[Bored chemist]

Not even a single word about space expansion.
They clearly discuss about galaxies expansions (I have found 15 times the word - galaxies).

I didn't see any mention of the expansion of galaxies. Just lots of talk about an expanding universe.

[Bored chemist]

Incidentally, do you understand that magnify does not mean the same as expand?
One means to make something look bigger the other means to make it actually bigger.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

The expansion of space itself causes those photons of light to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding.

Yes, your message is very clear.
However, I still don't understand why do you insist that only the expansion of space itself causes those photons of light to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding.
Do you agree that the expansion in space can't generate even one photon of light?
Actually, we have already agreed that we can't see any expansion in space. We only see the expansion in galaxies.
So, why is it so important to assume that the expansion in galaxies is due to the space expansion and not due to the expansion in galaxies?
Without galaxies, it is clear that we won't get any sort of photon of light.
So, all the photons are ejected from the galaxies.
Therefore, in any sort of theory, we should agree that we monitor the photons that had been ejected from the galaxy itself and not from the space expansion.
Actually the only key difference between the two theories is that in the space expansion theory - the space itself carry the galaxies, while in the galaxies expansion theory - the galaxies are moving though the space.
Please also remember that both theories fully meet Hubble law and constant.
In the article they even give an example of the following galaxy:
"It might surprise you to learn that the most distant galaxy we've ever observed, GN-z11, actually appears twice as large as a similarly sized galaxy that's only half the distance away from us. The farther away we look, beyond a specific critical distance, objects actually appear larger the farther away they get."
So, our scientists clearly verify that far away galaxy as it is expanding away from us at ultra high velocity. However, not even one word about expansion in space.
Hence, why are you so sure that if this galaxy was expensing away exactly at its current velocity and holding exactly the same features that we observe, its photons of light shouldn't get spread further apart if it was moving through the space??
In other words - If this galaxy is moving through the space - its photons of light shouldn't get spread further apart
While if it is carried by the space expansion than its photons of light should get spread further apart.
Can you please prove this statement?

[Bored chemist]

We only see the expansion in galaxies.

No. Galaxies are gravitationally bound. They don't expand.
What we see is an expansion of teh space between the galaxies.

Without galaxies, it is clear that we won't get any sort of photon of light.

No. That isn't clear at all.
In fact it's wrong.
We got lots of photons from the formation of hydrogen in the early hot dense universe.

So, all the photons are ejected from the galaxies.

No; see above

Therefore, in any sort of theory, we should agree that we monitor the photons that had been ejected from the galaxy itself and not from the space expansion.

Nobody said the photoones were "ejected... from the space expansion."
You made that up.

Please also remember that both theories fully meet Hubble law and constant.

Please remember that one of them breaches relativity.

So, our scientists clearly verify that far away galaxy as it is expanding away from us at ultra high velocity. However, not even one word about expansion in space.

OK, so you didn't understand it.
The reason why it looks twice as big is that the expansion of space acts a bit like a magnifying glass.

So, our scientists clearly verify that far away galaxy as it is expanding away from us at ultra high velocity. However, not even one word about expansion in space.

And not a single word about what they had for breakfast that day, because you don't include obvious or irrelevant stuff in every paragraph.

In other words - If this galaxy is moving through the space - its photons of light shouldn't get spread further apart
While if it is carried by the space expansion than its photons of light should get spread further apart.
Can you please prove this statement?

That's the wrong way of looking at it.
We see that the galaxy is oddly magnified.
If the light is just travelling through space, why would the photons be spread out in this way (in addition to the inverse square law)?
One alternative that makes sense is that teh expanding universe is responsible (among other things) for the incongruous large size of this galaxy.

Do you have a sensible altarnative explanation?

[Kryptid]

Yes, your message is very clear.

If it was clear, then why didn't you understand it? If you did, you wouldn't say ridiculous things like:

Do you agree that the expansion in space can't generate even one photon of light?

Hence, why are you so sure that if this galaxy was expensing away exactly at its current velocity and holding exactly the same features that we observe, its photons of light shouldn't get spread further apart if it was moving through the space??

You don't understand even the most basic forms of logic. Maybe go watch a car driving away from you and see if it looks like it's getting larger or smaller with distance.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Maybe go watch a car driving away from you and see if it looks like it's getting larger or smaller with distance.

This issue is very clear to me as you have already explained.

In a static, unchanging space, the average angular diameter of galaxies should always fall off the same way with distance. A galaxy that is twice as far away will look twice as small.

There is no need to prove the above statement
However, with regards to the following statement:

The expansion of space itself causes those photons of light to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding.

and

The reason why it looks twice as big is that the expansion of space acts a bit like a magnifying glass.

Your messages are very clear. However, how it really works?
The explanation is:

That extra spread makes distant galaxies look larger than they would if space was not expanding.

This is something that you need to prove.
Actually, did you read the following answer from Bored chemist:

No. Galaxies are gravitationally bound. They don't expand.
What we see is an expansion of teh space between the galaxies.

Therefore, the space expansion carry/move the galaxies with it, however it doesn't set any sort of expansion on the galaxy itself. ("They don't expand.")
Therefore, the following statement might not be correct: "The expansion of space itself causes those photons of light to get spread further apart".
How the the expansion of space itself could cause the photons of light from far away galaxy to get spread further apart while it has no impact on the galaxy itself?  (The galaxy don't expand due to the expansion in space)
Please prove that statment.

We see that the galaxy is oddly magnified.
If the light is just travelling through space, why would the photons be spread out in this way (in addition to the inverse square law)?
One alternative that makes sense is that teh expanding universe is responsible (among other things) for the incongruous large size of this galaxy.

Do you have a sensible altarnative explanation?

Sure, I have a very simple explanation for that.
It is not due to the space expansion or galaxy expansion.
Please forget the expansion!
It is all about the paths of light, as affected by black hole curvature.
https://galileospendulum.org/2011/06/29/black-holes-dont-suck/
It is stated that:
Outside the event horizon, paths of light are curved by the black hole’s gravity, but the light can continue on its merry way;
So, the BH acts a bit like a magnifying glass with its ability to spread apart the photons of light.
There are many BH in our universe.
However, if we look at a relativity close distance, the chance that the light would cross a BH is quite low.
Therefore, at a relatively low distance we see that A galaxy that is twice as far away will look twice as small.
However, as we look further away, the light is deflected by more and more BHs.
Therefore, the light from the furthest galaxy is getting deflected by the maximal no of BHs.
Therefore, we see it so big.

[Kryptid]

Remember when I said I was only going to explain it once? That was it.

If you had an understanding of basic physics, you would realize why a group of photons is not bound in the same way as the stars in a galaxy are.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

If you had an understanding of basic physics, you would realize why a group of photons is not bound in the same way as the stars in a galaxy are.

I have quite good knowlage in physics, but I still don't understand how the expansion of space itself causes group of photons of light of far end galaxy to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding.
We know clearly that the expansion has no impact on the real size of any galaxy in the Universe. It only expands the space between the galaxies.
So, please, how the expansion between the galaxies in the Universe could cause that group of photons of light to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding?
If you claim something, you need to prove it.
I have offered much better explanation for that phenomenon.
It is not based on my imagination. It is real:
https://www.space.com/8830-massive-black-hole-bends-light-magnify-distant-galaxy.html
Massive Black Hole Bends Light to Magnify Distant Galaxy
"A giant black hole spouting energy from inside a galaxy isacting like a cosmic magnifying glass, giving astronomers a clear view of an evenmore distant galaxy behind it."
Why do you reject the proved physics explanation for Black Hole that Bends Light to Magnify Distant Galaxy, while you insist that only the expansion can do it (without any physics backup).

Remember when I said I was only going to explain it once? That was it.

I'm ready to accept any real explanation/data/information in the first message. However, please do not assume that I will accept any sort of information without real physics backup.
Sorry, it is our scientists' obligation to use real physics in order to show/prove how the expansion in space could Magnify Distant Galaxy?

[Bored chemist]

Therefore, we see it so big.

Except that's not what you see with gravitational lensing.
You typically see a ring.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_ring

And that phenomenon is quite rare- it has to be lined up properly.
But all very distant objects appear bigger than they should.

So what you are saying is that every very distant galaxy has a perfectly sized and aligned black hole in between us and them, so that it appears magnified.

That's absurd, and I did ask for a sensible explanation, not a magic one.

I have quite good knowlage in physics

Why don't you use it?
It would have made this thread so much shorter.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Except that's not what you see with gravitational lensing.
You typically see a ring.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_ring
And that phenomenon is quite rare- it has to be lined up properly.

Yes, I fully agree with you.
I have used the idea of BH in order to show that it could Bend Light to Magnify Distant Galaxy.
It is stated:
"An Einstein ring, also known as an Einstein–Chwolson ring or Chwolson ring, is created when light from a galaxy or star passes by a massive object en route to the Earth. Due to gravitational lensing, the light is diverted, making it seem to come from different places. If source, lens, and observer are all aligned, the light appears as a ring."
So, if we use one massive BH it would set a ring.
However, if we will use less massive object as a star it should set a minor bend in the photon of light.
Therefore, in order to get real Magnify of Distant Galaxy we need much more than just one star.
Surprisingly, there is unlimited no. of stars (and BH) in the space between galaxies:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/10/most-of-stars-and-planets-in-universe.html
 "As many as half of all stars in the universe lie in the vast gulfs of space between galaxies, an unexpected discovery made in a new study using NASA rockets."
So, for any star in the galaxy, there is one outside.
Just think about the density of the stars in the space between the galaxies.
Therefore, as we look at a far away galaxy (at any direction) there is good chance that the photon of light need to cross several thousand or even millions of objects as stars or BH.
Those objects magnify the light from Distant Galaxy.
The further the galaxy is located, the more objects the photon of light should cross.
Therefore, the most distant galaxy gets the maximal lights magnify.

[Bored chemist]

OK, what you are now saying is that a bucket of broken glass will act as a magnifying glass.
Your ideas get sillier every day.

[Kryptid]

Therefore, at a relatively low distance we see that A galaxy that is twice as far away will look twice as small.
However, as we look further away, the light is deflected by more and more BHs.
Therefore, the light from the furthest galaxy is getting deflected by the maximal no of BHs.

Ha ha ha, wow! This may be just the most desperate ploy of yours I've seen yet.

I have quite good knowlage in physics

A statement that has been continually demonstrated to be wrong.

but I still don't understand how the expansion of space itself causes group of photons of light of far end galaxy to get spread further apart than if space was not expanding.

Ah, so you don't understand physics (or even basic logic) as well as you think you do. Are you serious? You really don't understand why an expanding space will cause objects in that space that aren't bound to each other to spread out? What in the world you think the words "expand" and "spread" mean?

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Ah, so you don't understand physics (or even basic logic) as well as you think you do. Are you serious? You really don't understand why an expanding space will cause objects in that space that aren't bound to each other to spread out?

Yes I fully understand why the galaxies are expanding/spread out from each other.

However, this is not the issue in our discussion. We discuss about expanding/spreading the light of each galaxy.

What in the world you think the words "expand" and "spread" mean?

Would you kindly advice if you agree with the following:
1. The expansion in the space doesn't expands or spread any individual galaxy in the whole Universe?
2. The expansion in space only expands the space between the galaxies?

If you agree with the above, would you kindly explain how the physics works at the expansion in space theory in order to expand/spread the light of far away galaxy, without expanding/spreading the galaxy itself?

[Kryptid]

If you agree with the above, would you kindly explain how the physics works at the expansion in space theory in order to expand/spread the light of the galaxy, without expanding/spreading the galaxy itself?

The answer is in reply #368.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

If you had an understanding of basic physics, you would realize why a group of photons is not bound in the same way as the stars in a galaxy are.

Would you kindly explain how a group of photons of far away galaxy that its size is fixed (no internal expansion or spreading over time) could expand/spread only based on the expansion in the space between the galaxies.

[Kryptid]

Would you kindly explain how a group of photons of far away galaxy that its size is fixed (no internal expansion or spreading over time) could expand/spread only based on the expansion in the space between the galaxies.

I honestly cannot believe you are asking me that question. Hmm, I wonder... how could expansion cause a group of objects that aren't bound to each other to spread out? What a mystery!

[Dave Lev (OP)]

I honestly cannot believe you are asking me that question. Hmm, I wonder... how could expansion cause a group of objects that aren't bound to each other to spread out? What a mystery!

We claim that the galaxy itself are not affected by the expansion of space.
So, the size of the galaxy is fixed and all the objects in the galaxy are bounded by gravity
Therefore, we can't consider it as a group of objects that aren't bound to each other.
Therefore, HOW the expansion in space between the galaxies could expand the light that is coming from a fixed size far away galaxy?
Please, do you have an answer or not?

[Kryptid]

Therefore, HOW the expansion in space between the galaxies could expand the light that is coming from a fixed size far away galaxy?
Please, do you have an answer or not?

Are photons bound to each other? Think about the answer to that question and you'll have the answer to the question that you've given me.

[Bored chemist]

Therefore, HOW the expansion in space between the galaxies could expand the light that is coming from a fixed size far away galaxy?
Please, do you have an answer or not?

Are photons bound to each other? Think about the answer to that question and you'll have the answer to the question that you've given me.

I think it's slightly subtler than that.
Are the photons bound to the galaxies?

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Are photons bound to each other? Think about the answer to that question and you'll have the answer to the question that you've given me.

Dear Kryptid

We know each other for quite long time.
It is very clear to me that you fully support the BBT and protect whatever our scientists claim.
However, at this discussion, they have a severe mistake.
Therefore, let me explain why I positively sure that the expansion in space can't magnify the light from far end galaxy.
Actually, it should do the opposite.
So, let's assume that we have a light detector that is aimed on a far end galaxy.
Its mission is to detect photons that the beam of light carries from that far end galaxy.
Let's also assume that there are no expansion in space and no massive objects.
Hence, based on the size of the detector and its sensitivity it can detect x no of photons from this far end galaxy.
Now, let's see the impact of the following:
1. Massive objects - The massive objects acts as a glass. It bends the beam of light
Therefore, more photons of light get to our detector. This activity magnifies that far end galaxy.
2. Expansion in space -
With regards to your question: Are photons bound to each other. The answer is: no.
The expansion in space actually separate/expand the photons from each other. Therefore, less photons get to our detector. The outcome is the opposite from magnify.
So, the expansion in space should reduce the no of photons of light that the detector gets from the far end galaxy.

Therefore, I wonder how it could be that our scientists claim that the expansion in space could increase the light from a far end galaxy.