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  4. why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
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why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #300 on: 14/06/2023 14:56:52 »
If the string behind the flexible post is in line with the string in front of it, will it still be called diffraction?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #301 on: 14/06/2023 23:15:01 »
Why not?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #302 on: 15/06/2023 03:33:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/06/2023 23:15:01
Why not?
Because we need to use definition of words consistently, or at least explicitly, in order to avoid miscommunication.

Quote from: alancalverd on 11/06/2023 18:01:26
It can't diffract because it is constrained to travel along the length of the string. If you "bend" the string around a rigid fixture, the wave may reflect from the fixture but won't go around it, but if you bend the string with a flexible post, the attenuated wave will travel beyond the post.

So what?   
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #303 on: 15/06/2023 13:13:32 »
Exactly.  "Flexible" has its usual meaning, and "bend" is in inverted commas for a good reason - I didn't specify any angle.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #304 on: 16/06/2023 15:31:16 »
Do you agree that perfect reflectors can avoid diffraction?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #305 on: 17/06/2023 00:09:16 »
By definition, a perfect reflector is one for which the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection for all wavelengths, which is obviously not the case for diffraction.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #306 on: 09/12/2023 15:44:49 »
After a while, I asked Google Bard again about the difference between diffraction and interference. This time I specifically mentioned light.

What's the difference between diffraction and interference of light?
Quote

While both diffraction and interference are phenomena related to light waves, they have key differences in their origin and characteristics.

Diffraction:

Cause: Occurs when a light wave encounters an obstacle or opening.
Mechanism: The edges of the obstacle or opening act as sources of secondary wavelets, which spread out and interfere with each other.
Pattern: The resulting pattern consists of bright and dark bands, with the intensity and width of the bands varying depending on the size and shape of the obstacle.
Examples: Rainbows, the diffraction pattern of a single slit or double slit, and the formation of Fresnel zones.

Interference:

Cause: Occurs when two or more coherent light waves overlap.
Mechanism: The crests and troughs of the waves combine, leading to constructive interference (where the amplitudes add up) and destructive interference (where the amplitudes cancel out).
Pattern: The resulting pattern consists of alternating bright and dark bands with equal widths and high contrast.
Examples: Young's double-slit experiment, thin-film interference in soap bubbles and oil slicks, and the formation of Newton's rings.
It doesn't seem to improve much from the last time I asked. Bard's alternative answers don't give much better answers.
« Last Edit: 09/12/2023 16:05:25 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #307 on: 09/12/2023 17:35:53 »
It's all perfectly true, if a bit simplistic. What's your problem?
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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #308 on: 09/12/2023 18:49:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/12/2023 15:44:49
It doesn't seem to improve much from the last time I asked. Bard's alternative answers don't give much better answers.
Wow, it's almost like Bard is just a chat bot, I wonder why that is?

In answer to the OP, I would say the problem is 'a lot of people' don't care enough to take the time to find out the difference or they have reading comprehension issues.
« Last Edit: 09/12/2023 18:53:10 by Origin »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #309 on: 10/12/2023 11:45:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 09/12/2023 17:35:53
It's all perfectly true, if a bit simplistic. What's your problem?
It's a bit surprising that you can't find the problems in Bard's answer above.

The resulting pattern consisting of bright and dark bands is the defining characteristics of interference. Diffraction without interference doesn't produce such patterns.

It says "the intensity and width of the bands varying depending on the size and shape of the obstacle."  That's also characteristics of interference.

Rainbow isn't generally said to be a result of diffraction. It's a result of dispersion.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2023 11:57:14 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #310 on: 10/12/2023 12:22:02 »
When specifically asked to describe the difference between two phenomena, it should mention examples which can emphasize the difference, instead of mixing them up. It should mention some examples involving one phenomenon which doesn't involve the other at the same timetime, like knife edge diffraction and thin film interference.
Single and double slit diffraction/interference involve both phenomena at once, thus aren't that useful to explain the difference between them.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2023 13:02:42 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #311 on: 10/12/2023 13:13:10 »
Mechanism for interference is good.

But the cause is incomplete. The light sources need to have the same frequency and polarization.

The pattern is misleading. The width of the bands don't have to be equal, and the contrast don't always high, which is not well defined anyway.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2023 13:34:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #312 on: 10/12/2023 13:46:51 »
Quote from: Origin on 09/12/2023 18:49:12
Wow, it's almost like Bard is just a chat bot, I wonder why that is?
The model I used is still in experimental phase, which is expected to be improved over time, before it's released for public use. It's expected/prepared to be a study companion to students thus it should be reliably accurate to avoid unnecessary confusion.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #313 on: 10/12/2023 13:49:49 »
Quote from: Origin on 09/12/2023 18:49:12
In answer to the OP, I would say the problem is 'a lot of people' don't care enough to take the time to find out the difference or they have reading comprehension issues.
IMO, misleading online sources also played significant role here.
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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #314 on: 10/12/2023 15:01:17 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/12/2023 13:49:49
IMO, misleading online sources also played significant role here.
Sources are easy enough to check.  An easy way to check if something on the Internet is science or not is to go to a university site and see if they are teaching that 'something'.
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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #315 on: 10/12/2023 19:00:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/12/2023 11:45:04
Diffraction without interference doesn't produce such patterns.
Look at an x-ray diffraction pattern.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #316 on: 11/12/2023 12:11:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/12/2023 19:00:30
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/12/2023 11:45:04
Diffraction without interference doesn't produce such patterns.
Look at an x-ray diffraction pattern.
It involves interference. There are more than one edges contributing to the resulting pattern.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #317 on: 11/12/2023 12:18:02 »
Quote from: Origin on 10/12/2023 15:01:17
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/12/2023 13:49:49
IMO, misleading online sources also played significant role here.
Sources are easy enough to check.  An easy way to check if something on the Internet is science or not is to go to a university site and see if they are teaching that 'something'.

Though practical, we need to be aware of its limitations.
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam (argument against shame), is a form of argument in which the mere fact that an influential figure holds a certain position is used as evidence that the position itself is correct.[1] While it is not a valid form of logical proof,[1] it is a practical and sound way of obtaining knowledge that is generally likely to be correct when the authority is real, pertinent, and universally accepted.

This argument has been considered a logical fallacy since its introduction by John Locke and Richard Whately.[4] In particular, this is a form of genetic fallacy; in which the conclusion about the validity of a statement is justified by appealing to the characteristics of the person who is speaking, such as in the ad hominem fallacy.[5] For this argument, Locke coined the term argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to shamefacedness/modesty) because it appeals to the fear of humiliation by appearing disrespectful to a particular authority.[6]

This qualification as a logical fallacy implies that this argument is invalid when using the deductive method, and therefore it can't be presented as infallible.[7] In other words, it's logically invalid to prove a claim is true because an authority has said it. The explanation is simple: authorities can be wrong, and the only way of logically proving a claim is providing real evidence and/or a valid logical deduction of the claim from the evidence.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #318 on: 20/02/2024 11:57:38 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/12/2023 15:44:49
After a while, I asked Google Bard again about the difference between diffraction and interference. This time I specifically mentioned light.

What's the difference between diffraction and interference of light?
Quote

While both diffraction and interference are phenomena related to light waves, they have key differences in their origin and characteristics.

Diffraction:

Cause: Occurs when a light wave encounters an obstacle or opening.
Mechanism: The edges of the obstacle or opening act as sources of secondary wavelets, which spread out and interfere with each other.
Pattern: The resulting pattern consists of bright and dark bands, with the intensity and width of the bands varying depending on the size and shape of the obstacle.
Examples: Rainbows, the diffraction pattern of a single slit or double slit, and the formation of Fresnel zones.

Interference:

Cause: Occurs when two or more coherent light waves overlap.
Mechanism: The crests and troughs of the waves combine, leading to constructive interference (where the amplitudes add up) and destructive interference (where the amplitudes cancel out).
Pattern: The resulting pattern consists of alternating bright and dark bands with equal widths and high contrast.
Examples: Young's double-slit experiment, thin-film interference in soap bubbles and oil slicks, and the formation of Newton's rings.
It doesn't seem to improve much from the last time I asked. Bard's alternative answers don't give much better answers.
Now, Bard has been superseded by Gemini. I asked the same question to it. What's the difference between interference and diffraction of light?
Quote
Interference and diffraction in light, while related, are distinct phenomena caused by different mechanisms:

Interference:

Occurs when two or more light waves interact with each other.
Requires coherent sources, meaning the waves have the same wavelength and are in phase (aligned peaks and troughs).
Can be constructive (bright areas) or destructive (dark areas) depending on the relative phase difference between the waves.
Creates distinct fringe patterns with alternating bright and dark bands.
Examples: double-slit experiment, Newton's rings.


Diffraction:

Occurs when a light wave encounters an obstacle or opening.
Caused by the bending of the wavefront due to secondary wavelets generated from different parts of the wave passing the obstacle.
Affects the wave's propagation by spreading it out beyond its original path.
Creates bending and fading around the edges of the obstacle.
Examples: light passing through a narrow slit, shadows with blurred edges.

It has shown some improvements.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #319 on: 20/02/2024 12:04:10 »
I also asked about the answer to same question according to Richard Feynman.
Quote
Interestingly, Richard Feynman had a unique perspective on the difference between interference and diffraction, suggesting that it's more a matter of context and usage than a clear physical distinction. He famously stated:

"No one has ever been able to define the difference between interference and diffraction satisfactorily. It is just a question of usage, and there is no specific, important physical difference between them."

Feynman argued that both phenomena arise from the same underlying principle ? wave interaction. What we call interference or diffraction depends on the number of wave sources involved:

Interference: When only a few sources (typically two) interact, we typically refer to it as interference. This leads to the characteristic fringe patterns observed in experiments like the double-slit experiment.

Diffraction: When we deal with a large number of sources (like the edges of an object), the interaction becomes more complex and diffuse. This is generally referred to as diffraction. The spreading and bending of light around edges exemplify this phenomenon.

While Feynman acknowledged the practical distinction in usage, he emphasized that both aspects arise from the same fundamental wave behavior. This perspective highlights the interconnectedness of wave phenomena and encourages deeper understanding beyond rigid labels.

It's important to note that while Feynman's view offers a nuanced perspective, many other physicists do differentiate between interference and diffraction based on the specific mechanisms involved. The table I provided earlier reflects this more common approach, which offers a clear framework for understanding both phenomena.

Ultimately, both perspectives are valid and have their own merits. Choosing the approach that best suits your learning style and level of understanding is key.
IMO it's a problem when two contradicting statements are said to be equally valid. Because the information content would be zero.
Note that one bit of information reduces uncertainty by a half.

Fortunately, it only appeared when it's forced to by my later question.
« Last Edit: 20/02/2024 12:24:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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