandying words with @Bored chemist" - getting me/us nowhere

Yes. it's a fine description.
Why don't you stop wasting time repeating the same unfounded assertion and circular reasoning?
Essentially, your claim is
"I get ill because of  phone towers".
And when somebody asks what evidence there is that phone towers can cause illness your reply is "I get ill because of  phone towers".


Do you not see that you are employing circular reasoning.
And once we add psychosomatic effects (and a sensible understanding of statistics) there really is no case to answer.

You are making yourself (and possibly others) ill

[alancalverd]

Some of the studies in #560 are interesting but they relate to very high field intensities from handsets, pretty much as expected. If I have my phone in my shirt pocket when driving, I am often aware that it is about to ring, but if it is on the passenger seat, no such phenomenon. Not an audio signal, as it is always bluetoothed to the radio, but "something" in the brain when the signal intensity is high enough.

"Flight mode" switches off the intentional RF transmission (the bit Clive is worried about) but the computer and screen driver continue to work, which produces a lot of low-level RF noise. It will interfere with an AM radio at close range.  It's tolerable for passenger use in an airliner but the rule for flight crew is to switch off completely to prevent interference with AM NAV and COM systems. The bigger the phone, the worse the interference, so beware of i-phones and the like.

[Colin2B]

If I have my phone in my shirt pocket when driving, I am often aware that it is about to ring,

I would have thought any stimulation near a nipple might bring on a feeling of anticipation. Does it happen in other pockets?

[alancalverd]

Never mind anticipation - I live in constant hope!

Now for the science. For some reason I always put the phone in my left breast pocket. Next thing to try is the right pocket (I wear uniform shirts most days) and see if the stimulus is to the heart muscle, which would be less affected.

[CliveG]

Some of the studies in #560 are interesting but they relate to very high field intensities from handsets, pretty much as expected. If I have my phone in my shirt pocket when driving, I am often aware that it is about to ring, but if it is on the passenger seat, no such phenomenon. Not an audio signal, as it is always bluetoothed to the radio, but "something" in the brain when the signal intensity is high enough.

"Flight mode" switches off the intentional RF transmission (the bit Clive is worried about) but the computer and screen driver continue to work, which produces a lot of low-level RF noise. It will interfere with an AM radio at close range.  It's tolerable for passenger use in an airliner but the rule for flight crew is to switch off completely to prevent interference with AM NAV and COM systems. The bigger the phone, the worse the interference, so beware of i-phones and the like.

When I questioned (read "interrogated") my wife about what the feeling in her head was she struggled to describe it. Then she got annoyed and just said "It was a while ago. I just know it was unpleasant and so I put my phone in the kitchen."

You also describe "something in your head". When I tested a cell phone making a call, the radiation was at maximum before the ringing. Then quite low during the ringing and the call. When the call was ended, the radiation jumped high for a while. I was in a hurry to go, so I will have to do some more tests.

Phones have improved and with short distances the radiated power hazard from phones may decrease which may be offset by increased usage. But the proliferation of towers and the electronic smog is likely to increase dramatically. What is the effect of non-stop emfs on humans and other life? There is certainly many more peaks as the signals combine, and these are the problem signals.

Anyhow, my open letter to the Chief Justice and the media may have resulted in behind the scene improvements. I got a hard-nosed costs taxing woman who was unhappy with the non-joinder of the the Telco and was openly hostile about tower radiation. She asked the female attorney if she had children and how she would feel about health issues due to towers. She said she had to put her personal feelings aside and make decisions according to rule. She is combining the Tower costs with the Telco costs. The Tower costs are one-fifth of the Telco costs - for the same work. I think there is some behind the scenes damage control.

The tower lawyers tried to dismiss my appeal of my first attempt at an injunction by claiming I was in the wrong forum. I had to correct them and the court agreed. They cannot dismiss a legal action by letter, only by arguing at a hearing.

All of that said, I have a large number of commitments. I have to prepare our house for sale. The gate motor broke down beyond a reasonable repair, and removing the old one was a mammoth task with all the welding to stop theft. Gate motor theft is a thriving ethnic shopping enterprise. The factory security alarm got its memory messed up with the constant loss of power.

I will be leaving the board of our residents association. Past corruption and present politics and money on  local level. I also have to travel 8 hours to a court to communicate with them about getting Letters of Executorship for my aunts estate. After 4 month of constant attempts, I only been able to get one phone call answered and one response (so confused) by email. The governmental systems are collapsing as people are appointed who do not work and are not able to get things done.

We also have a holiday in the game park coming up soon. No radiation. Cell phones do not work in the park. And turn off the wifi in the room.

So I guess I will have to just wait until I have some time for experiments. And everyone seems to be on a treadmill to make money and survive.

End times are either here and now, or arriving soon.

[Bored chemist]

Too many symptoms that are not vague,

When I questioned (read "interrogated") my wife about what the feeling in her head was she struggled to describe it.

my open letter to the Chief Justice and the media may have resulted in behind the scene improvements.

End times are either here and now, or arriving soon.

You really need to work on keeping your story consistent.

[CliveG]

If there is updated information I will take the time to share it.

Yesterday I went to buy paint. The manager asked me why I needed the paint. This led to me telling him we were selling to move away from a cell tower.He asked what the symptoms were and I listed them starting with tinnitus.

When I finished he remarked on the them and then suddenly said, "Now I know what caused my tinnitus when I moved from one suburb to the other. I complained to my wife about the terrible tinnitus I got. She did not have it. The problem went away when we moved again. The first move was close to shopping center with a big tower disguised as a fir tree. That must have caused the tinnitus."

This is interesting. He had no prior knowledge that towers can cause tinnitus so one can rule out suggestion (well, most of us would rule out suggestibility).  The second fact is that the tinnitus disappeared. This rules out damaged ear hair cells which would not regenerate. The question is - What is the mechanism if we have ruled out the Frey effect? Are the microwaves disturbing the nerves? And the last bit of information is that not everyone gets the same effects.

Alan says he senses something. This implies that the cell microwave is capable of affecting cells and/or nerves. A disturbed cell communicates with other cells and nerves in various ways. A tower with 24/7 disturbance of cells would negatively impact the body causing stress, and stress causes physical medical symptoms.

Yesterday, I worked on the gate but took time out to join the family by the pool. At first, I sat on the porch with my head shield on with a shade hat over it. I then took off my hat and shield and joined them at the pool. This is direct line of sight of the tower and in the high radiation area. After 20 minutes, I noticed that I was getting a headache. So I am encouraged to do my box tests soon although I dread the headaches and other issues.

[alancalverd]

Alan says he senses something. This implies that the cell microwave is capable of affecting cells and/or nerves.

  But only at the signal intensity of a handset, not a tower.

Pity you mentioned tinnitus to the paint salesman. If he had brought it up first, the conversation might have been interesting, but as it happened, it can be dismissed as yet another case of internet hypochondria (previously known as Black's Disease, brought on by reading Black's Medical Dictionary). However the good news is that you have another symptomatic and sympathetic subject for your blind test.

If you carry out the test as Colin suggested here, using a source controlled by an experimenter rather than the random emissions of a tower, you won't suffer harm or discomfort because you can report the onset of symptoms and your experimenter can turn off the power immediately or after a few minutes - assuming it was on to begin with - and note the correlated disappearance of symptoms. It's a neat inversion of Milgram's classic experiment!

[Bored chemist]

The problem went away when we moved again.

Did  he move to a place with no cell phone coverage?

This implies that the cell microwave is capable of affecting cells and/or nerves.

At a high enough power, that fact was never in dispute.
Why raise it?

The second fact is that the tinnitus disappeared.

If you ask most people about "ringing in the ears" they will say that, yes- they know what you mean, but they are not currently experiencing it.
It's a more  or less characteristic aspect of the condition that it comes + goes. Stress is a common trigger; moving house is stressful.

So, what you are seeing as some sort of supporting evidence for your idea about phone masts has actually existed since well before there were any mobile phones.

That's an indication that you are not looking at this  objectively, isn't it?

[alancalverd]

That's an indication that you are not looking at this  objectively, isn't it?

An unreasonable expectation, surely? Psychosomatic, hallucinatory, or an obviously broken leg, the patient can never be objective. That's where empathy comes in.

[CliveG]

Alan says he senses something. This implies that the cell microwave is capable of affecting cells and/or nerves.

  But only at the signal intensity of a handset, not a tower.

Pity you mentioned tinnitus to the paint salesman. If he had brought it up first, the conversation might have been interesting, but as it happened, it can be dismissed as yet another case of internet hypochondria (previously known as Black's Disease, brought on by reading Black's Medical Dictionary). However the good news is that you have another symptomatic and sympathetic subject for your blind test.

If you carry out the test as Colin suggested here, using a source controlled by an experimenter rather than the random emissions of a tower, you won't suffer harm or discomfort because you can report the onset of symptoms and your experimenter can turn off the power immediately or after a few minutes - assuming it was on to begin with - and note the correlated disappearance of symptoms. It's a neat inversion of Milgram's classic experiment!

What you seem to have trouble grasping is the slow onset and the slow recovery. That is why many tests fail. They expect the person being studied to give an immediate reaction. By the time I feel pain or discomfort I have been damaging my body. Imagine doing the experiment with some toxic substance that is slow? Or even ionizing radiation - by the time the skin start to pain there is widespread damage.

Here was a man puzzled by why his symptoms only appeared when he stayed in another house. Presumably for at least a year. And why they disappeared when he moved once more.

My mention of tinnitus due to a tower caused the "penny to drop". I am not claiming proof, but one has to start to wonder. I was not going to interrogate and cross-examine him. I simply took it at face value. You have your own theories - mostly predicated on a your default position that there is a lack of effect and a lack of harm from emfs.

I am worried about our dogs once more. They lie and sleep the whole day. Only twice did they bark at passing people. Normally I struggle to get them to stop. The black dog ate a mouthful and went to lie down. Yesterday the brown dog bit my wife's son while he was holding the grandson in the pool. I heard the commotion and came over.

After he told me what happened I asked him "Why do you think the dog bit you?" He looked taken aback and said "Because I felt the pain of his teeth and I have the marks!" Talk about misunderstanding. Did he think I was going to claim that it was just his imagination and that our dogs would never bite anyone? I had to rephrase "What do you think the dog thinking? What motivated the dogs to bite you?"

I am worried. The dogs are showing signs of confusion and severe depression. I hand them a biscuit in the morning and instead of the usual happiness they used to show, the black dog takes it reluctantly and shuffles off, and the brown dog sometimes backs off as if it fears me.

[Bored chemist]

I was not going to interrogate and cross-examine him. I simply took it at face value.

Nobody said you should, and no you did not.

A man had a condition that typically comes and goes.
It came and went.
The "face value" of this (and of his interpretation of it is "so what?".
You posted it here, portraying it as evidence of something.

[alancalverd]

the brown dog sometimes backs off as if it fears me.

That's worrying. Sick dogs generally stay closer to their humans. Dogs are very sensitive to human body language. Time for a deep breath and a little self-contemplation.   

[CliveG]

the brown dog sometimes backs off as if it fears me.

That's worrying. Sick dogs generally stay closer to their humans. Dogs are very sensitive to human body language. Time for a deep breath and a little self-contemplation.

A deep breath for me at the moment is a problem. I think I broke or dislocated the lowest left rib while replacing the gate motor. On Friday, I lay on a plastic step-stool with a pillow, slid off the pillow and my lower left side pressed hard against the edge of the step-stool. I felt a painful grinding. When I lie down, there is a hollow where the rib should be (compared to the other side). I will see the doctor. My generalized pain has returned with me spending so much time at the house. I will remain off the pain tablets although I took two on Saturday. I broke three ribs on the lower left side playing softball in the USA, and I know the pain. Then it was so bad I could hardly breathe.

The dogs used to have a routine for various things. Greeting us and feeding times for example. They now seem confused and listless. I agree they could be sensing stress in us. The black dog now comes into the house to get petted and rubbed. Sensitive works two ways. My instinct for sick dogs is quite good. I have predicted when they are about to die when others have said the dog is fine. Whatever the cause - our house has been a problem since the tower was put in.

[Bored chemist]

Whatever the cause - our house has been a problem since the tower was put in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

[CliveG]

Whatever the cause - our house has been a problem since the tower was put in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

I am going to answer you because your response prompted me to read this on your link:

Greek historiography provides a famous variant: when the Lydian king Croesus asked the Delphic Oracle if he should invade Persia, the response came that if he did, he would destroy a great kingdom. Assuming this meant he would succeed, he attacked—but the kingdom he destroyed was his own. In such an example, the prophecy prompts someone to action because he is led to expect a favorable result; but he achieves another, disastrous result which nonetheless fulfills the prophecy.

My longest owned item is a pack of Tarot cards. It always seems to stay with me despite the many moves and sell-offs. I started them out of curiosity and only refer to them now and then. It is surprising how many people are prepared to take the advice they give despite my disclaimer that I am just showing them how they work. I have found them to be remarkably accurate, and have learned to ignore them at my peril.

There were a few memorable times they were wrong (one remember the failures because they are unusual). What I found was that the advice given was not "what people want but what they need". The advice causes them to follow a course of action that they may not have otherwise taken. There were occasions when it seemed the advice was wrong. But that was a short-term view. The long-term was indeed correct and would not have been arrived at if the short-term "bad" course was not followed.

Three times I wondered about the answer and repeated the question and got the same answer even with multiple repeats. I do not want to "challenge" the accuracy and only did this by impulse on those occasions.

I had no "prophesy" or expectation of illness or symptoms at the beginning of the tower installation. I did think that if there were going to be problems that older people and people with medical issues would possibly be subject to harm. I also thought the tower would radiate over us and we would be in a low radiation area. I also had no idea that I would have so many problems. Nor did my wife and nor sis the other neighbors. And I did not consult the Tarot cards to ask them.

You expect my symptoms to be psychosomatic and so you fit my situation to your expectations. It must be psychosomatic you say. So there had to be an expectation on my part for your assumption to be correct. And so you postulate an expectation. You are wrong. Therefore - no self-fulfilling prophecy.

And if you think that using Tarot cards is an indication of suggestibility, you are again wrong in that assumption. I explore and investigate everything. I want to experiment for myself to learn not only the techniques and methods but the associated "feelings". Why should I stick to "conventional" sciences? Do they know the meaning of life? I learned to be slightly skeptical, and participate, observe and analyze. Too much skepticism does indeed give you a self-fulfilling prophecy in areas of human mysticism and consciousness.

[alancalverd]

Do they know the meaning of life?

There isn't one, apart from the literal "common quality of things considered to be living".

[CliveG]

Do they know the meaning of life?

There isn't one, apart from the literal "common quality of things considered to be living".

How about the concept that only entity that truly "exists" is an almost infinite (no time and no space so the word has not true meaning) intelligence without shape or form. It is bored and "we" are part of a "dream" to entertain the entity. The dream is like a virtual reality video game and follows "rules" like the laws of physics, but these can be broken such as when miracles occur. To up the level of interest the following have been added to the game - God, Satan and the Spirit World. Those who understand how the rules for those work have an advantage. The purpose of life is to evolve and to learn. Those who evolve well have an advantage.

The "dream" can be terminated at any time. It can be restarted, or it can be rewound to improve the design by tweaking evolution to get a desired outcome. At the moment it seems humankind is about to self-terminate. Does God have the power to intervene and prevent this? Yes, but a more interesting scenario is for God to let humankind limit itself. It is my opinion (intuition or whatever) that cell microwaves will cause a huge decline in immune systems and then various diseases and medical conditions will eliminate a major portion of the humankind and achieve balance.

And who will survive? Those either smart enough to realize what is happening - and possibly those who God gives a slight edge. In such times, religion and the meaning of life will become key forces and leaders will emerge for both good and bad. Interesting times ahead.

Hopefully the remaining society is better adapted to collective efforts to live sustainably and are also more spiritual and not greedy and materialistic. Do I have proof? No, or course not. But do I have experience? I claim to - and it is rational and logical. Whether people believe is a matter of choice.

This is a slight deviation from "strict" science. My point is that people will not give up their cell phones just as they will not limit their own population growth. What an irony that although the solutions are self-evident, humankind cannot make the logical choices. Great entertainment for the Ultimate Entity.