[self (OP)]

In the late 1960's and early seventies the University of Minnesota delivered an electron beam into one side of a tank of super cooled liquid Helium. On the other side of the tank they received numerous charges equal to about one third of the electron's charge. I understand the idea that an electron can not be divided but, what about the electron's cloud or field from which the electron arises? Can it be divided so as to spin off a portion so as to produce the one third charge as per the results of the experiment?

I have a model of electron flow which may naturally explain how these one third electron charges develop. The theory has a couple of considerations. One that electrons or the field of the electrons traveling in the beam do so by cylindrical wave which is forced by the second consideration which is that the individual virtual constituents of the field are oblong and bi polar. The second consideration allows the first consideration.

The last thing to consider is that a cylindrical wave forced into a cavity between Helium atoms should form a tornado in the cavity. The tornado consistently fed by the wave could form three smaller tornado embedded in the larger tornado, each carrying one third the charge of the electron, in theory. To visualize this think of a round dinner plate with three saucers equal distance around the plate. The saucer would get sheared off and forced out of the system and thus the results of the experiment may be explained.

[Bored chemist]

In the late 1960's and early seventies the University of Minnesota delivered an electron beam into one side of a tank of super cooled liquid Helium. On the other side of the tank they received numerous charges equal to about one third of the electron's charge.

Can you provide a reference?

[self (OP)]

Thanks for asking but no, I do not have references. A search for can the electron be divided or U of M liquid Helium experiments would likely return something useful.

[Kryptid]

Might this be related? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/08/000817080822.htm

[self (OP)]

Thanks, yes that link is related. A little different in that they are exciting the bubbles with light whereas the experiments I were referring to produced bubbles that carried less than electron charges without extra light stimulus.

[Colin2B]

A search for can the electron be divided or U of M liquid Helium experiments would likely return something useful.

So have you tried that? If not why not?
What is your source?

[Colin2B]

Might this be related? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/08/000817080822.htm

Possibly this also. https://phys.org/news/2015-05-electron.html  Can’t see a reference to 1/3 charge.
I know 2 electrons can come together in the ‘bubbles’
In the ref you provided there is no charge splitting just 2 parts to wavefunction.

[evan_au]

Perhaps the OP is referring to experiments with electron beams which demonstrated the existence of quarks?
- Some quarks do have a charge of e/3

However, quarks are so strongly bound to each other that it is not possible to separate out the individual quarks at the sort of energies we can generate
- Any attempt to separate quarks produces a shower of other particles and antiparticles; these are more stable than an isolated quark
- By looking at these "jets" of particles, it was possible to deduce information about the quarks,

So it is not the electron which has an internal structure, but it is the protons (and any neutrons) in the nucleus of the atoms which are composed of quarks.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_inelastic_scattering

[self (OP)]

Thanks for your interest. I am not looking for reference material as I have been thinking about this for fifty years. No quarks are being disturbed by these experiments.  I am looking for someone to falsify or point out why electrons could not possibly flow as a cylindrical wave or flow as a linear curving wave or that their field be composed of virtual bi polar oblong constituents as all of these are intrinsic to explaining the less than electron charges.

I agree with you that the electron does not have a steady internal structure but I think it does have a temporary structure which can collapse as described in my first post, "Is this a better model of the electron"?  The electron in this theory is a linear wave circling inside a linear wave cloud which would explain the squared function of the electron and also explain why the cloud does not interact with the Higgs field as does the electron.

[Colin2B]

....why electrons could not possibly flow as a cylindrical wave or flow as a linear curving wave ...
The electron in this theory is a linear wave circling inside a linear wave cloud

Can you explain what you mean by a cylindrical wave, a linear curving wave, a linear wave curving, and a wave cloud??

[self (OP)]

Thanks for asking, I believe I can describe those. A cylindrical wave is a type of linear wave used in mathematics and can apply to quantum field theory. If you just want to imagine a cylindrical wave it resembles an auger or long drill only without the solid center. If you cut long slits out of a garden hose and propelled it through the air with a counter clockwise spin, that would for a few seconds, resemble a cylindrical linear curving wave.

The idea is that the em field travels as a cylindrical wave because of the magnetic forces between the em field constituents limit other forms. That means the wave doesn't just swarm or congregate around the nucleus but that there is more of an orderly layered em field, more like an onion. If the wave cloud arrives as a cylindrical linear wave at the nucleus then it should be forced to abandon the cylinder but retain the linear curving and go round and round the nucleus like wrapping a ball of yarn. That is the wave cloud in this theory, linear waves tightly packed and mostly moving in unison. The Higgs field would treat the cloud as one em field.

If the onion represents the electron's cloud, all that part of the em field that is not the electron, then cut a little hole in the onion, and take a piece of onion and curve it around inside the hole. That is a linear curving wave inside of a linear curving field. The Higgs field would treat the curving wave inside the curving cloud as the wave squared which means the hole is the electron.

The cause is that the positive attraction pulls the linear curving waves down toward the nucleus and round and round they go giving the electron its intrinsic spin. Another factor to consider is that if the negative end which emits the photon is oriented inward, it cannot emit a visible photon because if it could emit, it would be into the cloud. There has to be a hole in the cloud as described for the photon to be set free from a downward oriented constituent of the em cloud or field. imho.

[Colin2B]

I am not looking for reference material as I have been thinking about this for fifty years.

so you should have a lot of references that would support your idea

I am looking for someone to falsify or point out why ......

at the moment you do not have a falsifiable theory. The details are vague and unclear. You may have a very clear idea of what you are trying to say, but there is not enough detail or experimental predictions to allow it to be evaluated.

Take this as an example:

The idea is that the em field travels as a cylindrical wave because of the magnetic forces between the em field constituents limit other forms.

A disturbance of the em field does travel as a cylindrical wave, but it’s particle is called a photon not an electron.
Also, you do not explain why “the magnetic forces between the em field constituents limit other forms”

Take this too:

That means the wave doesn't just swarm or congregate around the nucleus but that there is more of an orderly layered em field, more like an onion. If the wave cloud arrives as a cylindrical linear wave at the nucleus then it should be forced to abandon the cylinder but retain the linear curving and go round and round the nucleus like wrapping a ball of yarn. That is the wave cloud in this theory, linear waves tightly packed and mostly moving in unison. The Higgs field would treat the cloud as one em field.

If the onion represents the electron's cloud, all that part of the em field that is not the electron, then cut a little hole in the onion, and take a piece of onion and curve it around inside the hole. That is a linear curving wave inside of a linear curving field. The Higgs field would treat the curving wave inside the curving cloud as the wave squared which means the hole is the electron.

The cause is that the positive attraction pulls the linear curving waves down toward the nucleus and round and round they go giving the electron its intrinsic spin. Another factor to consider is that if the negative end which emits the photon is oriented inward, it cannot emit a visible photon because if it could emit, it would be into the cloud. There has to be a hole in the cloud as described for the photon to be set free from a downward oriented constituent of the em cloud or field. imho.

You do not explain:
What a wave cloud is
How em field can be layered - evidence from experiment?
Why a cylindrical wave would be forced to abandon the cylinder
How you can have a hole in an em field - again evidence from experiment
Why ‘The Higgs field would treat the curving wave inside the curving cloud as the wave squared’
Or why that means the hole is the electron
How does ‘the positive attraction pulls the linear curving waves down toward the nucleus’
Etc

You need a lot more detail on how these things happen and how they fit with the standard model - which makes very accurate predictions. Show how your model improves the accuracy of these predictions or makes new ones.
Lot of detail work to do before anyone can make meaningful comments, but as you’ve put a lot of effort into this it would be worth the extra work to formalise it and make it understandable.

[self (OP)]

Hi, thanks for your considerations.  I'll see if I can work through some of these problems. If I had all my references I would be a librarian by now. I just keep what is a mystery and what would work in my head. This work has many many ways to be evaluated that could be explored later. You ask why magnetic forces limit other forms. This work is from the point of view of what can you do with a field constructed of magnetic dominoes which most accurately reflect the dimensions of the electron's cloud constituents.  So standing them up in a ring you could build a tube and if gravity did not disturb it you could flex and bend and curve the tube, with limitations and those are the limitations I was speaking of. You could remove some parts without disturbing the structural integrity of the tube which is more or less what you can do with a cylindrical wave, if its parts were made of the same size constituents.

I have no confusion as to what is a photon and what is an electron but I have not heard of waves emitting photons.
For a photon to be emitted you need a particle, not a wave. Suppose I emit enough em field constituents to produce an electron and if I spread this wave out it would be long enough to orbit the nucleus a million times before the wave was finished arriving at the nucleus. That is what I call the electron cloud. It surrounds the nucleus like winding yarn on a ball where the ball is spinning and the yarn keeps coming. That is how the em field gets layered around the nucleus. You can do this with your life sized dominoes but if you do you will soon see why the cylindrical forces give way to linear curving forces and why they become bound by the surrounding magnetic forces in the domino next door.

That the electron has to be a hole in the field is not my idea as it was one of those things I read somewhere. What is my idea is how the hole forms and why. The weakest point in a field of wrapped linear waves is between the sides of the dominoes not the ends where they are most strongly bound. Just like in a ball of yarn, you can stick your finger in where the lines are most regular and where the bonds are the weakest.

The location of the electron is determined by the greatest strength of the positive field which is also the lowest point in the field. When the forces at the top of the field get drawn in the depression they pull sheets of the field into the hole where they develop into a field within the field, giving the electron its intrinsic spin. Like a plugged funnel in a body of water. Lift the funnel and the field fills in so that the electron can reappear elsewhere in the cloud.